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Well, the simple answer to the Orgyn question is you ditch the blob. Ogryns, being an elite choice are really something you build an army around, not add into a army like an after thought.

I will also point out Chimeras are terrible assault vehicles due to the rear ramp. Your probably hoping the Chimeras get blown up and you survive the explosion. You can't assault the turn you disembark, so your going to be exposed to at least one turn of fire. The soonest you can assault is turn 2 if you disembark round 1. Either you give up the Chimera and foot slog it or you ditch the Grenadiers and the Fists.

I will have to support the folks who are telling you to ditch the heavy bolters for Auto Cannons. Str 5, AP 4, 3 shots, 36" range vs Str 7, AP 4, 2 shots, 48" range. Use ACs to pop light AV vehicles like Rhinos, Trukks, Razorbacks, ect. They are also good anti-hoard. I honestly would ditch the Heavy Bolter Heavy Weapon Squad and add ACs and Meltaguns to those 3 naked PISs.

Also, you know what? I will actually suggest you get a second CCS to sit back with your two heavy weapon squads and your blob squad just to give them Bring it Down! to make them twin linked so they actually hit something. Heck, if you got 10pts, throw a Vox in one squad in the blob and the new CCS. Give the new CCS 3 meltaguns and use it for rear area defence against DSing units. If you can afford it, give them a Chimera for mobility and responce value. Multi-Laser and Heavy Bolter here is a good thing for the Chimera.

Grenade Launchers are dogs... Str 3 frag and Str 6 AP 4 Krak... the only thing you can do is kill infantry with the Kraks. Every special weapon slot needs to be filled with either Meltaguns or Plasmaguns. There is an arguement for flamers to deal with hoards and troops in cover, but I am sold on the heavy flamers on Chimeras to deal with this situation. You do this and I think your going to be scrambling to find points.

I agree with BlkTom that Chimeras are awful assault vehicles. They're much better for drive-by shootings where the vehicle moves 6" or less so that it can fire one weapon + defensive weapon and the squad inside can fire five models (3 special weapons + two lasrifles) or for simply tank shocking onto an objective with a squad inside.

I'm not completely convinced that autocannons are always better than heavy bolters. Mathhammer would show you that the three heavy bolters are more likely to kill infantry than the autocannons, however I use all autocannons because my Chimeras have heavy bolters and the ACs are more versatile (longer range and some anti-vehicle capability).

What's more troublesome is using heavy weapon teams at all without a lord commissar or a regimental standard in your list. With LD7 the heavy weapons are going to run off the table about 41.2% of the time when they lose a model, and it isn't hard for your opponent to pop one since Instant Death applies for S6 or better weapons (Psycannons, autocannons, Lootas, Long Fangs with missle launchers, and every IG artillery option). I occasionally use HWTs but I include a lord commissar to camp within 6" of them so that they are LD 10 and I often have my regimental standard within 12" as well (to allow a re-roll). This means that they pass leadership checks 99.3% of the time.

You have other options that I wouldn't use - Sentinels, carapace armor, and PWs in the veteran squads but it's your army and I can see how these options fit into your theme. They won't handicap you like the HWTs without a leadership bump will.

Why no special weapons in the plain infantry squads? Flamers, melta guns, and grenade launchers are all useful depending on your meta and tactics. The grenade launchers work best for me but that's because I move my squads. Plasma guns IMO are best suited for veterans or the CCS.

Ok, I'll forget about the Ogryns then.

You make a good point about the Chimeras, just wondering how you would suggest I get Straken into assault, I want to keep him because of the background for the list. I thought that if the transport that the unit is in had not moved that turn, the embarked unit could get out and act normally, so the plan was to move the chimeras up, leave the veterans/CCS in them until the next turn, and then get out and assault without being shot at. I can see though that in order for this to be effective (if I am correct with the rule) the rear armour would have to be facing the squad that I am charging, and this would probably result in a lot of dead Chimeras.

