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Hi guys,

So I'm continuously trying to make a list that fits in my craftworld's fluff. Here is my latest version at 2000 pts.

HQ:
*Seer: RoWarding, Fortune, Jetbike, Spear
*Autarch: Mandi, Fusion, Jetbike, Lance
*Warlcocks [5]: jetbikes [5], spears [2], enchance, embolden, destructor [2]

Elites:
*Fire Dragons [5]
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, EML, TLShcannon
*Fire Dragons [5] + Exarch: DBF, Crackshot
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, EML, TLShcannon

Troops:
*Rangers [5]
*Dire Avengers [9]+Exarch: Double catapults, Bladestorm
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, EML, TLShcannon
*Dire Avengers [5]
-->Falcon: Stones, HF, EML
*Dire Avengers [5]
-->Falcon: Stones, HF, EML

Fast Attack: None

Heavy Support:
*Night Spinner
*Falcon [2] (as mentioned above)

----------Pts: 1999--------
Tactics:

Council:
So I clearly have a deathstar unit. Seer council + autarch will form the front of the warhost. 3 Spears and the fusion gun give me roughly 2 penetrations vs av12 at 6" range, which will hopefully be enough to blow it up and force the units inside to come out and be assaulted. The destructors are there to allow me to flame units if needed, and the autarch provides much needed AP as well as plasma grenades (yay). Embolden allows me to forego to runes of witnessing and gives me a 99.5% chance to get fortune off.

The autarch allows me to put all my units in reserve vs a gunny army if I get turn 2. He has a laser lance and mandis, giving him 5 str 6 power attacks on the charge. I have to play this assault carefully as the council can't afford to be tied up. The assault lets me pull off a good 15 witchblade-y attacks and 5 str 6 power attacks for a total of 11 wounds, 3 of which are power attacks vs MEQ. Outside charge I'll have 9 witchblade-y attacks and 4 str 3 attacks, giving me a reasonable 6 wounds vs MEQ with enhance. This means I can tackle squads up to 10 members strong and have an 80% chance of killing them off in their phase. Perfect for that rhino with 10 marines!

Tanks:
The tanks will roll in taking pot shots at the enemy's flank as I attempt to outmaneuver the opponent. The point is too use my 48" range to keep out of range of the smaller stuff, while taking shots at whatever can hit 48" or more. Serpents will be at the front to absorb those pesky str 9 lascannon shots. They're more expendable than the falcons which can fire 3 str 8 shots if moving slow.

The serpents have TL EMLs and SHcannons to allow massive anti-personnel firepower when they bring the dragons or avenger squad (big) up close. The falcons will stay back for fire support with the DAVUs. The Nightspinner has two jobs: to harass hordes and to pysch the enemy out by touching his tanks. The dangerous terrain test of the nightspinner on an AV14 LR means that i ahve a 1/6 chance of immobilising him as opposed to the 37.5% of hurting with a BL. Pretty good alternative IMO. The spinner will stay away from LOS to prevent enemy fire.

Troops:
Dragons are pretty self explanatory. One squad has no exarch as I only want one exarch/aspect in my army. This squad is general antitank, antiheavy/MC. The one with the exarch can fry stealths as well. The 2 DAVUs will disembrak only if the falcon is needed elsewhere, like to contest an objective. The other DA squad is for anti-termies and basically massed firepower. The rangers are there for fluff purposes and will likely babysit an obj near the spinner.

As a final note, all units cost around 300 pts except the rangers [95] and HQ [600]. This means that all my units are roughly equal in points value and hopefully my opponent will waste ammo at my council before hurting my tanks. This list uses the SC as a firepower sponge so that my tanks can stay afloat and do objective hax. In the end, the council doesn't score so if it prevents the contesters and scorers from dying, it's worth the points just for the diverted firepower.

Thoughts? Thanks for reading!
So that's my list. Hope to hear your comments!

I'll start by saying that it looks pretty good . Except for a few areas you aren't wasting points and it should treat you well in games.

lets get into some helpful criticism though, as thats why you posted!

underslung shuri cannon on the wave serpents is sadly not twin linked. I would save the points and just keep the tl shuri catapult.

I don't like the Fire Dragon Exarch, he costs over 20 points more than a regular fire dragon. I'd also keep the Fire Dragon Wave Serpents as cheap as possible. They attract a lot of aggro for carrying those nasty melta gunners. Don't invest more points than necessary in the squad or Transport.

