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The missile is the most cost effective heavy weapon (not counting silly dragon squads) against av12. This includes threats such as Vendettas, Storm Ravens, (psy)Rifleman Dreads, side armor on battle wagons, side armor on Russes, front armor on Chimera, etc.

I must disagree on that one. The effectiveness of str8 against av12 is one in twelve when twin linked. That means that once every two games you're likely to wreck. Or alternatively, fire 12 missiles a turn for a confirmed kill. And for that str8 you pay a hefty point toll so I think it's the very opposite of being cost effective. I personally never like to waste my shooting phase on a statistical fluke. If I attack an av12 vehicle I make sure I do it with an effective weapon or I don't bother firing at it at all. If you're not likely to kill something then aim those pricey shots at something else. The only reliable way is to send dragons or seers after those vehicles, and that's a bit closer to being cost effective. Just ask yourselves what kind of real life general would choose to arm his troops with a weapon that hardly ever kills and cannot be easily spammed because of it's high cost.

dnptan wrote:But do you think the scatters are worth the 15 points over the regular shuricannons? 15 points for 1 extra attack and 12" range... and 1 less AP! Though that's not really an issue. Hmm I'll post a new list in a few. This is making me think!

Wholeheartedly yes. When you're within 24", you open yourself to Multimeltas, Psycannons, Blasters (I believe), and all manner of painful weaponry, not to mention being closer to anything beyond the target as well. The ability to maintain a 36" distance easily while still firing is why Eldar can run rings around armies like Deathwing/Grey Knights and whittle them down. This is especially true for your scoring serpents - if you've got avengers in a serpent, give that baby a scatter laser or EML and keep his precious, game-winning cargo safe.

One point to mention is that if you want to give your dragon wagons a firepower boost, due to having some odd number of points left over, it is better to give them an underslung cannon and TL cannon than a single scatter laser. Not only do you save 5 points, but assuming you disregard the TL catapult that is lost in the trade, you will get more S6 hits with dual cannons than a single TL scatter laser (2.25 + 1.5 = 3.75 hits vs 3 hits). Given that dragon wagons are designed to be up close and personal, and will probably remain empty and largely unimportant after their dragons are delivered, they are perfect to glide around within 24" delivering cheap but effective S6 punishment, unless you're against Psycannon spam or equivalent.

You may be tempted to adopt the double-cannon setup on serpents for Bladestorming avengers, too, since once again the serpent is there to deliver a single payload and, while not as suicidal as dragons, the serpent is much less of a threat once the troops are deployed. However, be careful with how far you take this plan, because there will always be a time where you need to maintain a safe distance (Psycannon spam comes up a lot here) and a scatter laser or EML is reliable for a solid range and good damage. Taking the cannon underneath in this case is perhaps a workable idea, in that you can coast along at 36" shooting the SL/EML until you need to deliver the bladestorming avengers, then go nuts with all guns ablaze. However, for potentially 1-2 turns of shooting, can you justify the 10 points? To me, still better than spirit stones.

Ok, here's the new list:

HQ:
*Seer: RoWarding, Fortune, Jetbike, Spear, Doom, Stones
*Autarch: Mandi, Fusion, Jetbike, Lance
*Warlcocks [6]: jetbikes [6], spears [2], enchance, embolden, destructor [2]

Elites:
*Fire Dragons [5]
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, TL Shc
*Fire Dragons [5] + Exarch: DBF, Crackshot
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, TL Shc

Troops:
*Dire Avengers [9]+Exarch: Double catapults, Bladestorm
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, EML, TLShcannon
*Dire Avengers [5]
-->Falcon: Stones, HF, EML
*Dire Avengers [5]
-->Falcon: Stones, HF, EML

Fast Attack: None

Heavy Support:
*Night Spinner
*Falcon [2] (as mentioned above)

I need 66 more points. What about a vyper?

Hi im new to the thread and havent read everything, but i can see here is some solid advice as well as good discussion. I will read up.
I havent been looking at eldar (or 40k) lists for some amount of time, but just noticed your thread.

I just want to add that i like your list and approach, its similar to the one i have been running at tournaments during the last 2+ years (all mech + jetcouncil with/without autarch, and with/without davu-falcons, stones on serpents etc etc, have used both all lances, all scatters, and all eml)

Just want to suggest, that you COULD also do something that would:
- add 3 extra tanks
- give you 5x tl EML
- and an extra dragon squad!
- while retaining a 8-man CC jet-council...!