I think your right with the AC's for HB's and I will change that in the next list I add. Giving the naked squads Plasma guns is also a good idea as melta guns have too short a range considering that these squads are going to be sitting back.

The idea for the new CCS also sounds pretty good, but I think that the lord Commisar suggestion is also valid as well. Thanks.

Rampage wrote:You make a good point about the Chimeras, just wondering how you would suggest I get Straken into assault, I want to keep him because of the background for the list. I thought that if the transport that the unit is in had not moved that turn, the embarked unit could get out and act normally, so the plan was to move the chimeras up, leave the veterans/CCS in them until the next turn, and then get out and assault without being shot at. I can see though that in order for this to be effective (if I am correct with the rule) the rear armour would have to be facing the squad that I am charging, and this would probably result in a lot of dead Chimeras.

You can move the Chimeras within 12", pop smoke (if you still have it), and keep the squad inside. Then the next turn, you can pivot the Chimera during the movement phase, dismount the squad and move it 6". Then it can assault 6". Pivots don't count as movement. Just make sure you pivot on your center and tell your opponent that you are making a pivot. [Edit: BlkTom pointed out that passengers cannot dismount AND assault if the vehicle pivots. See p. 67 of the rulebook]

The drawback to this method is that you're sitting within 12" of the enemy who probably has some form of anti-vehicle in his unit. He can assault your Chimera or shoot it. While smoke might protect you from the shooting, nothing is going to stop the assault. Even models with only S4 can harm a Chiimera in hand-to-hand but your real concern is S5 or better attacks (krak grenades, melta bombs, PF/PK, thunderhammers and nasty monsters/characters) that can penetrate the transport's armor. If you moved at cruising speed, he will need 6s to hit your vehicle. That seems like good protection but if they get six or more attacks then something is going to hit your vehicle. Your opponent is hoping to wreck or explode your vehicle and cause a pinning check that you have a 28.8% chance of failing. If pinned, you can't assault and he will will assault you during his next turn.

Can't pivot and disembark and still assault as per the disembarking rules, pg 67 base rules book. Only way to disembark and assault is not moving the vehicle at all. Disembarking counts as moving so you only have that 2" deployment from the ramp in back. You can shoot, but since you count as moving you have those normal restrictions. You can then move your assault distance, but only if the target is 6" or less, otherwise you fail your assault and don't move. After you disembark, you can now move the vehicle as normal.

Assaulting from a Chimera is a very bad idea. If you jump through enough hoops you can pull it off.

BlkTom wrote:Can't pivot and disembark and still assault as per the disembarking rules, pg 67 base rules book. Only way to disembark and assault is not moving the vehicle at all. Disembarking counts as moving so you only have that 2" deployment from the ramp in back. You can shoot, but since you count as moving you have those normal restrictions. You can then move your assault distance, but only if the target is 6" or less, otherwise you fail your assault and don't move. After you disembark, you can now move the vehicle as normal.

Assaulting from a Chimera is a very bad idea. If you jump through enough hoops you can pull it off.

Thanks for the correction! In eight years of playing IG, I've never assaulted from a Chimera. It always seemed like a bad idea before and now in 5th Edition it also seems nearly impossible to physically perform.

Rampage, I just don't see why you think an assault from Chimeras is a good tactic. There is a time for IG to assault but it is typically in a cascading gun line with your assault units at the final layer of the cascade. The enemy assaults and crushes two or three successive lines of IG infantry squads but gets shot up during three to four rounds of shooting. Then your assault line finally charges in against a greatly weakened enemy. Straken with a regimental standard and a Lord Commissar in a veteran squad would or Ogryn squad would make decent final layers (though pricey).

NP JB. Those rules apply to Rhinos and most other vehicles unless they have a special rule, like a Land Raider with it's assault ramp. That is why the best assault group are foot sloggers.

IG can do it, you have like 5 ways of doing it really. You have Blob squads, Vet/Platoon squads with CC focus, Penal squads, Rough Rider focused and Ogryn focused. You seriously consider things like Priests, Creed and Kell (For Cadia! is awesome), Kamir, Chenkov, Yarrik, and Straken.