Pathfinders are awful. Ditch them. Guardian Jetbikes are better to support the council with, and they make better objective grabbers with their awesome speed.
(129) 3 Guardian Jetbikes + Warlock- cannon, spear, embolden
By far the best non mechanized troop choice in the codex

You should also look to finding enough points to get that council up to 7 or 8 members. Just vanilla Warlocks for 45 points a piece should do.

shaving upgrades, dropping your Bladestorm squad possibly down to DAVU (bladestormers are really lackluster without doom support) should get you enough points. I'd consider dropping spirit stones as well. Really bleed your list for those points.

How does the Autarch work for you? I find it difficult to believe that hes worth his weight in warlocks, you may consider nuking him for those points as well.

I agree, the list looks pretty solid. Good to see you actually thought about what works AND WHY instead of just battleforcing it up. Stick around on the forums, we need more people like you.

I see your reasoning for the DB flamer dragon squad, but there are better alternatives. Triple-flamer storm guardians take the same wave serpent, are scoring, and generally suit the role of template delivery better. Plus, you have the council's destructors if you really need anti-stealth.

On the note of the council...

3 Spears and the fusion gun give me roughly 2 penetrations vs av12 at 6" range, which will hopefully be enough to blow it up and force the units inside to come out and be assaulted.

Not in the same turn, I hope you know. If you shoot the dedicated transport, bust it open, you cannot assault the bailed out units. In fact, since you destroyed the target of your shooting, you cannot assault ANYTHING with your 6" move, you'll have to coast around and generally be not-locked in combat.

The art of seer council assault is to multi-assault a nice juicy squad along with as many vehicles as you can. Put as many hits on the vehicles as you need, and whatever you do, keep the squad you assault alive. After you bust up all those transports on your assault, you'll still be locked in combat with that other unit (which hopefully didn't break and/or kill any warlocks back) and you can pile in to finish them off in THEIR turn.

If you destructor spam a squad in shooting, and it breaks and flees out of assault range, your council is not going to get to assault at all that turn. It takes a wise commander to know when to shoot and when to just walk up casually ready to assault.

A DAVU Falcon with EML and HFs is 230 points, which is literally 2 prisms/nightspinners. You seem to like them, I've personally fallen out of love with falcons a lot recently, but do note that even though they are mobile, flexible, scoring and tough, you pay a premium for every bit.

The autarch really needs to go for a power weapon over the laser lance. The fusion gun replaces half of the lance's power, and long combats is where a seer council with their amazing fortuned saves shines. I see why you like the autarch, and in 2000 points they start becoming viable, but even still he may be better off taking a back seat to more warlocks in this list.

Serpents have a 48" range on the EML, use that to your advantage. Don't push yourself within 24" to use a BS3 gun that can't even reliably kill guard in carapace armor. 12" move, 48" missile, keep them alive and scoring.

Bladestorming avengers need doom support to be scary, and you need more than one squad to make them really worth taking. I'd leave them vanilla and spend the points on the council or round up more points for another serpent or GJB squad.

TehScat wrote:I see your reasoning for the DB flamer dragon squad, but there are better alternatives. Triple-flamer storm guardians take the same wave serpent, are scoring, and generally suit the role of template delivery better. Plus, you have the council's destructors if you really need anti-stealth.

On the note of the council...

3 Spears and the fusion gun give me roughly 2 penetrations vs av12 at 6" range, which will hopefully be enough to blow it up and force the units inside to come out and be assaulted.

Not in the same turn, I hope you know. If you shoot the dedicated transport, bust it open, you cannot assault the bailed out units. In fact, since you destroyed the target of your shooting, you cannot assault ANYTHING with your 6" move, you'll have to coast around and generally be not-locked in combat.

I thought that part sounded a bit off, so I have scampered through my rulebook, and I have wonderful news for you! (Or terrible) Pg 67 of the 5th edition rulebook, above the side panel saying "Dedicated Transports" specifically states that if the transport is destroyed from shooting, you may assault the unit that came out of it (Though you can not shoot them)

Just thought I would clear that up.

list looks solid, advice above about FD's , Locks, Jetbikes>Pathfinders is all good stuff.

I'm on the page, I've got the side panel, but can't find the part about being shot - the entire panel talks specifically about force allocation, deployment and transport capacity.

Ah, there it is, above the box. You can assault disembarked passengers if you shot the vehicle. Of course, this means you still need the passengers to disembark in such a way that you can reach them (which may be complicated by wrecks and access points on vehicles), but if they explode its not an issue.

Very glad you bought this up, now its time to make my Ork friend cry... I just took his word for it when I returned to the game from hiatus pre-5th.

Hey there thanks for the replies you guys!

Unfortunately I can't get guardian jetbikes for 2 reasons: 1) It's expensive and 2) It's against my fluff. The idea of civilians fighting just doesn't bode well with me.

As for the FD, It's hard to resist the lure of the DBF+Crackshot! Do you really think I should drop it? Giving the group versatility can't be that bad can it?