Just purely to add inspiration i will show you my own list, did well at last tourney with almost same list. Its pretty 'cookie-cutter' (in the eyes of some, in the eyes of others pretty 'out-dated codex-crap'), but it works reasonably well.

HQ
Farseer w/ Jetbike, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing (185)
7 Warlocks w/ Jetbikes, 1 Enhance, 2 Embolden (340)

TROOPS
5 Dire Avengers, Serpent w/ TL EML (180)
5 Dire Avengers, Serpent w/ TL EML (180)
5 Dire Avengers, Serpent w/ TL EML (180)

ELITE
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ TL EML (200)
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ TL EML (200)
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon (190)

HEAVY
Fire Prism (115)
Fire Prism (115)
Fire Prism (115)

TOTAL: 2000

For those last 66 points, I would suggest... dropping the spirit stones and switching the EML to a scatter Laser on the dire avenger serpent in order to add two more vanilla jetbike warlocks to your council

Then you'll have 11 points left over if I'm correct. So, throw on another destructor, and enjoy.

Alright thanks! This list is an all comers then?

Well, I do see a lack of anti infantry, so you might struggle against IG or Nids, unless your seer council can get in there fast enough to put a stop to their silly ways. But from my eyes, you should be able to handle most anything you come across as long as you move carefully (But that's true of any Eldar army)

GLHF with your army

LordofMuck wrote:Hi im new to the thread and havent read everything, but i can see here is some solid advice as well as good discussion. I will read up.
I havent been looking at eldar (or 40k) lists for some amount of time, but just noticed your thread.

I just want to add that i like your list and approach, its similar to the one i have been running at tournaments during the last 2+ years (all mech + jetcouncil with/without autarch, and with/without davu-falcons, stones on serpents etc etc, have used both all lances, all scatters, and all eml)

Just want to suggest, that you COULD also do something that would:
- add 3 extra tanks
- give you 5x tl EML
- and an extra dragon squad!
- while retaining a 8-man CC jet-council...!

Just purely to add inspiration i will show you my own list, did well at last tourney with almost same list. Its pretty 'cookie-cutter' (in the eyes of some, in the eyes of others pretty 'out-dated codex-crap'), but it works reasonably well.

HQ
Farseer w/ Jetbike, Spirit Stones, Doom, Fortune, Runes of Warding, Runes of Witnessing (185)
7 Warlocks w/ Jetbikes, 1 Enhance, 2 Embolden (340)

TROOPS
5 Dire Avengers, Serpent w/ TL EML (180)
5 Dire Avengers, Serpent w/ TL EML (180)
5 Dire Avengers, Serpent w/ TL EML (180)

ELITE
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ TL EML (200)
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ TL EML (200)
5 Fire Dragons, Serpent w/ TL Shuriken Cannon, Shuriken Cannon (190)

HEAVY
Fire Prism (115)
Fire Prism (115)
Fire Prism (115)

TOTAL: 2000

You dont need 3 FD squads with a Seer Council. Having 3 Inadequate troop choices at 2000 points is bad. Eldar players play for objectives more than anything, and assuming atleast 1 wave serpent goes down the entire game if its objective based its probably a loss.

I also dont understand all the EML's when you have a seer council, 3 prisms, 3 FD sqads. You need more anti infantry/AV 11- , and the fact that your infantry squads to jack didily squat doesnt help the cause.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

SpringLevel wrote:
The missile is the most cost effective heavy weapon (not counting silly dragon squads) against av12. This includes threats such as Vendettas, Storm Ravens, (psy)Rifleman Dreads, side armor on battle wagons, side armor on Russes, front armor on Chimera, etc.

I must disagree on that one. The effectiveness of str8 against av12 is one in twelve when twin linked. That means that once every two games you're likely to wreck. Or alternatively, fire 12 missiles a turn for a confirmed kill. And for that str8 you pay a hefty point toll so I think it's the very opposite of being cost effective. I personally never like to waste my shooting phase on a statistical fluke. If I attack an av12 vehicle I make sure I do it with an effective weapon or I don't bother firing at it at all. If you're not likely to kill something then aim those pricey shots at something else. The only reliable way is to send dragons or seers after those vehicles, and that's a bit closer to being cost effective. Just ask yourselves what kind of real life general would choose to arm his troops with a weapon that hardly ever kills and cannot be easily spammed because of it's high cost.

