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Excellent, so the objective missions shouldn't be a problem. Thanks.

I would keep at least two veteran squads with plasma guns in Chimeras. Swap out the PGs in the plain infantry squads for melta guns.

When you face your CSM opponent, plasma vets are going to come in very handy against the Demon Princes (first priority) and Plague Marines (second priority). Just make sure that something else is cracking open the Rhinos so that you can get full plasma goodness on Nurgle's finest. It's best to combine two plasma vet squads on one squad of Plague Marines in the same turn, especially if you aren't close enough for rapid fire. It takes a lot of shooting to destroy them, even if they only have six or seven marines. If you catch them in the open with two plasma vet squads on rapid fire, you can do a lot of damage. Just make sure that you are firing from the top hatches of the Chimeras. While it reduces your lasgun firepower, that doesn't hurt you much. Six plasma guns and four lasguns firing from two Chimeras within 12" will likely kill 6-7 marines. On the other hand, if you dismount to get full fire and fail to kill the space marine squad, he'll probably assault one or both of your plasma vet squads and likely win.

Demolishers will work well against the space marine infantry, the Defilers (if you can get within range) and the Rhinos. They aren't as good vs. Monstrous Creatures since they only give one wound if they hit. A Plasma Executioner with plasma sponsons might do more damage but costs a lot more points. Your best bet is probably just to mass fires from your HWS' and use Bring it Down from the CCS. Add in meltas or plasma guns if you have any within range. You might kill him in one turn but it will probably take at least two since he likely won't expose the Demon Princes to the full fury of your entire army.

As for the Manticore, I run one in a 2000 point list and it does very well. The enemy rarely hits it and it is a fantastic vehicle killer. What is surprising is that it is less useful as an infantry killer unless the enemy has hordes in the open (and without a Kustom Force Field for Orks). I use 10 vehicles though so my Manticore is usually obscured by a Chimera. The enemy tends to choose to shoot at unobscured targets. My list is also pure gun line so the Manticore is only one of many threatening targets.

Ok, so you don't think that the short range of the Melta Gun would be a problem then? If I swap the PG's in the infantry squads and change one of the Lascannon HWS to autocannons I'd be saving 45 points, where do you suggest I find the other points that I will need to include another 2 Chimeras and a veteran squad with Plasma guns?

When your mounted in a Chimera and shooting infantry, you can move 6" and fire out to 12", giving you 18" range effectivily.

Your to the point of taking away things that you want to pay for things you want. At that point you need to ask yourself if this will make you more tactically flexible or not. Do you want to be a anti-chaos marine guy? Well, you can taylor your army more towards that, but then you might lose some effectiviness against other things...

You need to decide what your tactics will be and stay focused on those tactics. Don't react to other's armies, force them to react to you.

Ok, I fight other people as well as Lash of Submission CSM guy, so I think I'm just going to stick to the original tactics of sitting back and shooting, while the Melta-gun veterans in the Chimeras and Demolishers go out and cause carnage.

Thanks.

Rampage wrote:Ok, so you don't think that the short range of the Melta Gun would be a problem then? If I swap the PG's in the infantry squads and change one of the Lascannon HWS to autocannons I'd be saving 45 points, where do you suggest I find the other points that I will need to include another 2 Chimeras and a veteran squad with Plasma guns?

The range issue is a red herring. Plasma guns are rapid fire, so unless you are sitting still they also have a 12" range. If your blob is sitting still you're doing it wrong.

A single or a few melta guns can accomplish something; a single plasma gun is not really that useful. IG rocks because they have units that can pack three or even four plasma guns or fire three plasma blast markers.

The ability of melta guns to crack vehicles adds to the utility of the blob; blow up the transport, charge the occupants. A plasma gun or two isn't much use; use them and they actually detract from what the unit can accomplish.

Perhaps curiously, the heavy support section is not where IG gets its anti-tank capability, that falls to the troops. The heavy support is actually better at anti-infantry including MEQ and TEQ. The exception is the Medusa, which can crack transports, add the bastion brechers and they become insanely effective against armor. Bastion breechers can be said to reduce the overall utility of the Medusa, but what do you want it to do?

If you want a really effective IG army, then forget about the points-intensive HQs and get men with guns. If you want to have fun then do what you think is fun.

The hybrid army is probably the hardest to get right; play veterans in Chimeras and about the only thing that can screw it up is putting heavy weapons in the units and parking all game. The Chimeras increase the survivability of the AV-12 heavy hitters from the heavy support section which aren't really good unless they are concealed.

All blob is okay but has obvious limitations; Al Rahem helps that style tremendously. This is what I play, not necessarily because I think it's the best IG style because I would be silly if I thought that. It's what I like. If I want to play mech., I'll pull out one of the other all-mech. armies I have.

None of the units are entirely useless, but some are better than others and some work well in certain combinations but not so well in others. The trick is figuring out a combination.