@TehScat
"The art of seer council assault is to multi-assault a nice juicy squad along with as many vehicles as you can. Put as many hits on the vehicles as you need, and whatever you do, keep the squad you assault alive. After you bust up all those transports on your assault, you'll still be locked in combat with that other unit (which hopefully didn't break and/or kill any warlocks back) and you can pile in to finish them off in THEIR turn." Oh my god I love you.

The triple flamer storm guardian squad is a one-trick pony IMO. The FD exarch makes the squad a bit more fersatile and makes them less predictable.

As for the Shuricannons, I didn't know it wasn't TL, which totally sucks. However in dropping off the FDs and BS DAs, I will be within 24", which is perfect for anti infantry str 6 shots and that juicy pinning EML.

The rangers are getting so much hate! Haha! Hmm is there any other alternative to them besides guardian bikes? I don't like sending civilians to battle. I haven't heard much on the night spinner - does that mean it's a good choice? I don't own one yet so I haven't tested them. Thanks all for the comments, keep them coming! My list is always changing.

Dire Avengers are aspect warriors, and they're not half bad when given doom support in a bladestorm squad, or locked up in a serpent as a plain 5-man. Other than that, its civilians or loners.

Storm guardians are a one-trick pony, but they're really good at it. And at the end of the day, so are fire dragons. Since both will do amazing damage against light infantry, the trade off is scoring/numbers/assault vs anti tank flexibility. For a pure stealth/MSU hunter squad, the storm guardians are great as if they survive the turn after they disembark, they can still hop back in the serpent and make it scoring. You also lose very little firepower from a few wounds on the storm guardians, since the templates do the damage, so losing a few models won't bother you assuming you make the Ld8 save, whereas dragons drop 20% for every unsaved wound. At the end of the day, its up to you which you will need more and probably won't make too huge a difference either way.

OK guys, I reworked the list a bit and got rid of my rangers (sniff). So I'm down 1 scoring unit and buffed up seer to get doom (for DA bladestorming) and 2 more jetbikes. Here's the updated list:

HQ:
*Seer: RoWarding, Fortune, Jetbike, Spear, Doom, Stones
*Autarch: Mandi, Fusion, Jetbike, Lance
*Warlcocks [7]: jetbikes [7], spears [3], enchance, embolden, destructor [2]

Elites:
*Fire Dragons [5]
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, EML
*Fire Dragons [5] + Exarch: DBF, Crackshot
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, EML

Troops:
*Dire Avengers [8]+Exarch: Double catapults, Bladestorm
-->Wave Serpent: Stones, EML
*Dire Avengers [5]
-->Falcon: Stones, HF, EML
*Dire Avengers [5]
-->Falcon: Stones, HF, EML

Fast Attack: None

Heavy Support:
*Night Spinner
*Falcon [2] (as mentioned above)

----------Pts: 2000--------
Losses: rangers[5], Dire Avengers[1], Shurcannons from serpents [3]
Gains: Warlocks (Vanilla on bike) [2], Doom + Spirit Stones

Tactics will be the same. I am hesitant about the doomseer, as the 45 points for stones+doom isn't going to pay off vs mech armies, as it is going to be rare to see enemies out in the open. My original plan with the BStorm DAs was to clean up the rabble after dragons make things go boom. Basically the setup is: Dragons get into position to pop transport. If it is heavy (land raider, etc probably carrying terminators or FNP dudes) bring second Dragon squad with exarch to clean up. If it is light (guardsmen, orks, SMs or even terminators) bring out the dire avengers and the second Dragon squad can pop a non transport vehicle.

But this is good too. The rangers had no real place in that list combat-wise. I love the models though, and cheap (relatively) 2+ save objective sitters isn't half bad.

Your tacits and list are competitive and based on your personal play style. The HUGE flaw in your list currently (if you compete in a tournament) is only 3 scoring units and lack of anti-Infantry. Your strength is a deathstar CC unit and 6 AV 12 vehicles!

One way to solve this is to add scatter lasers to your wave serpents instead of EML's.

I also think stones on your wave serpents is a waste of points.

Your farseer needs runes of witnessing...fortune NEEDS to go off.

This is a heated discussion, and its NOT black and white and more grey. Basically the heart and sole of the Mechdar army is in the Wave Serpents ability to susstain large amounts of incomming shots while dishing out a decent amount of damage. Right now it seems like your putting alot of importance on your dire avengers to take out infantry, which just wont happen and shouldnt happen because if you trade a DAVU squad for another squad your ability to control obectives is gone, especially when only one squad is combat effective and the other two will be in falcons on the back of the bord.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I also added up ur list and ur 38 points short.