Could you see 30 Ogryns with two Tech Priests attached to two squads? Yarrick and Straken as HQ choices following them up attached to squads with a Priests attached to their units and some Penal or Vet units as troops CC geared out with Commissars and more Priests (since you can have 5 of the bastards) following them in?

You can do it Rampage, but you really can't do it effectivily via mech. Even Grav Chuting in counts as deep striking so you can't assault that turn (if you survive the insertion).

I use Yarrick and a PW commissar in my gunline as one of my final layers. He's great in that role near my HWTs to keep them LD10 and to keep my cascade PIS stubborn. He will assault if necessary once the enemy breaks through all of my PIS (which should mean the enemy is very shot up).

I have used a techpriest with three servitors to do a "final layer" assault. They had a priest with them and ended up beating an Ork Slugga Boy squad (by killing nine of them). Unfortunately, the Orks made their leadership test and the battle went downhill the next turn.

I didn't think that Techpriests were independent characters? It's one of their many Achilles Heels.

Ok then, I'll completely forget about the Chimera idea, and that should save me a few points to bulk out my force a bit more. I'll probably go with JB's idea of counter-charging, and I'll post an updated list to this thread soon. Thanks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ok, here is a revised version of my list, I have removed the Chimeras and the Sentinels and set about replacing them with other stuff.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken
-Regimental Standard

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Carapace Armour

Elites

Ogryns (has Lord Commissar in it)
-2 extra Ogryns

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Plasma Guns (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Plasma Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Heavy Bolters


Veteran Squad 1
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Veteran Squad 2
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Plasma Cannons

Manticore Rocket Launcher


Right, the plan with this would be that everything stays back and shoots as much as they can. When / If the enemy hit my lines the CC element (Ogryns, CCS, possibly veterans, etc) charge in and cause some pain. The ogryns are to stay relatively close to the heavy weapons squads to allow them to benefit from the Lord Commisar, the CCS is to stay near the veterans so that Straken can give them furious charge and orders, and the PCS continues to shoot at things while again, issuing orders.

I make this list at 1900 points, so what are your opinions / thoughts on what the remaining points could be used upon. Also, do you think that the Ogryns fit into this list, and am I being a bit excessive with the Plasma Guns?

Thanks for your help and any criticism / comments would be appreciated. Thanks.

Yeah, I think you went alittle over on Plasma where it hurts your AT. I think Straken needs two Melta in his CCS and you need to make 1 or 2 squads of Vets meltas.

I understand your idea or forcing stuff to go through a hail of plasma and oh God will this tear up any hoard lists and works as great light AT. But you still need to deal with Battlewagons, Land Raiders, Lemon Russ tanks, and other AV 14 stuff. Even with Bring it Down! and 3 shots you may not Pen or glance.

If you have 100pts, consider Yarrick over the Lord Commissiar and upgrade the Heavy Bolters to Lascannons. You also could consider some more heavy support to further pound on stuff coming in.

No looking to bad, really! Good luck!

The thing you have to understand is BS4 in a guard army is something of a rarity. Nearly everything we have has to deal with a paltry BS3, so when an opportunity arises to equip a BS4 model with a special weapon, TAKE IT! I am talking specifically about your CCS. You want Straken, fine. He's an assault character, so take an assault weapon. I'm talking Meltaguns. On EVERY model in the CCS.
As for your PCS, I recommend either Grenade Launchers or Flamers. GL to give you the option of causing a few wounds on horde armies or popping (very) light tanks in a pinch, or Flamers to just cook hordes. The reason why I recommend these weapons and not Plasma/Melta is because the BS3 starts to hurt, and they're just too expensive on such a fragile and ultimately inconsequential unit.