Look for several units that can pop tanks. This means melta usually; the only other good candidate is the Medusa. It's not just the penetration, you need the bonus on the chart.

Look for several units that can produce a result against transports reliably. Transports that aren't moving are nearly as good as wrecked transports. This usually means units with multiple autocannons, although extra anti-tank is fine. HWS's fit this bill, but they are fragile. Hydras fit this bill. The Exterminator technically fills this bill but it is not cheap.

You need units that can kill infantry. Hull-heavy flamers are the favorite here, but the IG have loads of good troop killers, including many of the Leman Russ variants. Well, make that "reasonably" good at least.

MEQ and TEQ killing are also super to have along. IG excels at this because there are multiple units that can pack multiple plasma guns. The Executioner is also a very fine option here.

If you are after effectiveness, you need the best combination of these units. That's why people love their veterans, they usually fill at least two of these roles plus they can hold objectives. So people use melta and plasma veterans along with command squads to field ridiculous amounts of special weapons. This is the chief strength of the IG. The ability to fire all of those weapons out of a transport is a tremendous help. It's like open-topped with no penalty.

If a particular style of play appeals, then you have to pick the units with articficial constraints in mind. This is not necessarily bad. If you like Demolishers, play Demolishers, but don't be fooled into thinking they are good choices, they really aren't. There are only a few circumstances where they are better than a battle tank and the range more than cancels that benefit.

I play an Executioner, a battle tank, and a Demolisher in most games because that's what I have and they are painted. I got most of this army second hand and I just haven't got around to optimizing this area.

The Executioner has rocked, the battle tank has done okay and with very few exceptions, the Demolisher has done nothing but draw fire. That's not all bad, but players who know what they are doing will go after the Executioner first anyway, but a combination of irrational fear of S10 and close proximity usually causes players to go after the Demolisher.

Two Demolishers would give one of them the chance to get something done; it's tough to take out multiple AV-14 vehicles in a turn.

I'm sick as a dog as I type this and I'd rather be playing Star Craft anyway, so I'm going to stop soon.

There are numerous routes to good builds with IG. Some things are pretty well set though. Veterans belong in Chimeras with three special weapons and the only choices are melta or plasma. Hull-heavy flamers add a great deal to the Chimera-heavy list. AV-12 heavy support benefit from a Chimera wall to hide behind. Conversely, AV-14 is indicated when there are not many Chimeras. Grenade launchers suck. Orders are sometimes helpful, but what you want is guns, guns, guns. Blobs need power weapons and commissars to be effective at fighting. Priests can be helpful.

One last random thought just in case you are still reading this; Lash makes blob(s) cry. It's a bad match up.

Right, today I went off and bought a command squad and a squad of jungle fighters, as well as a box of knightly orders for my Empire, so I'm going to start assembling my CCS and Infantry squad 1.1 from the platoon (Commisar to be added soon). I am hoping to upload the progress that I am making to the army to the blog soon but am just re-posting another updated version of the list just to check that I am giving my men the right equipment. The general tactic is staying the same, and this list is similar to the previous one just with some minor tweaks. I think this list is at a total of 1995 points.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Carapace Armour

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Power Weapon
-Flamers (4x)

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Lascannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher


Thanks for all of your help.

Rampage wrote:
Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)

This unit would dearly love a Chimera. It's a lot of points to just eat lead.

Rampage wrote:
Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Carapace Armour

If this guy is going to hide with the HWS's, then a cloak is very handy and the other stuff probably wasted points. If he's going with the CCS, then it really needs a Chimera.

Rampage wrote:
Platoon Command Squad 1
-Power Weapon
-Flamers (4x)

Foot units with flamers have no real chance of success, especially when they are five, Sv5+ wounds.

Rampage wrote:Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)

Another unit that will be vulnerable without a Chimera.

I like the list mostly, I don't care for the Lord Commissar, I think those points could be better spent. I would absolutely rather have Chimeras for both Command squads and the third veteran squad than those HWS's. And unless you intend to advance aggressively, the Demolisher's won't fit well. Their range will prevent them from being able to screen the Manticore, and you have only one foot unit to screen them. Granted it's a pretty good sized unit, but it's still one unit and Demolishers are very vulnerable to assault.

I apologize if I've overlooked things that have been discussed before.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Regimental Standard
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Lord Commissar
-Power Weapon
-Plasma Pistol
-Camo Cloak
Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Power Weapon

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Power Weapon
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Power Weapon (Sergeant)
-Melta Gun

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Autocannons

Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher


Ok, I have given both the CCS and the Palsma vets Chimeras to keep them alive, but this brings my total up to 2070pts. Any suggestions to where I could shave the extra 70 points from? I've decided to keep the Lord Commissar. The idea being that he is going to camp amongst the HWS's and keep them from running away.

Thanks for your help.