Smitty0305 wrote:Your farseer needs runes of witnessing...fortune NEEDS to go off.

Embolden affects Psychic tests. Fortune has a 1/12 to fail, and embolden makes that 1/144. Witnessing is a waste of points.

The fire dragon's serpents don't need EMLs. Keep them with TL cannons, nice and cheap. You don't need stones on every vehicle - for the most part, a stunned vehicle is about as good as a shaken vehicle, and you've invested 50 points into those "what if" situations.

How about this as a list?

Farseer, RoWarding, fortune, spear, bike 128
Autarch, mandi, fusion, power weapon, bike 130
9 warlocks, bikes, 2 enhance, 2 embolden, 3 destructor, 2 spear 481

5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180
5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180

5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180

nightspinner 115
3 war walkers, double scatter lasers 180
3 war walkers, double scatter lasers 180

Total 1999

Ok, so this list still has the council with your autarch, for fluff. It still has 2 dragon wagons. Instead of falcons, we've saved 50 points per tank and just made them serpents - yes, you lose the pulse laser shots, but the EML is twin linked so you only miss out on 0.5 S8 hits per turn. You lose all the stones off the transports. Your bladestorming avengers drop down to a vanilla squad. However, you gain 48 scatter laser shots per turn from outflanking war walkers (3+ reserve rolls from autarch), and two extra models in the jetbike council, with power redundancy and spears for wound allocation and transport lovin'.

Do walkers fit your fluff? How much do you really like falcons? If you could handle dropping the Autarch, you could change one serpent for a falcon and use the leftover points for a guideseer to make it TL on all 3 shots per turn.

TehScat wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:Your farseer needs runes of witnessing...fortune NEEDS to go off.

Embolden affects Psychic tests. Fortune has a 1/12 to fail, and embolden makes that 1/144. Witnessing is a waste of points.

The fire dragon's serpents don't need EMLs. Keep them with TL cannons, nice and cheap. You don't need stones on every vehicle - for the most part, a stunned vehicle is about as good as a shaken vehicle, and you've invested 50 points into those "what if" situations.

How about this as a list?

Farseer, RoWarding, fortune, spear, bike 128
Autarch, mandi, fusion, power weapon, bike 130
9 warlocks, bikes, 2 enhance, 2 embolden, 3 destructor, 2 spear 481

5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180
5 dragons, serpent, TL cannon 180

5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180
5 avengers, serpent, TL EML 180

nightspinner 115
3 war walkers, double scatter lasers 180
3 war walkers, double scatter lasers 180

Total 1999

Ok, so this list still has the council with your autarch, for fluff. It still has 2 dragon wagons. Instead of falcons, we've saved 50 points per tank and just made them serpents - yes, you lose the pulse laser shots, but the EML is twin linked so you only miss out on 0.5 S8 hits per turn. You lose all the stones off the transports. Your bladestorming avengers drop down to a vanilla squad. However, you gain 48 scatter laser shots per turn from outflanking war walkers (3+ reserve rolls from autarch), and two extra models in the jetbike council, with power redundancy and spears for wound allocation and transport lovin'.

Do walkers fit your fluff? How much do you really like falcons? If you could handle dropping the Autarch, you could change one serpent for a falcon and use the leftover points for a guideseer to make it TL on all 3 shots per turn.

Hmm I guess embolden does in fact do that, good point.

As far as 6 walkers yea it looks cool but if your gona bring 6 walkers you might as well bring Eldrad...because guide makes them abundantly more effective.

Very true, in fact you could adjust the list to drop the autarch and maybe only 1 warlock in order to bring eldrad, and sit him in a serpent with some avengers. The issue then is that if you have one serpent with Eldrad, then that serpent will get shot a lot more than the others, and you'll probably need to deploy the walkers close to him since getting his serpent to the walkers in order to guide them is unreliable if they outflank. But sure, if going for a gunline, then Eldrad with 2 walkers squadrons nearby is amazingly effective.

I just feel that with the autarch, the feel of the army really lends to those outflanking war walkers, even if they effectively suicide. Having a fortuned council and 6 tanks on the table, the walkers are the softest thing to be shot by a long margin, so deploying them at the start is probably going to give them hell.

I reckon that including the Avatar in the HQ would be a big help. And also, "warcocks"?

thefarseerofnorthryde wrote:I reckon that including the Avatar in the HQ would be a big help. And also, "warcocks"?

uhhh Avatar would compleatly destroy the synergy in this list.


As far as the original posters list I think its a competitive list, and if he practices with it and plays it well its a good list.

Wow! That's a lot of input!

