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Ok I dont want too do the easy KP route.
Im doing a Dakka Biker army. Now how do I set my Koptas out. Im just not seeing the benefit in a 70P model thats usually more expensive than its tank and sucks if you dont get Turn one.

I might take them though but when or If I get the Second turn I outflank them?

Jidmah wrote:The Kopta has two CCWs, but the Buzzsaw counts as Powerklaw, which counts as Powerfist, which would not allow a bonus attack unless wielding two Buzzsaws.

KingCracker: I've read this multiple times now, on different threads, so I was actually not sure if I didn't miss something.

Ahh that does make more sense. I actually skimmed through the thread thinking I missed something



IV - Yes, if you take deffkoptas, on turn one typically you want to turboboost them across the board. If you go 2nd, then yea you outflank them. Chances are actually decently in your favor they will get the table edge you want. Either way, you can still turboboost them and get 3+ cover saves so they will still be an annoyance to your opponent and still be able to do what you want, mostly. The only thing that can hoe you with the outflank is they could sit in reserves for most the game. When that happens, your only real option is to contest objectives like a mofo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh yea, and outflank rules are in the back of the book in the missions sections. So you can read up on it.

Okay I've been refraning from posting a creative answer here, but since the OP has defined his reasoning I think it's safe to say I can make a post now

Drop the koptas. Just don't consider them. Warbuggies do shooting better for a tougher value and bikers do the assualt better. Koptas are too expensive for what people want them to do and then expect them to success every single time. It's a waste of a Kill Point and quite an expensive Kill Point at that. You will want something better.

That's my opinion so.

Hey, Im with ya, I prefer rokkitbuggies over koptas. But since the discussion is about koptas, Im giving advice on the koptas. Me though? Rokkit Buggies, more for less, and they almost ARE a guarantee to pop transports/light vehicles, and they make the nicest blockers in the codex. When I run my trukk/bw list, I use rokkit buggies to block the trukks/wagons for cover saves, you know, after they fall out of the initial KFF bubble. Not to mention they are blockers that are cheap, and shoot TL rokkits back at the enemy

Ah, but I have no armour In my list. It's a Biker list.
Koptas are better if you get the first Turn. They also make people think twice about putting they're vehicles within 18" of a Board edge. Im taking two.
Its for 1750P ToS Autumn GW HQ. Tournemant at 16 Im determined too be the higest high ranker with a Non-Kan wall ork list. Or battlewagon rush. I just hope that my tactical mind will do me favours.

Im just wondering are there many 16 years olds or is it mainly adults.

InquisitorVaron wrote:Ah, but I have no armour In my list. It's a Biker list.
Koptas are better IF you get the first Turn. They also make people think twice about putting they're vehicles within 18" of a Board edge. Im taking two.
Its for 1750P ToS Autumn GW HQ. Tournemant at 16 Im determined too be the higest high ranker with a Non-Kan wall ork list. Or battlewagon rush. I just hope that my tactical mind will do me favours.

Im just wondering are there many 16 years olds or is it mainly adults.

Notice the If I decided to make bold. It's a big If, if you ask me. Too much of an If for the unit. And you don't really cause someone to rethink their army plans unless you take 3 slots of the buggers, but then you're missing out on the warbuggies or more bikers. All your opponent has to do is cover his rear end and sides and shoot you silly when you turn up. Granted it's bikers so potentially you have a better chance of scoring hits. Do NOT rely on that though.

@KingCracker. I wasn't having a go at you mate, I respect you being an orky player and that you know far more than me I just hate Deffkoptas and the folicy of "HURR DURR GIVE DEM BUZZSAWS AND ROKKITS AND SUICIDE DURRRR". It really ticks me off.

Hey no worries, I wasnt taking what you said against me. I completely agree with you is all I was saying

If someone asked me, Id tell them rokkit buggies are worth having children with

another aside on okkit buggies.. the GW models suck ... alot

but for chepa you can go on ebay, buy some AoBR deff koptas and then a few snips and glue on some wheels and you have some cool lookling buggies

^Or you can do my latest wet dream; Make them out of venoms.... *TwitchTwitchdrool*

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:Ah, but I have no armour In my list. It's a Biker list.
Koptas are better IF you get the first Turn. They also make people think twice about putting they're vehicles within 18" of a Board edge. Im taking two.
Its for 1750P ToS Autumn GW HQ. Tournemant at 16 Im determined too be the higest high ranker with a Non-Kan wall ork list. Or battlewagon rush. I just hope that my tactical mind will do me favours.