Rampage wrote:Ok, I have given both the CCS and the Palsma vets Chimeras to keep them alive, but this brings my total up to 2070pts. Any suggestions to where I could shave the extra 70 points from? I've decided to keep the Lord Commissar. The idea being that he is going to camp amongst the HWS's and keep them from running away.

Thanks for your help.

Aside from dropping the Lord Commissar (that's a lot of points that isn't doing much), I can see two obvious, easy choices; drop one HWS, or swap the lascannons for autocannons and switch the Demolishers for Battle Tanks.

The first option is easier, but the second one probably makes the list better. Autocannons are better than Lascannons in many situations, and Battle Tanks are more versatile and fit with a gun line better than Demolishers.

Whole reason he has the Commissar is for Creed to give orders to his heavy weapon squads. This was made in favor over my suggestion of Kell, as well as to keep them from running off if people shot at them.

To be frank, your suggestions and his eariler posts is giving his list an identity crisis. Is he doing a gunline guard or is he now attacking with the blob? You seem to be suggesting to him to go on the offensive.

But this is why I told him to figure out his tactics and stick to them.

Rampage... what do /you/ want to play? Do you want to attack and be agressive or do you want to sit back and shoot? Then you need to choose /how/ you want to do this, as there are multiple ways of doing both. But Guard seem to work best doing one or the other. You can do both, but as a new player, the tactics and coordnation needed might be beyond you right now to work it effectivily.

Ok, I'm going to sit back and shoot. So I might want to re-think the Melta guns, maybe just not give them special weapons at all?

I gave the CCS a Chimera to stop them dying whilst issuing orders, and I think that this is probably also sensible for the Plasma vets, not to allow them to rush forward with the Melta gun vets and the Demolishers, but to make it harder for the opponent to get a kill point off of them. In fact, the Lord Commissar does seem like an easy kill point so I think I'll probably remove him and take Kell, as Creeds orders should be able to keep them in the fight (Up to 4x Get back in the fight).

I think I'll probably also take the power weapons off of the sergeants in the infantry squads in the platoon, as if they are going to be sitting back and shooting they seem a bit of a waste of points, as 10 points for a single power weapon seems a bit excessive, and this should save me 40 points if I take it off the commissar as well. Taking the Power weapon off the PCS seems a good idea as well, maybe giving them 4 GLs? But then again, maybe not.

Thanks again for your help.

I'm hoping that this is to be the finished version of my list, but I don't mind making changes. The general tactic is that I sit back and shoot, while the Melta wielding veterans in their Chimeras and the demolishers move forward and make scrap out of enemy vehicles and generally cause carnage.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Colour Sergeant Rock (Kell)
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1

(The 3 Infantry Squads below are 'blobbed')
Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar - Plasma Pistol
-Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Grenade Launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapon Squad 1.3
-Autocannons

Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera -Heavy Flamer (replacing Heavy Bolter)

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher


I make this list at exactly 2000 points.

The CCS is going to camp in their Chimera and make lots of orders while the veterans shoot at things with their Plasma Guns. The Chimera is there for protection so that they won't die as easily, not so that they can speed around.
The PCS is going to sit around and make addtional orders, and the platoon itself is going to make up the bulk of the defnsive gunline, with the Lascannon HWS being used to provide additional anti-tank to take out heavier vehicles (especially any Monoliths that come my way, as the veterans in the Chimeras won't have much luck against them due to the living metal special rule), while the Autocannon HWSs take out lighter vehicles and after the demise of these, heavy infantry. I may be underwhelmed with the performance of the grenade launchers that I have given to the ISs but they are better than nothing I suppose. The Commissar now has a Plasma Pistol because I had 10 points spare, he has a BS of 4 and because I can.

So yeah, the Veterans in the Chimeras move forward and tank bust from the safety of the Chimeras while the demolishers follow them and give them support to decrease the chances of the Chimeras being busted.

The manticore makes up the rest of the sit back and shoot group but I will keep it away from the board edges to protect it from infiltrators and so forth.

Ok, so once again comments and criticism are appreciated and thanks for your help.

your using numbers for your platoon and squad yeee

When you switch from an assault based list to a gunline list, you have to alter the organization, equipment, and tactics of the infantry platoon.

In many situations, you may not want to blob the squads. Instead, you will use multiple lines of squads, one behind the other, with enough separation to make 3" blast templates nearly useless, make 5" blast templates affect 3 models at most, and prevent enemy units from assaulting multiple infantry squads at the same time. If you set it up correctly, his assaults get to eat one of your infantry squads a turn, and then you get to shoot his assaulting units during each of your shooting phases. You almost never want him to remain stuck in assault during your shooting phase.

While the commissar is a must in an assault power blob list, he may be a liability in a pure gunline as noted above when you don't want to hold the enemy up in assault during your shooting phase. In any case, don't give him a plasma pistol. Yes, he is BS4 but he only has 1 wound and carapace armor. If his plasma pistol overheats and kills him, you just lost 45 points and your blob - if you're using it - is no longer Stubborn, LD 9.