Hurray for the BIGGEST flaw in the Eldar Codex!

TBH you summed it up quite nicely, and this is what is entirely responsible for Eldar Players dancing around the board.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Are Seer Councils a 3++ or a 4++. I was under the impression it was a 4++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dnptan wrote:That is true. I get schooled by IG easily though. They are beastly in this edition because they are so damn cheap (points wise). Every time I play them I get outnumbered as the melta tanks take down my falcons and the demolisher eventually gets my serpents.

But do you think the scatters are worth the 15 points over the regular shuricannons? 15 points for 1 extra attack and 12" range... and 1 less AP! Though that's not really an issue. Hmm I'll post a new list in a few. This is making me think!

Thanks a lot all! Esp TehScat and akaean

Mech IG are the reason eldar exist in small quantities now :(

This is because IG have a cheaper Codex and can bring more, and the more is more effective which makes it double more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dnptan wrote:Ok, here's the new list:

HQ:
*Seer: RoWarding, Fortune, Jetbike, Spear, Doom, Stones
*Autarch: Mandi, Fusion, Jetbike, Lance
*Warlcocks [6]: jetbikes [6], spears [2], enchance, embolden, destructor [2]

Elites:
*Fire Dragons [5]
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, TL Shc
*Fire Dragons [5] + Exarch: DBF, Crackshot
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, TL Shc

Troops:
*Dire Avengers [9]+Exarch: Double catapults, Bladestorm
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, EML, TLShcannon
*Dire Avengers [5]
-->Falcon: Stones, HF, EML
*Dire Avengers [5]
-->Falcon: Stones, HF, EML

Fast Attack: None

Heavy Support:
*Night Spinner
*Falcon [2] (as mentioned above)

I need 66 more points. What about a vyper?

Add More Lock Seers and or 3 jetbikes.

I dunno, I like my Bright Lances for stuff over AV 12, but I also run a mix of heavy weapons.

With the 66 points you could add in more Dire Avengers since 19 scoring troops feels pretty light.

Nice discussion. Hmm more DAs? They really aren't great without a bladestorming exarch. Muck, I am not a fan of your list TBH as there are too many dragons. I don't think a real eldar craftworld army would have that many dragons. Feels very tourney-ish and I like my fluff . I honestly dislike even having 2 FD squads, as I am not a big fan of repetitions.

I also don't like fielding guardians hence I'd like to bring some rangers. Well how about dropping my 5 man dragon squad [80 pts] and get a 7 man scorp squad with exarch, claw and outflank (good chance with autarch). Or an 8 (wo)man banshee squad with exarch and executioner. I'm leaning towards the scorps as the smurf save is so much more useful. It also makes more use of WS space.

Or I could drop the 6 man dragon squad (113) and get a full 10 man scorp/banshee squad. Thoughts? I would REALLY prefer having only one of each aspect (except DA for troops purposes - but the 2 DAVUs will never get out so for fluff purposes they arent there )
'

So, you changed your mind since last your post before this last one?

dnptan wrote:Nice discussion. Hmm more DAs? They really aren't great without a bladestorming exarch. Muck, I am not a fan of your list TBH as there are too many dragons. I don't think a real eldar craftworld army would have that many dragons. Feels very tourney-ish and I like my fluff . I honestly dislike even having 2 FD squads, as I am not a big fan of repetitions.

I also don't like fielding guardians hence I'd like to bring some rangers. Well how about dropping my 5 man dragon squad [80 pts] and get a 7 man scorp squad with exarch, claw and outflank (good chance with autarch). Or an 8 (wo)man banshee squad with exarch and executioner. I'm leaning towards the scorps as the smurf save is so much more useful. It also makes more use of WS space.

Or I could drop the 6 man dragon squad (113) and get a full 10 man scorp/banshee squad. Thoughts? I would REALLY prefer having only one of each aspect (except DA for troops purposes - but the 2 DAVUs will never get out so for fluff purposes they arent there )
'

If you wana play in tourneys you need that 2nd FD squad to take out any armor 12+ , terminators , GREY NIGHTS , or anything else thats bitchy.