Chimeras are an absolute god-send when it comes to bunkering down and laying down a world of ranged hurt. This is where the issue of Straken comes in, as he is an assault character, and is wasted if he's stuck in a Chimera, yet a Chimera adds another level of safety and allows all your special weapon models to shoot from the top hatch. So ultimately, I guess the choice is yours.

I will personally state I am not a fan of the Lord Commissar/Ogryn combo. Just too many points.

Oh and finally, you went way over the top with Plasma. 2/3 of your veterans AT LEAST should be melta, because if not vehicles will just ruin your day.

Anyway this list has a lot of flaws

Your strategy is sit back and shoot then counter charge with the blob...for 2k points for shooting you only have 1 Battle cannon w/ 2 plasma cannon sponsons, 1 Storm Eagle rockets, 3 BS3 Lascannons, 3 BS3 autocannons, 3 BS3 heavy bolters. Pretty much very underwhelming. For assault, you only have 1 Lord commissar and 5 ogryns, and a 30 man blob with a commissar and no power weapons whatsoever and instead they have plasma guns; pretty much all over the place.

@OP what do you want to do with your army? I suggest you focus on what you want to do first before you start adding random units into the list.

1.Straken is best used with his circus...search "Straken's flying circus"(NOTE: check out the army first before buying 9 valkyries if ever you go with the flying circus).Besides you're getting him for assault then you let him sit back and do nothing for a few turns...pretty much a waste of points.

2.Veterans are best used with chimeras whether they bring plasma or melta. They're just too easy to kill without extra protection. (Pretty much dimmy52's advice is good)

3.Powerblobs need power weapons or else they'll just be an expensive delay unit/objective holder.

4.HWS Heavybolters are useless in your list, since you have a lot of anti infantry, go autocannons same points but just better overall helps with killing transports also.

5.Lord commissar + ogryn combo is expensive and the army has to be build around them, you do not just add these just because you want them in your army.

6.LRBT w/ Plasma sponsons to me is too much expensive. The humble vanilla LRBT is enough and worth the cost, getting the plasma sponsons make it too expensive.

Ok, I've updated my list again, and this is what it looks like.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel 'Iron Hand' Straken
-Regimental Standard
-Melta Guns (3x)

Commissar Yarrick

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Grenade Launchers (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Lascannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3 (Has Commisar Yarrick in it)
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Battle Tank
-Heavy Bolters

Manticore Rocket Launcher

This is 1905pts at the minute, so if anyone has any ideas to how I could use the extra 95pts I would appreciate them.

The flying circus looks brutal, but I don't really have the money to buy 9 Valkyries/Vendettas at the minute. I still decided to keep Straken though, as his 'cold steel and courage' rule, and the fact that he is only 95pts and still a close combat monster seem to make him worth it even if he is not in combat for the first couple of turns. But I would appreciate your thoughts on this.

Right, so the plan is: The platoon sit back and shoot as much as they can, Yarrick and his veteran squad stand in the centre to give as much of the platoon 'Stubborn' as he can, while the veterans set to with the Plasma Guns. The PCS and CCS also stay nearby to use orders effectively while the PCS shoot with their grenade launchers and the CCS make a mess of any enemy transports. The LRBT and Manticore cause as much carnage as they can and the veteran squads in the Chimeras doing drive-bys on enemy vehicles.

Does this list seem any better? Once again I would appreciate any comments / criticism that you might have of the list. Thanks!

Why is Yarrick a assault unit with Veterans with plasmas who cannot assault after firing rapid fire weapons? I would ditch Yarrick and add a Lord Commissar to stop the HWTs running off when they take some pain. Btw where is this unit meant to be going? putting Yarrick so the Platoon can get stubborn doesn't make any difference as the Commissar gives the Platoon stubborn anyway.

Not enough tanks also. You've got two Chimeras moving towards the opponent and personally I wouldn't bat a eye lid at this. You have a single Manticore and a medicore Leman Russ. I would either take double Manticores but I feel double Demolishers would suit you better because they can advance with the two Chimeras.