In pure gunline, you can also put the heavy weapons back into the infantry squads. The advantages are that the weapons are more survivable and cheaper. The disadvantages are that you don't get the benefit of massed heavy fire in conjunction with orders, that you waste your lasgun fire when your heavy weapons are firing at vehicles, and your infantry squads are getting destroyed in assaults each turn in order to "bubble wrap" the rest of your army. Every time one of those squads dies, you lose a heavy weapon.

So maybe you should compromise:

Drop the Commissar's plasma pistol

Drop an autocannon HWS and put the three autocannons in your PCS, and two infantry squads

Use the saved points to buy a fourth infantry squad with a grenade launcher.

When you deploy, use the two plain infantry squads that don't have autocannons as the outermost layer of your "bubble wrap". Keep the other two squads with autocannons further back so they get to shoot for more turns. You might even blob them on an objective with the commissar if you're so inclined so that you can use a "Bring it Down" or "Fire on My Target" for both autocannons. Creed would then have four units with heavy weapons to receive his orders (the two HWS, the PCS with autocannon, and a two squad blob with two autocannons).

In a pure gunline, I'm not a fan of Demolishers or Chimeras with heavy flamers. Try them if you like them, but the way I see it. A gunline relies on massed long range firepower so that you can shoot the enemy every single turn with as much firepower as possible. You are not moving a lot of models in your first three turns because you don't want to lose any shots.

You also want to shoot the enemy off of his objectives because you won't be able to assault him and you probably won't get any models to move close enough to contest. I don't think two Chimeras with melta vets and two Demolishers are enough to get to his objectives and contest them. You're much more likely to see four wrecks or smoking craters out in the battlefield between your deployment zone and his objectives. Why? Because you have no "bubble wrap" to keep his infantry from assaulting your four vehicles or to keep his melta weapons more than 6" away.

Creed allows you to scout with one unit but an empty Chimera, a lone veteran squad on foot, or a Demolisher won't do much Outflanking by themselves...unless your opponent is really careless.

Just my two cents on pure gunline. It's the way I prefer to play my IG but I like a lot of infantry, Chimeras, one Vendetta, and artillery. And my infantry (other than the two CCS) is often not riding in the Chimeras. They're just pillboxes and LOS blockers that fire multi-lasers, heavy bolters, and heavy stubbers.

Ok, thanks for the help. I have removed the Plasma pistol from the Commissar and one of the AC HWSs. I have given the PCS and 2 of the ISs Autocannons and bought another IS with a GL. I decided that I wanted to keep the Demolishers and the Chimeras however. I feel that I would enjoy games more if there was another aspect to my list other than sitting back and shooting whatever looks menacing, is sitting on an objective or isn't in combat, although I can see how the pure gunline would be effective and why people enjoy playing it. So I chose to keep them, although I am not going to use Creeds rule that allows a unit to outflank and I am either going to keep them all together or bring them on in reserve from my table edge.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Colour Sergeant Rock (Kell)
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1
-Autocannon

Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar
-Autocannon

Infantry Squad 1.2
-Autocannon

Infantry Squad 1.3
-Grenade Launcher

Infantry Squad 1.4
-Grenade Launcher

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Autocannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Melta Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Demolisher

Leman Russ Demolisher

Manticore Rocket Launcher

At the minute this list is 1990 points. Any suggesstions to how I could improve this list would be helpful. Thanks again for your help.

look, i've been reading most of what people have been saying on earlier posts, and i have to disagree with most, if not all they had to say.

what you need to work do is make a Mechanised Guard list. i use one and it hasnt really failed me.

roughly this is what i use

CCS
power weapon
x2 Meltagun
Carapace Armour
Vox (no matter what has been said, i take these for peace of mind. i rarely use Orders, but its a good feeling to know that when i do the Vox is there to help get that order through)
Chimera

(depending on my mood i might take a Lord Commissar)

Platoon (roughly comes out at 900pts)

PCS
Power Fist
Vox
Medi Pack (despite what some have said, the medi pack has been a life saver on many an occasion for me. so dont pay attention when they say its not worth it)
Platoon Standard (i will agree that this is useless, but i like the way i painted my banners, and who knows maybe it will come in use someday)
Flamer
Chimera (with Hunter Killer. they arent very effective, but again peace of mind in know they are there just in case i need it is always good.

x5 Infantry Squad
Power Weapon
Flamer/Grenade Launcher (i have never use Meltaguns or plasma guns in my platoons. never needed them. and i wouldnt waste my points putting HWs into the infantry squads either. the infantry would just die before i get a chance to use them anyway. so i wouldnt have them in your squads. it really isint worth having them in there)
Vox
Krak grenades (just in case i get to charge a tank)
Chimera (hunter Killer)