Banshees > scorpians.

TBH Fire Dragons are the only thing that makes eldar competitive, and without them ashuradly we might have a dead codex. Every game im able to destroy vehicles and or heavy meq infantry with reliability. I bring 3 squads of FD's and 5 troop choices.

Yeah scorpions don't fit in competitive lists. In essence the only fluffy concepts that are also able to be competitive are saim hann jet armies or elfzilla which I personally don't like. I personally love jet armies but I always back them up with dragons who are clearly one of the best units in the codex and IMO, the game. Here is an example of a competitive jet army.

HQ:
farseer,bike,warding,witnessing,stones,doom,fortune-185
7xjetlocks,2xenhance,2xembolden,3xdestructor-370
farseer,doom-80(with DA)
Troops:
5xDA-60
-wave serpent,scatter-115
7xbikes,2xcannons,warlock,embolden,spear-227
7xbikes,2xcannons,warlock,embolden,spear-227
Elites:
5xfire dragons-80
-wave serpent,scatter-115
5xfire dragons-80
-wave serpent,scatter-115
heavy:
prism-115
prism-115
nightspinner-115

1999

Are Seer Councils a 3++ or a 4++. I was under the impression it was a 4++.

Council on foot are 4++ for Rune Armor. Council on jetbikes are 3+ 4++ since jetbikes confer a 3+ armor save. They can also Turbo boost for a 3++, however this prevents them from using fortune so is actually weaker than moving 18" and fortuning their 3+ 4++. Save the turbo boost 3++ for GJB squads taking objectives.

Ok guys, new list. I'm in the process of developing my fluff but basically my restrictions are:

No wraiths
No guardians (bikes, storm, defenders. WS/Falcon pilots are professional pilots)

As much as possible, only 1 aspect and 1 exarch for each represented aspect (farseers are warlock exarchs)

Ok on to the list!

HQ:
*Farseer [fortune, spear, bike, RoWa, Doom, stones]
*Autarch [mandi, bike, lance, fusion]
*Warlock (6) [jetbike, 1 enhance, with spear, 1 embolden with spear, 2 destructor, 2 vanilla]

*tactics: This eight man jetbike "council" will serve as my deathstar. Autarch provides much needed plasma grenades for that critical through-cover assault. a total of 4 ranged anti-tank allows me to pop transports and assault the units inside.

Elites:
*Fire Dragons (5 + Exarch) [Crack shot, DBF]
--Wave serpent [TL ShCan, Stones]
*Scorpions (7 + Exarch) [Shadowstrike, claw]
--Wave serpent [TL ShCan, Stones]

*tactics: Fire dragons do what they do best. Scorpions will arrive by outflank and flat-out so they can assault by turn 3. Scorpions will tie up artillery (dev squads, tau battlesuits) or bail the council out of tarpit (termies)

Troops:
*Avengers (5)
--Falcon [EML, stones, HF]
*Avengers (5)
--Falcon [EML, stones, HF]
*Avengers (9 + Exarch) [Dual catapult, bladestorm]
--Wave serpent [TL ShCan, Stones]

*tactics: The 2 DAVU falcons will be scoring, so only one DA squad will actually ever be on the table (1 aspect!) Bladestorm + Doom is yummy

Heavy Support:
*Falcon (2) as mentioned above
*Night Spinner

*tactics: The Night spinner will stay behind as the rest of the army moves forward. The spinner's main targets in the early portion are the vehicles, to force dangerous terrain. Later it can be anti-infantry especially good against scoring units. I will place all objectives on open ground for zero cover save.

---------

General tactics:

If I get first turn entire army focuses on one flank, and tears through one side of the enemy army, avoiding contact with the other half. If I get second turn it will be the same except I choose which side to attack; also against IG and Tau, I will go full reserves to avoid that first turn barrage of death. 24" turbo means I will be in striking range by turn 2 (12" start, first turn 24" second turn 12" disembark and shoot, total of 4 feet movement and the range of my infantry is 1 - 1.5 feet). If I'm lucky scorpions arrive and help out. Tank shock/Ram for turn 1 at 18-24" for 4+ cover save (str 7-9 attack against an enemies side or rear, str 6-8 attack on my front). Or you know, just a normal move. Seer council will attract a lot of fire power but putting wounds of FS/Autarch will help them stay alive with fortune as well.