Scat, I have to disagree with the stones being useless. 50 points is a great price to pay for insurance to be able to move 24" for contesting on turn 5. Additionally, an immobile tank is a dead tank for eldar. Even if I'm shaken, I can move 13" to claim that 4+ obscured cover save!

Your list is good, and I did use war walkers for a few games (they were awesome with outflank). Unfortunately when I faced guard they failed miserably. The mobility is really a big plus in my book.

Scatter lasers are an interesting choice Smitty. 4 str 6 shots do give the serpents a lot of anti-infantry, however the tradeoff is my 5 long range 48" tank busting ability. I think in this case the range trumps volume of shots as I want to be able to keep my distance to use speed to my advantage. for an extra 5 points I get the ability to pin as well! But the lasers are worth considering. But dropping falcons and dropping EMLs means I lose a considerable (9 str 9 shots at 48") AT. There are tanks that are difficult to approach with the dragons, like some IG Russ setups and Tau hammerheads.

I plan on divide and conquer tactics. Let me explain:

For aggressive (assault-based) armies, or if I get first turn, I put everyone on the board, fortune the seer council, move serpents up 12" and falcons up 6". Starting at the absolute limit of 12" from the starting point, this allows me to have my tanks within range of the enemy starting point. To illustrate:

[n] - spinner, [f] - falcon, [w] - serpent, * - warlock, autarch, seer in council, [s] - seer, . - placeholder for "space"

Deployment:

----------------------- enemy zone

12-

24-

36-

48-

60- [w] [f] [w] [f] [w] [s]
[n].................................. *******
-----------------------my zone

Seer casts fortune on bike squad, and squad turboboosts 18" diagonally. Seer joins squad moving 12"

Movement:

----------------------- enemy zone
--max range of falcons--
12-

24-

36-

48- [w].....[w].....[w]
........**[f] ** [f] **
60-.........*.......*
[n]
-----------------------my zone

This allows all the tanks to shoot without obstruction. Notice how the council is "hugging" the tanks from behind. Now they have moved 18" for the 3+ cover save, and the seer joined them so is now in their group. They move diagonally to achieve this. (If i can't move in assault after turbo, not sure about this, then i dont need the 3+ c save but the formation will be the same).

Assault Phase:

----------------------- enemy zone
--max range of falcons--
12-

24-

36-
.......**.....**....**
48- [w] * [w]* [w] *
............[f].....[f]
60-
[n]
-----------------------my zone

Seer council moves up 6" in assault, and hurrah, 4+ obscured cover saves for all!

In subsequent turns I should be within striking distance for aggressive armies. Against gunlines I will move forward like this again next turn! Turn 3 should be filled with juicy assaults, meltaguns and bladestorms! This gives my "phalanx" 9 str 8 shots from the tanks and 4+ saves all around, as well as re-rollable 3+/4++ for the council. Thoughts? And yes, my army is a bit roman-greek themed. My autarch is named Barca after hannibal and the seer is named Arete after a greek philosopher of hedonism. Reformed eldar much? Haha! Now looking at the large base sizes the minimum council squad including autarch I need to achieve this maneuver is 6 if I hug an edge (which I intend to. My eldar follow to tau philosophy of mont'ka). or 8 if I need to start at the middle.

Over complicating it a bit - Eldar tanks are short enough that a jetbike can 6" move through them in assault to obscure them, and a council has 3+/4++ fortune anyway. If you want to shoot, obscure with council, and if you need to flat out, you get the save anyway. Council should never, ever turbo boost unless its a last turn contest move, since it stops fortune. You can, against assault armies where you want to keep back, use your council behind the tanks and then 6" jump in assault in front, after shooting.

However, most of the time the council will be on a flank, denying all movement and threatening the entire side of the board. You can push an enemy over to one side, away from the council, while still using them to draw fire, by playing them aggressively down a flank.

Against any kind of tank-spam list, I aim to stun and move on, and most of my opponents do the same. Shaken is just as good - if your tank can't shoot me, I don't care about it for a turn. Once everything that is threatening is shaken at least, I move on to actually hurting vehicles that will be a problem later. So it doesn't matter too much if you get shaken OR stunned, both have a similar effect over the course of the game, and chances are you'll cop an immob eventually. I find that stones make something like a fire dragon serpent a BIGGER target, simply because its still a threat AFTER it can't shoot. I guess it all comes down to the list as a whole, and how you want it to work, and what mind games you want to force your opponent to deal with.

At the end of the day, I'd rather spend 50 points on more dakka than a "what if" though.