In all honesty you are going for a foot list with a few vehicles and it doesn't work. The low amount of armour will attract anti tank and will be taken out without issues. I would keep the list as mostly foot but add Creed for 24" order radius. I do know know what you have Strakken on foot with meltas for as they won't get into melta range. I would then add artillery which can hit behind terrain etc and get cover which would minimise the anti tank.

If you want a typical gunline with counter assault check this list out from my blog: http://www.imperiusdominatus.com/2010/11/army-lists-imperial-guard-gunline-2000.html

Ok, so I'll swap Yarrick back for the Lord Commissar and then use the remaining points to change the LRBT into 2 Demolishers.

I like what you've done with the Colossus and the Medusa in your blog but as I already have 2 demolishers and a Manticore there isn't enough room for another Heavy Sup choice, as I want the 2 Demolishers to be seperate.

Also, what would you suggest for the side sponsons for the demolishers, and which special weapons do you think I should take instead of the Meltas in the CCS? As it seems a pity to not use their BS of 4.

I have decided not to take Creed though. I know he's really awesome but I was wanting to do a Catachan themed list. And having Creed leading a Catachan army doesn't seem realistic.

Thanks for your help.

No side sponsons on the tanks they just cost too much. Multi meltas might be handy for two S8 AP1 shots.

You're using there ballistic skill when using meltas as you shoot them. Just put them in a transport so they can get close and sorted.

He doesn't have to be Creed. He could be John "Devil Boots" Malone or whoever you want him to be. He just uses Creeds rules

Ah, ok, I will use 'John' instead of Straken in my command squad (I only just came across this sort of thing when I was reading the Nid codex this afternoon.

I'll probably put Multimeltas on the demolishers and give the CCS a Chimera, but I'll still keep the Chimera within 24" of the bulk of my force so that 'John' can give orders such as, 'For the glory of Catachan!' and the suchlike.

Thanks.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Carapace Armour

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Grenade Launchers (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Lascannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher

Ok, here is a further updated version of my list. Colonel Greiss is basicaly Creed but with a name change to make him more Catachany. The list is also now exactly 2,000pts.

The plan is that the platoon sits back and shoots stuff, the Lord Commissar staying near to the HWS's to keep them from running off. The Veteran squad with Plasma guns and the Manticore also stay back and shoot while the PCS and Greiss' CCS give orders and continue to shoot. The 2 melta armed veteran squads trundle forward in their Chimeras accompanied by the demolishers to cause carnage. In the event of enemy units charging my battle line Greiss will use orders like 'for the honour of Catachan (Cadia)' to try and lead a counter-charge.

Ok, once again any comments / criticism would be appreciated. Thanks for the help.

I think you want Kell, as when your giving Orders the units now use 'Greiss's' leadership instead of their own. Remember you can't give orders to Vehicles or units in vehicles (including the CCS to itself if it is in a vehicle).

Your using a standard anyways, so you would need to get 70pts. Problem is I am not sure where you can get the points for him.... maybe drop the two Chimeras from the melta vets (giving one to your CCS), mess with the Lord Commissar, ect... I am not really sure. Play without Kell and see if you need him or not. Maybe with the Lord Commissar's Aura of Discipline you don't need him.

I still think GLs are dogs. You will find yourself very disappointed with them if you play them I bet. If your gonna go GL or flamers, take flamers... flamers don't care what your BS is, it is a template.

I think your list is really shaping up! It is down to a few minor tweaks!

Ok, I'll swap the GLs for Flamers then. I'll see about Kell, as I'll probably get the Creed model anyway and then convert him a bit to make him suitable for the Catachan version of him and am I correct in thinking that Kell comes in the same pack? I think I'll play a couple of games without him and then if there is definately a problem without Kell in the list then i'll make some room for him by removing the stuff that performed the worst.

Thanks for your help!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Here is the list again.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Carapace Armour

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Flamers (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Plasma Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Lascannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher

Ok, the plan hasn't changed, and neither has the points cost. I am simply re-posting (with the change from GLs to flamers in the PCS) to see if you think it is time to start playing games with and then building the list or if there are a few extra tweaks that could/should be done first?