Same general tactic as original, but less the dragons and less emphasis on vehicle fire power. I'm prepared to take a bashing on the scorpions

2000 points right? So, with the scorpions in reserve, you're deploying a council, 2 serpents, 2 falcons, 1 nightspinner. For 2000 points, that is not a lot of stuff on the table. The problem with mech (OH MY GOD MECH ISN'T PERFECT?!?!!) is that the fewer THINGS you have, the more it hurts when they get a turn to stun you. If the opposing player has enough dakka to "stun-or-better" 5 tanks per turn, most 2000 points mech lists will laugh it off, since they field 11. But your list only deploys 5 tanks, and while the holo fields will help, they simply make them the perfect target of "oh, so it can't shoot me next turn right? Ok, now for that night spinner..."

Since you are pretty half-assed on the mech, I'd suggest dropping it completely for this list. You have outflanking scorpions in a serpent, you have an autarch, you have a council... what does this point towards? Super sneaky War Walker play!

Drop the two falcons and the night spinner, pick up 3 squadrons of war walkers with double scatter lasers. They all have outflank from scout, they all come in on a 3+ with your autarch around, so there are a lot of S6 shots coming into a side armor near you! You'll have enough points to get some base EML/SL serpents for those troop DA squads, and maybe max out that scorpion squad. Lets see what it looks like.

Farseer, bike, RoWarding, fortune 130
Autarch, bike, mandi, power weapon, fusion gun 130
5 Warlocks, bikes, embolden, enhance, 2 destructor, 1 spear 268

5 dragons, exarch, serpent, TL cannon 192
10 scorpions, exarch, claw, shadowstrike, serpent, TL cannon 307

5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
10 avengers, exarch, dual cats, bladestorm, serpent, TL cannon 252

2 war walkers, dual SL 120
2 war walkers, dual SL 120
2 war walkers, dual SL 120

Total 1999.

Had to drop a warlock for points. I'd drop the bladestorm squad down to vanilla, but it suits your fluff. The 72 points would get 1 more walker and a third destructor in the council, so its not a huge loss. This list is fast, has a LOT of shooting, and very strong reserves with 3+ riolls. EMLs, dragons and council are all deployed turn 1 and all have the potential to open transports before the reserves arrive.

Why scorpions again? Also I tend to avoid falcon since they die fast to melta and only do a little more damage (sometimes) then serpents.

o_O Your Falcons shouldn't be close enough to be getting hit by meltas...

1/3 of your missions will be objectives... and you place half of the Objectives, your opponet places the other half. With 3 squads of troops (19 total) I would blow the heck out of your troops first to prevent you from winning. They are probably not going to survive the explosion of their transport going up like a roman candle. I then focus on the Dragons and Jetbike squad.

Ditch the Scorps for either Fire Dragons or get a 4th 10 man DA squad in a transport for 250pts and add +1 DA to the Falcons. Gives you 12pts to play with and 32 troops with 2 Exarchs (Duel Cats and Bladestorm) and two Wave Serpents with TL ShurCan and Stones.

You can upgrade one of the 6 man squads to an exarch for 2000pts on the head, or use those 12pts elsewhere.

This fits in with your self imposed Fluff and makes your army better.

Yeah falcons stay in the back. DAVU is better than dragon wagons for falcs, due to 48" range. You can use falcons to charge if you know there is no melta because they are one of the hardiest tanks in the game.

Scat, as for your list I like war walkers, I really do. However they are too static for my taste. I'm not a fan of gunline eldar. But once again your list has no spirit stones on any vehicles. I like spirit stones! They are very useful and avoid that problem with a disabled army you were talking about.

However that is a very good list, and someone else can make use of that. However sacrificing 2 falcons and 1 warlock, doom, stones, the night spinner and spear for 2 serpents with EMLs and 48 scatter laser shots (24 hits) isn't worth the loss of re-rolling to wound, faster relocation, 4 AP2 shots (2 hits), one large blast template (which eldar really need vs hordes, the extra body in the council and the movement!

So a little mathhammer: Let's say i'm fighting mech. With this setup, from the tanks I can fire 2 EMLs, and from the walkers 24 SL shots.