Ah. What dakka are you getting

dnptan wrote:Scatter lasers are an interesting choice Smitty. 4 str 6 shots do give the serpents a lot of anti-infantry, however the tradeoff is my 5 long range 48" tank busting ability. I think in this case the range trumps volume of shots as I want to be able to keep my distance to use speed to my advantage. for an extra 5 points I get the ability to pin as well! But the lasers are worth considering. But dropping falcons and dropping EMLs means I lose a considerable (9 str 9 shots at 48") AT. There are tanks that are difficult to approach with the dragons, like some IG Russ setups and Tau hammerheads.

First missiles and pulse lasers are only s8. We can only wish they were s9...

also, Scatter Lasers- in addition to being more versatile against infantry, are also better than missile launchers at tank busting against AV10 and AV11 targets.

So against most vehicle targets- razor spam, rhino spam, pred side armor, DE tanks, etc. You are universally better off with Scatter Lasers.

This isn't to say that missiles don't have their place, they are helpful against front armor on Chimeras (although a scatter laser to the side armor is better), as well as targets like storm ravens and Valkeries / Vendettas, enemy Eldar Tanks, and the new GK dreads, missiles are still the most cost effective option for you in these cases. However you've got a council as well as 2 squads of dragons. In this case I'd wager that the extra versatility of the Scatter Laser will serve you better.

That's good information on the scatters! However, I don't think the 15 points is worth it over the TL ShCannons, so maybe I'll downgrade to that. How about the dragon wagons has TL ShCannons but the DAs have the EML/Shcannon combo, for redundancy?

So attached is a little mathhammering I did for the case of SL vs EML

*edit: This is expected values, not probabilities*

It's interesting to note that EML does score significantly less (40%) damage vs vehicles of AV 10 11 and 12 for immobilizing/weapon destroyed, and the wrecked result is extremely small. However, vs Infantry the Plasma/SC combo results in significantly more (15% if no armor; 100% if 4+/5+ save) damage to infantry. Couple that with the pinning aspect of the EML and it's a very good weapon choice. This result is pretty shocking, as I'm sure the opponent would believe that the TLScatter would be a better anti-infantry while the EML would be better anti-tank. However, the mathhammer shows it's VICE VERSA.

This has needs tactical consideration. The EML could then be used to tackle vehicles using its superior 48" range and within 36", where the Scatter would shine, the EML loses its edge. However within 24" the EML proves superior vs infantry and after unloading the dragons, will let the dragons do what they do best.

For all other readers, I'd like to inform you that the best anti-personnel weapon of the wave serpent is the EML/SCannon combo (40pts) followed by the scatter laser (25 pts). If you get the average CASUALTIES/POINT VALUE the EML/SCannon has a 0.043 kill/pt vs. the Scatter with 0.05kill/pt. This is for infantry. Also don't forget that the EML is Pinning, as well as AP4. It's a very interesting trade-off, and I myself am not sure which to take.

Hope that this was useful guys!

a few things I'd like to point out about your post. Its going to be a bit technical but whatever. For some reason I find math hammer kind of relaxing... I find probabilities interesting- especially when they lead to you interesting results.

1) your calculations are slightly off. When you calculate the odds of something happening over multiple occurrences, you take the odds of it *not* happening, put that at the power of the attempts, then subtract it from one.

1-(1-x)^y
x: probability of each shot wrecking the tank
y: number of shots

This formula is from statistics, Here is a simpler example

some guy on a statistics forum in 2009 wrote:If you want the chance that at least one five will be rolled at some point, what you want is the inverse of the change that no five ever is ever rolled. For n rolls, that probability is (5/6) to the nth power. Subtract that from 1 and you have the original probability you want.

looking back on my original math hammer, mine is slightly off- I should have taken it by shot- with the odds of a miss calculated into the formula- rather than just assuming I get the statical average of hits. Either way the difference is less than 1%.

So lets take scatter lasers against an AV 11 transport with the goal of wrecking it.

each bullet is this likely to wreck a transport

Twin linked bs3 accuracy : (1/2+(1-1/2)*1/2) =(3/4)
odds that a hit will wreck av11 non open topped: (1/6*1/3) = (1/18)

x=(3/4)*(1/18)

So the odds then of our 4 shot scatter laser wrecking is

1-(1-x)^4=.15653 or about 15.65%

Whatever though, I mean it will only change the numbers by a little bit either way- and the scatter will still be > than the EML against AV10 and 11

2) You are being very very generous to the missile launcher. Due to the size of the small blast marker, and that unit coherency is 2 inches, and when you consider the possibilities of scatter- its very unlikely you'll ever get four duders under the template on a normal shot- its more likely that you'll only be nabbing 2 or fewer guys each shot. That said- there are techniques for increasing the fire power of the EML that you can take advantage. Tank shocking can be used to bunch guys up- and push them out of cover. Deep striking opponents (obviously) or an allied chaos player using Lash .