Veteran Squad
Power weapon
x3 Meltagun (this is the only place i find meltaguns belong. and dont put a HW into your Vet Squads. they have the same problem as with the infantry squads. with the added disadvantage, that you want to keep them moving anyway, so you cant get a shot off with the HW)
Carapace Armour

x2 Vendetta (separate squadrans. the greatest Anti-Tank the guard have. you'll want them in your army, no matter what type of army your designing you guard for)

Leman Russ Battle Tank (with a HB at the front, no sponsons. dont take Sponsons on an ordinary Russ. you'll want to keep it moving, and never put Plasma Cannon sponsons on anything other than a Executioner. it just isint worth it no matter what anyone says)

Leman Russ Demolisher (Lascannon, no Sponsons)

Leman Russ Executioner (Lascannon, Plasma Cannon Sponsons)



this comes to just roughly 2000pts (depending on what i decide to add in or take away)

on occasion i will vary my lists around this. i've even experimented with Rough Riders much to everyone elses laughter, or add a Hellhound instead of the executioner, or add Vanquisher etc.

tbh, the thing i should point out, is that playing with the guard is no easy matter. you have to find your own way of playing with them. i've been playing with them for over 3 years now, and im only starting to get good at them after a lot of trial and error. (in fact, i lost all but 2 games the year i started playing)

to sum up that last statement.....dont pay attention to anyone here (even me) because no matter what suggestions are put out here, what works for one might/will not work for you.

Well, your advice is not helping Rampage make a list /he/ wants to play, which seems to be a static gunline list. Mech Guard is a assault list, as it wants to charge forward, not sit back and shoot.

a gunline list doesnt work as well as that. and considering that i've only had objective games for the past 4 months means that i've needed to use a Mech Guard list.

plus he has the same 4 in 6 chances in getting an objective game as all of us. how well do you think a gunline list works in an objectives game?? it never has for me. all of my infantry units are destroyed before i get a chance to do anything with them. his will suffer the same fate on more than one occasion.


plus i added at the bottom of my comment that he shouldnt pay attention to anyone, even me. most of the people who have commented have given Rampage the most random, and useless advice i've ever seen.
i mean Plasma Cannons on a regular Russ??? the Russ works better without Sponsons, same with the Demolisher.

same goes for Veteran Squads in Chimeras. Vet Squads are glorified Suicide Squads. because of this, i prefer to have them mounted in the Vendettas or Valkyries, and charge across the table taking out any heavy tank in their path, then being swiftly destroyed after.
i understand that the advantage of moving 6" and then firing their Meltaguns from the safety of the tank is appealling, but that method is slow and you'd never get them in the position you want them in, in time. thats why i have a platoon Meched up, so the vets can die taking out something important.

and dont get me started on the issue with the Medi packs and Vox Casters

J. Hillen-Keene wrote:
and dont get me started on the issue with the Medi packs and Vox Casters

Heh... I hear you. I think they have their place in certain lists or certain builds. But I can't argue that Medics are to expensive and voxs for 5pts in a IG list could be a special weapon or a special weapon upgrade. I run Creed and I run foot guard, so orders are an important part of my list, including Kell and voxs. But I think it is a testiment to IG that you can win with different versions from the same book. There just is no one single golden build for IG.

I think Rampage can win with several of the lists he posted, but he needs to play with guard and get his feet wet to find his style. I understand he wants to be able to buy X things and be done with it, but spending a ton of money on a 2k list that you don't enjoy can really hurt...specially when the general rule for 40k is 2 bucks per point... and mech Guard is not cheap.

no its not cheap. which is why im telling him to ignore everyone here, and to go out and use trial and error to refine his list. asking the people here for advice is pointless. they all bark out different ideas and weapons choices, and all of it what i read was useless. but thats only my opinion on those.

what he/she should do, is buy what they want to buy, use whatever list they want to use, and then buy stuff only if he/she thinks its necessary

J. Hillen-Keene wrote:no its not cheap. which is why im telling him to ignore everyone here, and to go out and use trial and error to refine his list. asking the people here for advice is pointless. they all bark out different ideas and weapons choices, and all of it what i read was useless. but thats only my opinion on those.

what he/she should do, is buy what they want to buy, use whatever list they want to use, and then buy stuff only if he/she thinks its necessary

So you're really just saying that everyone should stop posting in the 40K Army List forum since they're just going to get conflicting advice? Or perhaps you're saying that no one should post in Dakka at all because every thread ends up with conflicting arguments?

Isn't the point of any of these threads to get a wide range of opinions? Then the onus is on the OP to sort and weigh the merits of each argument, ask for supporting information or clarification, and then come to his own conclusion.

As for everything begin useless, I'd say he got a lot of decent advice but for several different army list builds. When he settles on the tactics he wants to play, he can refine it to best match the opponents he plays regularly in his locale. Obviously, each poster in this thread is heavily influenced by his own experiences and local meta and that does lead to recommendations that may be less suitable to his own.