Thanks for all of your help.

One plasma gun in the CCS? Are you kidding? Plasma in Straken's squad is a mistake to begin with, but one?

Swap the LRBT for an Executioner if you like plasma. The Executioner is the pick of the LR litter. LRBT´s are pretty mediocre.

Blobs should have power weapons and melta guns. I like melta bombs too.

Veterans should never think about assaulting. If you want to fight HtH, go with blobs. Blobs can fight, veterans should shoot. Give the power weapons to the blobs.

Dump the grenadiers, those upgrades are crazy expensive. Use the points for more things with guns.

Autocannons are better than heavy bolters and the same price. Lascannons are dubious value.

I have never actually seen a Manticore accomplish anything. They do attract a great deal of attention, which probably explains why they don't usually accomplish much. The morale of the story is, it's difficult to protect one vehicle in this game.

Can I just double check, is this for the above list or the first list that I posted to this thread?

I've removed Straken from the CCS and replaced him with a Creed equivilant, I've changed the LRBT for demolishers, but if this doesn't go too well I might think about an Executioner.

I'm not a big fan of giving the sergeant melta bombs, simply because of his strength 3, admittedly he could penetrate land raiders etc, but only on a double six,, and you're going to be glancing Trukks on a 7, which is the average roll for 2D6.

The veterans aren't primarily fighting anymore, although they could counter-charge if necessary. I have also dropped grenadiers.

I have swapped the HB's for Lascannons, simply for the ability to be firing 6 Lascannons at enemy vehicles every turn just from the HWS's.

I might see about the manticore though, I'll see how it performs in games.

Thanks for your help.

Rampage wrote:Can I just double check, is this for the above list or the first list that I posted to this thread?

I think there is a list at the bottom of the first page, I may have commented prematurely.

Rampage wrote:I've removed Straken from the CCS and replaced him with a Creed equivilant,

I like Creed a little better, due to the range he has. I've never actually used either one, but it's partly lazyness. I do want to try Creed.

Rampage wrote: I've changed the LRBT for demolishers, but if this doesn't go too well I might think about an Executioner.

I've had very little luck with the Demolisher and I've played it a bunch. It usually does draw attention.

Rampage wrote:I'm not a big fan of giving the sergeant melta bombs, simply because of his strength 3, admittedly he could penetrate land raiders etc, but only on a double six,, and you're going to be glancing Trukks on a 7, which is the average roll for 2D6.

Melta bombs are S8 with 2d6 penetration. They're useful for preventing your 250+ point blob from being tied up all game by a Sentinel or a War Walker.

Rampage wrote:The veterans aren't primarily fighting anymore, although they could counter-charge if necessary. I have also dropped grenadiers.

I have swapped the HB's for Lascannons, simply for the ability to be firing 6 Lascannons at enemy vehicles every turn just from the HWS's.

HWS's are dubious value, they are cheap and they can accomplish things sometimes, but they are easy kill points, especially if there are many S6 and above weapons about. That said, I always run two AC units. AC seem to be the best value. They're actually better against AV10 and 11 and I think even 12 (but I'm not sure) than lascannons due to the extra shot. They are also cheaper. Unless you run into a lot of AV13 spam, AC's are probably a better bet.

Rampage wrote:I might see about the manticore though, I'll see how it performs in games.

Thanks for your help.

Do not put it near a board edge where outflankers can get to it. Use troops to prevent Wolf Scouts or Kommandos with Snikrot from coming on near it when playing those armies. Screen it when there are deep strikers as well. Also try to keep another vehicle in front of it to give it cover if there is no cover available. It will draw fire.

Ok, thanks. I normally fight a CSM list that includes 3 defilers although i do fight other things, so I'll probably swap one of the HWS Lascannons for ACs.

I may have got mixed up with the Monstrous creatures special rule against vehicles and melta bombs, srry about that.