Still though, its more likely that the scatter will outperform the missile launcher against most targets. Remember that squads with 4+ armor don't usually like hanging out outside of cover. Unless you are including the tank shock in your calculations... the scatter will be better against those targets anyway. 4+ cover is EVERYWHERE. Its why the scatter is so much better than the starcannon- well that and the extra 2 shots at light armor.

4) Sisters of battle are upset that you didn't include t3 3+ armor saves. Witch hunters is still a good codex Although considering point 1) you'll probably need to redo all your calcs anyway!

EDIT: Here is the new and improved eldar heavy weapons chart. Now with more accuracy!



Note the Fire Dragon squad kicking ass at the bottom .
ofc this assumes the vehicle is not open topped, and that your goal is to immobilize it.

So true. I never understood why people take EML. For similar reason I don't take bright lances. A successful st8 wrecking against av12 is a statistical rarity, Especially at bs3.

Let not forget how it plays on the table (and I can't believe I'm advocating against math hammer in a thread) and the advantages of EML spam on serpents. We can't directly control our opponents, we can only manipulate them, and sometimes you really need to hit something across the table with that flanking wave serpent. 12" move and 48" range is absolutely irreplaceable when you're fleeing from enemy meltas but also need to pressure everything else. The flexibility of the EML extends beyond the dual missiles, to being able to hit anything on the table within reason.

36" scatter laser range is pretty hefty, but if you're moving 12" away from the battlefront, consider it a 24" range. Scatters also really need side armor against anything bigger than a SM box, which can limit their potential if being actively chased.

I still believe EMLs on your scoring serpents gives you the best TAC option, and as much as I love scatter lasers, there is a reason we take outflanking dual-laser war walkers. They just do it so much better than serpents, and you can afford to risk them in ways you wouldn't risk your scoring serpents.

If you want dragon wagons to hurt things after they deliver the payload, give them TL cannon and underslung cannon, it bumps them to 110 points but yes, they are pretty much suicide vehicles as much as their squads, but having 6 S6 shots with 3 being TL is a high enough threat to make your opponent divert fire to them instead of scoring serpents, at least to stun them.

For vehicle calculations, you are correct in that the table doesn't give the correct odds of applying the specific result. However it does show how many of that result you can expect per shot. That is for example the TL scatter vs AV 10 for weapon destroyed - that is for each salvo you can expect 0.83 of that result, and NOT an 83% chance of it happening. The formula you gave is correct in applying probability but not for statistics (two different things). Of course for statistics the actual expected value is not the only consideration, but variance and standard deviation as well.

So my calculations don't predict the odds something happens, just that it is the expected result. The same is true for the calculations against infantry. I apologize for the sisters . However I have to stand by that the 4 hits from the EML is modified by the odds of it not scattering (roughly 60%) for twin-linked. The diameter of the template is 3", which means at minimum, a direct hit will hit 2 units if in rank or file, but 4 units if in rank and file. Additionally like you said deep strikers as well as units that disembark from single-entry transports will similarly be bunched.

Probability is not valid for calculating the expected kill/point value so I find that statistics are a better tool for determining cost-effectiveness. I can provide SD as well but for a discrete model with n<=4 the SD is going to be fairly huge. This is where nuffle steps in. Expected values allow you to see if your unit performed "as expected", whereas probabilities just let you say "WHAT? War walker survived 50 lascannon shots? That's crazy!" However, it is not crazy. There will always be that little percent that it happens, be it 0.001%. However with expected values it takes into account the evolution of the meta-game as opposed to an individual event.

Probability is great for determining the effectiveness of unit a vs unit b, but for determining metagame potential, i prefer statistics.

As for EML vs SL, SL is definitely superior in low AV vehicles (and EML isn't for larger vehicles anyway) however it lacks the versatility of the EML for dealing with other targets such as MCs and FNP T4 dudes. The possibility of instant death is great, as it removes one roll from the series. Additionally although pinning isn't the best or most reliable thing in the world, when it does go off it's like getting crew stunned on infantry! This has interesting synergy with my nightspinner, as a total of 5 EMLs and 1 night spinner has the potential of incapacitating roughly 3 (once again expected values, 1 unit per EML, 2 units for nightspinner and reducing by 60% for a quick estimate). enemy infantry per turn. For an all-comers list the ability to be able to A) destroy transports for mech and B) immobilize infantry for hordes can be a great tactical advantage.