As for running out and buying whatever he wants and then playing it, refining, buying more, refining...ad nauseum. It's not a great idea if you want to save money but its not a terrible idea either. Just don't be surprised to end up with 4000 points of IG before you finally have a Take All Comers list that you play all the time. I did it that way and I've got about 4500 points right now. Thank goodness I never shelled out for Ogryns. Cool models but really unsuited to my style of play.

Right, so here's what I'm going to do. Hopefully I'll be playing a couple of games on Friday (with my army being mostly proxyed) with the last list that I posted. I'll then post the games to the battle reports section and post a link to it in this thread, so that it will be easier to understand exactly what I plan on doing with my list. If not Friday, the next time I play a game or 2. These tactics will then set the framework for how I can improve the list to make the tactics work more effectively, and I will change my list accordingly. After the games, I will tinker with my list as much as someone with my lack of experience with Guard can and then I'll post another updated version of the list back to this thread. Thanks everyone for all of your help.

no, im saying that dakka should stay as is, with one exception. the removal of the Army List section.

i say this because no one learns anything from this place. the only place you can learn how to effectively play any army is on the table. thats where i learned to play the guard effectively, and im sure that is where you learned to too.

in my lists i have only taken 2 suggestions from a friend, and that was the addition of Vendettas, and adding a HB to Harkers squad. and this guy is known to give really good advice to most people i know, but i rarely take on anything he suggests, mostly because i want to learn from my mistakes.
him and almost everyone else i know have told me that i need more Meltaguns in my army. hell he even laughed at me when we played each other, because i didnt take a single meltagun in my army, yet i destroyed him with Multi-Lasers and a LRBT (another of the vehicles he says to drop) i still lost the game though because it was objectives, but i stand by my decision.

im not going to stand here and say that i never made a mistake. infact i went head to head against a Marine Mech list with a mix of mech guard and foot guard, mostly foot, and got my ass handed to me. i learned from that, that if i want to play against the best players (well the best where i live) i have to Mech everything up because thats exactly what the best players do to win. and because of that, i have barely lost a game since. granted i do draw a lot of the time. but drawing is not exactly the best thing either, and i continue to try to break the stalemate im stuck in by varying my list.

point is, how can anyone learn to play an army on the table if they keep coming here for advice?? they dont.
that is why im telling Rampage to ignore what everyone here is saying. infact i would say that to everyone on Dakka, because its just pointless. first hand experience is always the best way to play, and you cannot argue that.

and besides, he/she is no stranger to 40k. why he/she is asking for advice is a puzzle in itself. he/she knows what works, has played against the guard on more than one occasion, i would suspect, and should know from experience to just work on the list himself/herself without outside interferrence.

as for buying new stuff, i cant really argue. but using magnets on the tanks works best to save money. no guard player should ever have more than 3 Russes in a list. preferably 2 Demolisher boxes (this box has the 2 tanks you really want to use) and 1 ordinary Russ box (because the tanks in this box are ok to say the least. although im a fan of the battle tank).
where infantry are concerned, he's on his own. lol

Rampage wrote:Right, so here's what I'm going to do. Hopefully I'll be playing a couple of games on Friday (with my army being mostly proxyed) with the last list that I posted. I'll then post the games to the battle reports section and post a link to it in this thread, so that it will be easier to understand exactly what I plan on doing with my list. If not Friday, the next time I play a game or 2. These tactics will then set the framework for how I can improve the list to make the tactics work more effectively, and I will change my list accordingly. After the games, I will tinker with my list as much as someone with my lack of experience with Guard can and then I'll post another updated version of the list back to this thread. Thanks everyone for all of your help.

There are options beside fully mechanized for IG. One might argue that mech. is best, but it isn't the only viable option.

A static gunline is probably not one of those sadly. Two of the the three missions are real problems and even Annihilation can be a problem as gunline lists tend to have a crap-load of units. If you don't go first, you'll be charged on turn two by too many bad guys.

I play a little mech along with my two platoons, or at least I did. These days I'm playing a little IG as allies to my With Hunters. But my IG were competitive enough, certainly enough to crush a mech IG army in their last tournament.

The last list I commented on was pretty good, I thought. Even if Creed is a points sink and Demolishers aren't the best option. The Demo's would draw fire from the veterans and it's the Veterans that your oponents really need to be worried about.

There's no reason to give it to the "all-mech, all the time" urge, unless you want to. I beat my friends all-mech IG armies with my Witch Hunters - with and without allies, with my Kan Wall, and with my mostly foot IG. Mech is not a panacea, it will not provide auto-wins.

Ok, so I have just double checked my points for the list and have discovered that I have made a complete mess of the maths, as the last list that I posted is not 1990 points, it is actually 1780 points.......... Well done me. The good news is that I now have 220 more points to spend, so I have updated my list again to use up these remaining points. This is the list that I am planning on using in the games that I have coming up.