Now for simplicity if I glance a vehicle, it's no longer a threat for that turn.
vs AV 11, which is average for DE transports, SM transports and chimeras:

EML 1: 0.5 glance/pen
EML 2: 0.5 glance/pen
SL set 1: 2.7 glance/pen
SL set 2: 2.7 g/p
SL set 3: 2.7 g/p

Total: 4 disabled tanks. (SLs can't split shots)

2 pulse+EML 1: 1 glance/pen
2 pulse+EML 2: 1 glance/pen

Total: 2 disabled tanks.

So yes, in terms of both damage and tank disabling, your list is superior. Against infantry, your list is superior. However the war walkers are not going to survive for very lone. AV 10 means they can be brought down by marine fire. No cover save because they are walkers, unless you are lucky enough to have cover for each and every squad.

On the other hand the falcons can actually take shots and distract the enemy army. When it comes down to it, Eldar should play more defensively, as our rapidly aging codex prevents us from actually having numbers to our advantage.

For reference, it takes a mere 35 points to have a rhino. Yet this rhino can carry a squad with 5 marines, a sarge with a powerfist which is around 90 points. Sending one rhino next to the walker squad means the walkers will get tied up for one turn, and probably die. 120 points of walkers disabled by 125 points of marines, and will die in 2 turns.

Alternitively tau battlesuits can lay the hurt on the walkers. the missile pod will make minced meat of a walker squadron.

A chimera with plasma guardsmen will probably not die to a round of scatter fire. Take into account the average mech guard army has up to 10 of these, and if one approaches the walkers they will get stomped. They're cheaper too.

Oh and they are vulnerable to small arms fire. 10 fire warriors with 20 S5 shots can destroy the squadron. Each glance will disable a walker and 2 glances will disable the squad. even with cover, the fire warriors will cause 1.7 glances. Fire warriors!

So what I'm trying to say is, yes the walkers can lay down the hurt and yes they are relatively cheap. However as eldar you will get outnumbered. It is inevitable. And when facing numbers the best approach is to run away, like a good little eldar. Wolfpacking is, in my opinion, better than having an absurd amount of str 6 shots.

Upgrading 5-man avengers squads isn't making the army better. Its making troops that are never intended to leave their box better. The only time DAVU squads (Dire Avenger Vehicle Upgrade) leave their transports is when those transports blow up, or its irrelevant/important (they're not going to claim an objective, they need to shoot dead 1 last guy, whatever). The exact reason 5 man avenger squads are used almost exclusively in mech lists as troops is because of their cost efficiency, so padding the unit is to no advantage. Better off buffing the dragons, and even that is pro-list taboo. Plus, he only wants 1 exarch per aspect in the army, and he likes his Scorpions.

The problem with the list is that, at its core, it has an expensive seer council, with an added expensive Autarch, then an expensive scorpion squad, and two expensive tanks in the form of falcons. There is a lot of expensive things, and its hard to fit the forces you NEED around the toys you HAVE.

Biktom,

you are correct that I am sorely lacking in troops. However falcons and serpents are very hardy things. If the enemy focuses fire on them, then it allows my army to take his scary troops down. The thing with eldar is we only need 1 troop to win. Our 24" moving tanks can, if played properly, contest every single enemy-held objective. Assuming they have 4 troops, I will need 4 tanks to contest. 24" is a very large range, and from the middle of the board, I can reach 52% of the board! (circle with 2 foot diameter).

So yeah, sneaky eldar and objective nabbing turn 5 is a trademark. Less troops is a problem, that's true. However less troops means more scary stuff to hurt your troops. Only another eldar or dark eldar can pull off the contesting game efficiently.

Plus, if you've played a game against falcons you know that they are, next to the monolith, the most difficult tank to take down. They can also move 24" and are scoring units.

Coming in a bit late to this thread, but will throw in my .02 on a few general things you have in all of your lists:

First off, question: An Autarch does have Plasma Grenades, but I've not seen anywhere that bonus would extend to the Seer Council. Does anyone know where the relevant rule can be found?

Based on your last bit of tactics, you are using Plasma to go after something in cover. I may be a bit too cautious, but each Seer Council/Autarch that enters difficult terrain triggers a Dangerous Terrain Test. This is rolled on a per model basis and kind of easy to lose expensive models. Charging into cover is something I'd only do as a last resort as I don't want to lose models to this and I'm attacking last (as I don't think Plasma Grenade effects will extend to the Seer Council, but I hope I'm wrong on that point).