This is not to say that EML>SL, in fact the numbers are in favor of the SL. However Eldar players are less about the numbers and more about outmaneuvering (at least I play like this) as a 4th ed codex requires more discretion and tactics to make use of the small unit pool. For eldar, destroying 100 points of enemies is not worth losing 100, or even 50 of your own. However losing 100 points on your turn to be able to get better positioning is worth it. This is true as well for the Dark Eldar and Tau (for tau, i'd gladly sacrifice my kroot and fishy to be able to relocate my hammerheads to take down that monolith/LR that just came in from reserve).

When it comes down to it it's all about play style. I am appreciative of all the comments you guys have put in though. Before I was completely sold on EMLs for WS, Scatter for WWs. However this research is making me think more about the implications of load-outs in the meta game.

And of course probability isn't taking into account cost effectiveness which is very important.

The missile is the most cost effective heavy weapon (not counting silly dragon squads) against av12. This includes threats such as Vendettas, Storm Ravens, (psy)Rifleman Dreads, side armor on battle wagons, side armor on Russes, front armor on Chimera, etc.

otoh, you are running a seer council list as opposed to the standard mech. The council add significant anti medium-heavy vehicle punch to your list- especially when multi charging. And since the council will probably be increasing the aggressiveness of your game- I'm unsure that the extra range of the missile will be as important.

In this case- I'd be go with the scatters as they give you better coverage against av 10 and 11, which are more easily spammed than av12. I'd wager that between 2 dragon squads and the council you can handle yourself against moderate numbers of av12.

"WHAT? War walker survived 50 lascannon shots? That's crazy!" However, it is not crazy.

Gotta love Night Fighting!

Seriously though, I think we can all agree that your choice of whether to take SL or EML on your serpents will come down to more than which is better against AV10/11/12. For every list decision like this, the effect overall on how your army plays is worth more than a small difference against a certain facing of a certain tank that you might happen to shoot. I love math hammer, I do it a lot, I swear by its findings, but I'm realistic enough to know that you don't win games purely because you had a 9% better chance to immob that rhino with the SL you chose instead of the EML you were considering bringing, but because you happened to roll a 4 instead of a 3 at the time.

That is true. I get schooled by IG easily though. They are beastly in this edition because they are so damn cheap (points wise). Every time I play them I get outnumbered as the melta tanks take down my falcons and the demolisher eventually gets my serpents.

But do you think the scatters are worth the 15 points over the regular shuricannons? 15 points for 1 extra attack and 12" range... and 1 less AP! Though that's not really an issue. Hmm I'll post a new list in a few. This is making me think!

Thanks a lot all! Esp TehScat and akaean

TehScat wrote:

Smitty0305 wrote:Your farseer needs runes of witnessing...fortune NEEDS to go off.

Embolden affects Psychic tests. Fortune has a 1/12 to fail, and embolden makes that 1/144. Witnessing is a waste of points.

I just wanted to weigh in on this point. Runes of Witnessing does serve a purpose even when you consider the re roll granted by embolden.
Witnessing really comes in to its own against opposing Runes of Warding and Tyranid Shadow in the Warp.

We all know that Runes of Warding has a 50% chance of blocking your psychic power and a 37% chance of causing perils. This means that with embolden factored in, you have a 75% chance of successfully casting on 3d6 with a re-roll.

The Eldar FAQ talks about how these Runes Interact- essentially allowing you to completely ignore warding's fail rate (but not the perils, but the ghost helm does help to mitigate this).
It also cancels out Shadow in the Warp, bringing you back to a straight 2d6 when close to Synapse Nids.

Whether or not thats worth 10 points to you is for you to decide. But if you expect to be fighting other Eldar or Tyranids at a tournament that 10 points could save your pointy eldar butt.

one more thing. Something interesting I saw in an Eldar list a few weeks ago- a guy took a council with 2 farseers- both with fortune, and one had doom but no spirit stones. The idea was if you double up on fortune you have a significantly better chance of getting one through a psychic hood. If the first casting is successful, then the second farseer is free to cast doom. If the first cast fails- you get another shot. Something to consider at least- what with all the hoods floating about.

Hmm that is a very good point. The runes of warding of an enemy eldar is the scariest IMO, let's look at quick math:

odds of getting above 10 in 3d6 is 50% (correct me if I am wrong). sow ith embolden it becomes 25% failure rate (ouch).

with RoWit it goes back to "normal" 2d6 and the odds of failing that is around 8%, giving a 99% chance of success with embolden.

Shadow only works at 12" I think, so if I go for the synapse creature first (which should be done vs tyranids anyway), I should be out of the 12" range before striking. If it stays, shadow will work like RoWarding

As for the hood, the roll-off against a librarian is 50-50. Runes of Witnessing is of no help! Also it's 24" range makes it less dangerous than RoWarding, but more dangerous than shadow IMO. In cases like this my priority is to take down these psychic blockers. But that might not be too easy.