I'm not really sure about Demolishers. I've never uesd them before and I think I might try a couple of games with them and see how they do and if they don't do well what would you suggest I replace them with given what I am trying to do with them?

Thanks for your help.

Rampage wrote:
I'm not a big fan of giving the sergeant melta bombs, simply because of his strength 3, admittedly he could penetrate land raiders etc, but only on a double six,, and you're going to be glancing Trukks on a 7, which is the average roll for 2D6.

Melta bombs are S8 with 2d6 penetration. They're useful for preventing your 250+ point blob from being tied up all game by a Sentinel or a War Walker.

They are indeed Str 8 with 2d6 penetration.

But...

You get only one attack with a grenade, even if you have more than one attack normally. To hit a Walker you only hit on a 6, period (pg 73, BRB, 3rd paragraph down on the left). Vehicles use the normal hit on a 6 if it went 12", 4+ if it moved 6", and auto hit if it didn't move at all. Problem is a vehicle can just drive away from close combat, probably doing a tank shock along the way.

Melta bombs are really a desperate choice if you have 5pts to waste IMO. I would rather upgrade a squad to a flamer, or upgrade a flamer to a melta gun, or upgrade a melta gun to a plasma gun with those 5pts than buy a melta bomb. Heck, give the whole squad Krak grenades for 5 points.

But, that is why giving a Vet Squad Demolitions and thus give all 10 guys melta bombs is not a bad way of doing it. Couple of those guys are gonna roll a 6 if they attack a walker. If they get attacked by one..it depends on what type... a Blood Angel dread with cheater claws (blood talons I think is the real name?) can wipe out your entire squad before you get a chance to attack back on your Init 3.

Look at special weapon squads, good place to put flamer weapons, can assault enemy units moving into assault range. Reasonably cheap.

Ok, so do you think I should try and scavenge 60 pts to give the veterans in the Chimeras Demolitions?

I rarely play against blood angels, and I have never actually faced a Furioso with blood talons before. As I say, I normally play against a CSM lash list which uses 3 defilers, 2 Daemon princes of Slaanesh with wings and lash, and 3 squads of Death guard in Rhinos. But I'm fed up of playing it because the result is inevitable (I lose). So I'm trying to make this list a sort of 'take all comers' list.

Thanks for your help.

To be honest, no... I wouldn't put Demolitions on your vets unless they are not mounted in a Chimera. Chimera are just like rhinos... terrible to assault from. The Demo charge is really cool, but that is alot of points to pay for them.

To be honest, if your mounted in a Chimera and you come across a walker, you want to shoot it before it can shoot you. Penetrations on a walker are bad, as destroying a single weapon on a arm destroys the whole arm (possibly taking out multiple weapons).

The naked plasmagun Vet squad is something you should re-consider... if you can't mount it in a chimera, I wold get Sentries on it or scrap it all together to give you points to go elsewhere... that is 115pts. That could be Kell right there plus some extra gear...

As for models...a Standard Bearer can't have a powerfist normally, so just make one with a powerfist and call it Kell. Strap a sword to his side as his power weapon (weird, I know, a power weapon AND a fist) and give him carapace armor. You can easily do this via a Cadia Carapice torso, Catch Head, Legs, and Arms with a power fist. Heck, you can even make the base look like he planted the standard and has his weapons out. I hate the little speaker thing on Kell's shoulders, but since it isn't real equipment, you don't need it.

You can do the same thing for Creed... give him two holsters or two las-pistols and any other equipment the character is suppose to have and now you don't even have to worry about 'count's as'.

Ok, I think I'll probably scrap the PG vets and get 'kell' and some other stuff then. Can any squad in a platoon capture objectives?

Thanks.

Rampage wrote:Ok, I think I'll probably scrap the PG vets and get 'kell' and some other stuff then. Can any squad in a platoon capture objectives?

Thanks.

Yup, they all count as troops for capturing objectives. So a Heavy Weapon Squad sitting on a back objective counts as holding it.