As much as I like them, my Scorpions just aren't played anymore. They simply can not perform their function in this edition. The only way I'd even remotely consider them is taking the minimum size w/ the Exarch/Outflank upgrade just so I can outflank a Wave Serpent. And even in this case, I think it is overspending for what you really get back.

The big use for the Bikeseer is against mech lists. They go up and try to multi assault parking lots. In an absolute pinch, you can have the Autarch and Farseer break off in the movement phase so you can try and shoot at 3 separate tanks in a single turn. Also, you can be assured to assault three tanks if they are spaced out properly. The Autarch as Haywire, so you'd ideally want him to go after any tank that was stationary. Additionally, you have to consider how prevalent Psychic Hoods and other defenses are in your area. A Bikeseer is tough, but not that tough without Fortune. And with your setup, your army is pretty much gutted if that unit gets crippled. You can definitely go into Reserve, but you still have to weather a single turn of firing w/o Fortune in this fashion. Albeit, you can mitigate what shoots at you this way.


Fire Dragons are well known to work, no more needs to be stated.

I don't think you need 2 Falcons w/ min sized Avenger units inside. Falcons are durable, but they really are not offensive. It may seem like they are with the Pulse Laser/EML combo, but most opponents will shoot it and likely get a shaken result (thank you HF and Stones), then move on to another target. You have two of them and that is a lot of points that likely won't be firing. I've come to like using one Falcon (with your setup) and 5 Avengers, but I still cringe a bit at how expensive that combo is. If you really want to use your setup, however, I'd recommend Eldrad getting in one of the Falcons. By setting up to get cover saves, Eldrad's 2xFortune can absorb a fair amount of your opponent's shooting before he realizes just how useless shooting at Fortuned Falcons are.

The full size DA squad is always decent utility. Not sure Bladestorm is necessary, but each person has their own playstyle on this. But, I'm still on the fence about needing an Exarch at all in this unit.

I have no real advice for the Nightspinner as I am yet to use it. However, it was a pain to play against with my Orks.

All in all, I think your latest list has too many expensive units and too much has to go just right for you in order to win. I've played lists similar to yours and it's always a huge uphill battle. If I had any advise to give specifically to play your latest list, I'd recommend dropping the Autarch and pick up Eldrad. To offset the points, the Scorpions are dropped in favor of another small unit of Dragons or Eldar Jetbikes.

Best of luck. Play a few games with your army and let us know what you've learned.

Sarigar speaks the truth - this list is pretty much as good as its going to get while you still use all of the expensive things at the same time. Any changes will require dropping either the scorpions, the falcons, the council, the autarch, or some combination of the above. All points would then be used on the efficient core units (DAVU serpents, dragons, prisms, walkers) probably starting with the troops.

dnptan wrote:Biktom,

you are correct that I am sorely lacking in troops. However falcons and serpents are very hardy things. If the enemy focuses fire on them, then it allows my army to take his scary troops down. The thing with eldar is we only need 1 troop to win. Our 24" moving tanks can, if played properly, contest every single enemy-held objective. Assuming they have 4 troops, I will need 4 tanks to contest. 24" is a very large range, and from the middle of the board, I can reach 52% of the board! (circle with 2 foot diameter).

So yeah, sneaky eldar and objective nabbing turn 5 is a trademark. Less troops is a problem, that's true. However less troops means more scary stuff to hurt your troops. Only another eldar or dark eldar can pull off the contesting game efficiently.

Plus, if you've played a game against falcons you know that they are, next to the monolith, the most difficult tank to take down. They can also move 24" and are scoring units.

Ok well if theres 5 objectives , and you capture one, you wont win rofl.

Please bear in mind alot of times with objectives if you let a space marine or tyranid or really any army capture it, they will spread out FNP Metlta units out over a large area.....so you wont be able capture the objective because your skimmers cant be within 1' of the enemy models that take over a 6'+ radius.

And no, falcons arnt hard to take down. If your player is dumb yea, but Lascannons, meltas, and ordinance, and close combat can all make short work of a falcon.

You need atleast 3+ troops I would say atleast 4 to have a viable 2k list , and thinking otherwise is foolish.