HQ

Company Command Squad
-Colonel Greiss (Creed)
-Colour Sergeant Rock (Kell)
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Troops

Platoon 1

Platoon Command Squad 1

Infantry Squad 1.1
-Commisar

Infantry Squad 1.2

Infantry Squad 1.3

Infantry Squad 1.4

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.1
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.2
-Lascannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.3
-Autocannons

Heavy Weapons Squad 1.4
-Autocannons


Veteran Squad 1
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 2
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Veteran Squad 3
-Plasma Guns (3x)
-Chimera

Heavy Support

Leman Russ Executioner

Leman Russ Executioner

Manticore Rocket Launcher

Ok, so this list is now (definately) 2000 points. I have doubled my HWSs so that I am now creating a huge amount of heavy firepower. However, having 6 Lascannons and 6 Autocannons seems to make the Melta Guns in the Veterans squads that are rushing forwards in the Chimeras a bit redundant, so I have also swapped these Melta Guns over for Plasma Guns. I have also decided to swap the Demolishers for Executioners, as they have a longer range and are better suited for accompanying 2 of the Plasma Veterans, as it is not essential to get closer to the enemy to be able to hit them, although it is still more effective if I do so. To get these extra points together however I did have to remove the heavy weapons from the PCS and 2 of the ISs, although there is not as much use for them now that I have 2 AC HWSs. I also had to remove the GLs to make an extra 10 points.

Ok, so the Platoon is going to be in the middle of my force, shooting things and not moving much, and It shall be accompanied by the Manticore, the CCS in their Chimera and one of the Plasma Gun Veteran squads in their Chimera. In addition to this, on each flank I am going to have an executioner and a squad of veterans. These are going to be moving a bit but not so much that they are too far away from the main bulk of the force, unless they need to make a rush for an objective towards the end of a game.

If I have just managed to completely ruin the army list please drop a comment, and if there are ways that the extra points that I discovered could be better spent, please drop a comment as well. In fact, if you have any suggestions, please drop a comment or leave criticism.

Thanks.

I think you will find it difficult to find useful places to deploy four HWS's, I sometimes use three and it can be difficult even then. I think you will also find that the massive investment of Creed and Kell to give orders to HWS's is not worthwhile. You will also likely find out that lascannons and autocannons do not a substitute for melta make. The autocannons are cheap and HWS can be effective in some situations - they make Raiders and Venoms go away nicely - but don't pin your anti-tank hopes on them or you will be disappointed.

I don't see any equipment on the Infantry squads. If they are to stand and shoot, they need heavy weapons. This isn't a good use of Infantry squads, but they need something, a reason to be in the list. Since you have a Commissar, I'm guessing you intend to blob at least some of them. Blobs without power weapons are nothing but tar pits. Blobs with power weapons are an effective way to use Infantry, especially when melta guns are thrown into the mix.

You will probably want to use the Executioners to screen the Manticore. It will draw fire and AV-12 is not durable. The Executioners have sufficient range to do this in most cases, Battle Tanks are obviously more versatile in this regard, but the Executioner is SO much better in other ways.

If you want a more competitive list, drop Creed and Kell and get another CCS. Plasma is a great choice for this unit. Put some melta back in the Veterans. Drop the lascannon HWS's and spend those points on tooling up the blob so it can do something. That means power weapons, melta guns, possibly melta bombs, and maybe a Priest. There's a reason they call the 50-man power blob the Duke Nukem unit.

The best reason to use Creed is his unique order. You have nothing to take advantage of that order. I would want at least two CC units before I sprung the points for Creed. The only CC unit available that's worth taking is a power blob. Six power weapons, an Eviscerator or two, plus Furious Charge? You can see the whole Duke Nukem idea here can't you? Give that unit Scouts and Furious charge and you will make people cry.

If you are just enamored of orders, two CCS's make more sense. Of course they need Chimeras and guns, but Chimeras and guns are want you want, they are what makes the IG so over-the-top good.

If Creed and Kell are your idea of fun, they groovy. I would still drop the lascannons for more gear for the blob and put in some melta. The Executioners have the plasma covered, the autocannons and even the lascannons if you keep them, do not have the anti-tank covered. Anti-tank is all about AP1, well it's all about hitting the target too, which two reasons are why Veterans with melta are so beloved. Storm Tropers make reasonably good suicide melta units too.

Ok, thanks for your help. I'll play the games that I've got coming up with the last list that I posted and then I'll probably go about tweaking it.

I suppose I could drop 1 of the Lascannon HWSs, I don't want to drop them both because I know what it's like to be facing a Monolith and all of your anti-tank involves Melta Weapons/Monstrous Creatures, and it's not nice. So I'd like to include at least some S9 weaponary.

A power blob seems brutal, but a unit like that would probably involve moving my force about a bit more and that's not really what I am trying to achieve.

I might think about 2 CCS, but it might be more expensive if I am wanting to mount them both in a chimera, although I would get the same number of orders only swapping, 'for the glory of cadia' for more plasma guns. But then if i remove Kell as well I could get enough points, but I'm not sure that I want to do that, I enjoy having a wide range of stuff that I can get my minions to do.

But yeah, I'll probably put the meltas back into the 2 veteran sqquads if I'm removing one of the Lascannon HWSs. I'll also give the Infantry squads whatever I can afford. Not a big fan of giving them heavy weapons though. I gave my guardians heavy weapons when Eldar was my main force and hated it, and they were still assault after moving. So I'll probably give them whatever I can afford, but I'll make sure that they all have the same so that I can blob them and make it harder for my opponent to get kill points off of me.

Thanks again for your help.

pzbw7z wrote:I think you will find it difficult to find useful places to deploy four HWS's, I sometimes use three and it can be difficult even then. I think you will also find that the massive investment of Creed and Kell to give orders to HWS's is not worthwhile. You will also likely find out that lascannons and autocannons do not a substitute for melta make. The autocannons are cheap and HWS can be effective in some situations - they make Raiders and Venoms go away nicely - but don't pin your anti-tank hopes on them or you will be disappointed.

I don't see any equipment on the Infantry squads. If they are to stand and shoot, they need heavy weapons. This isn't a good use of Infantry squads, but they need something, a reason to be in the list. Since you have a Commissar, I'm guessing you intend to blob at least some of them. Blobs without power weapons are nothing but tar pits. Blobs with power weapons are an effective way to use Infantry, especially when melta guns are thrown into the mix.

You will probably want to use the Executioners to screen the Manticore. It will draw fire and AV-12 is not durable. The Executioners have sufficient range to do this in most cases, Battle Tanks are obviously more versatile in this regard, but the Executioner is SO much better in other ways.

If you want a more competitive list, drop Creed and Kell and get another CCS. Plasma is a great choice for this unit. Put some melta back in the Veterans. Drop the lascannon HWS's and spend those points on tooling up the blob so it can do something. That means power weapons, melta guns, possibly melta bombs, and maybe a Priest. There's a reason they call the 50-man power blob the Duke Nukem unit.

The best reason to use Creed is his unique order. You have nothing to take advantage of that order. I would want at least two CC units before I sprung the points for Creed. The only CC unit available that's worth taking is a power blob. Six power weapons, an Eviscerator or two, plus Furious Charge? You can see the whole Duke Nukem idea here can't you? Give that unit Scouts and Furious charge and you will make people cry.

If you are just enamored of orders, two CCS's make more sense. Of course they need Chimeras and guns, but Chimeras and guns are want you want, they are what makes the IG so over-the-top good.

If Creed and Kell are your idea of fun, they groovy. I would still drop the lascannons for more gear for the blob and put in some melta. The Executioners have the plasma covered, the autocannons and even the lascannons if you keep them, do not have the anti-tank covered. Anti-tank is all about AP1, well it's all about hitting the target too, which two reasons are why Veterans with melta are so beloved. Storm Tropers make reasonably good suicide melta units too.

Aparently you never used Creed, or you used him badly, along with Orders... Two CCSs with a range of 12", 2 Orders each, using the HWS's leadership with no chance of a Vox re-roll equals failure. That is just really bad advice there, period. That is why there are two ways of using Creed, with Kell or with a Lord Commissar. Either way your using Orders at Ld 10, Kell is a standard so a Moral or pinning re-roll (at 12") and the Lord has his Stubborn bubble (at 12"). They are both effectivily worth 70pts. Having the ability to give Orders 24" away means your HWSs are spread out more along a 4' area, but for BiD both units have to see the enemy. As for Creed's unique order, that is mearly a bonus and makes Creed that much more flexible of a HQ unit, along with his ability to give any Infantry or vehicle unit Scout, so you can outflank a squadren of Russes if you wanted to. If your not using Creed, your not serious about using Orders.

Plasmaguns are rapid fire weapons. I think you still want Meltaguns on those units that are moving forward to engage the enemy. I also don't like to see naked PISs or a naked PCS. I just see no good coming from them to be honest. I would advise dropping the Plasmaguns on your vets to meltas and giving the blob some power weapons or even a Auto-Cannon or two and give your PCS some weapons.... anything really. He throws a few power weapons in that blob and uses "for Cadia!" and that squad will do some damage to anyone on the charge, weather he moves forward with it or holds it back to protect against DSing units.

Good Luck Rampage... I wouldn't change the list till you get a couple of games in.

Ok, I've played my first game with this list this afternoon. I have posted a battle report of it (which can be found in this link http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/373484.page ). This particuar battle report was against Lash of Submission guy, and more battle reports will come to that thread as I play some more games over the course of this week. The next game is suppossed to be on Sunday Vs Tyranids. I think I've got some ideas on how I can improve my list from this game, but if anyone has any suggestions as to what I could have done better in this game or how else to change my list they would be very welcome.

Thank you!