Im just wondering are there many 16 years olds or is it mainly adults.

Notice the If I decided to make bold. It's a big If, if you ask me. Too much of an If for the unit. And you don't really cause someone to rethink their army plans unless you take 3 slots of the buggers, but then you're missing out on the warbuggies or more bikers. All your opponent has to do is cover his rear end and sides and shoot you silly when you turn up. Granted it's bikers so potentially you have a better chance of scoring hits. Do NOT rely on that though.

@KingCracker. I wasn't having a go at you mate, I respect you being an orky player and that you know far more than me I just hate Deffkoptas and the folicy of "HURR DURR GIVE DEM BUZZSAWS AND ROKKITS AND SUICIDE DURRRR". It really ticks me off.

IF you use the them like you indicated in your caps part, no wonder they don't do anything. Obviously many people preach suicide buzzsaws that turboboost being the holy grail, but most of them probably never used them effective.
First of all you do not need three koptas. Two work just as well many times, so there is still room for buggies.
Second, the buzzsaw is not a no-brainer, three attacks S7 are no where near a guarantee to actually do something, so not always worth the points. You can get lots of more useful stuff 50 or 75 points.
Last point is, their duty is not to blow up tanks. Their duty is to make sure that manticore, fire prism or whatever scary long-range artillery gets shaken and does not fire for one or two. Anything beyond that is a bonus. Alternately they are great for tying up walker without DCCW(hello GK!), blocking a path for vehicles or simply pulling a bubble-wrap out of the way.
You also don't have to suicide them, even if you go first. Against some armies, they are much more valuable staying in reserves as they don't have the resources to take care of a single kopta while tons of boyz are beating on them. There are some armies which don't have any real targets to send them after, in that case you can still use them as unit of 2/3 that can't be killed in a single shooting phase and never tests for 25% casualties.

Versatility is their power, if out of all those possibilities you just always use their "HURR DURR SUICIDE"-option those points are obviously wasted.

Jidmah wrote:IF you use the them like you indicated in your caps part, no wonder they don't do anything. Obviously many people preach suicide buzzsaws that turboboost being the holy grail, but most of them probably never used them effective.
First of all you do not need three koptas. Two work just as well many times, so there is still room for buggies.
Second, the buzzsaw is not a no-brainer, three attacks S7 are no where near a guarantee to actually do something, so not always worth the points. You can get lots of more useful stuff 50 or 75 points.
Last point is, their duty is not to blow up tanks. Their duty is to make sure that manticore, fire prism or whatever scary long-range artillery gets shaken and does not fire for one or two. Anything beyond that is a bonus. Alternately they are great for tying up walker without DCCW(hello GK!), blocking a path for vehicles or simply pulling a bubble-wrap out of the way.
You also don't have to suicide them, even if you go first. Against some armies, they are much more valuable staying in reserves as they don't have the resources to take care of a single kopta while tons of boyz are beating on them. There are some armies which don't have any real targets to send them after, in that case you can still use them as unit of 2/3 that can't be killed in a single shooting phase and never tests for 25% casualties.

Versatility is their power, if out of all those possibilities you just always use their "HURR DURR SUICIDE"-option those points are obviously wasted.

Now tell that to the Orky players on hear that rattle on about using it for just the purpose I pointed out Your ideas are sound. If I did take Koptas I'd take groups of 5 and create a flying wall. But Bikers do that better with a constant cover save so Koptas get made redundant in that regard.

When I joined this forum and watched all the Ork advice buzzkoptas were the most common thing to pop up, besides the KFF Big Mek. And almost eveyr time I saw the same opinion given:
"Fill your FA slot with them, one kopta a slot. Give them twin rokkits and a buzzsaw and attack a transport ASAP. Got first turn? TUrboboost then assault ASAP. Not first turn? Outflank and try again."
This is a waste of valuable FA slots. Yes, they're valubale - all FOC slots are valuable regardless of what's in them. And wasting 180-210pts on 3 koptas that die fast and waste 3 KPs in the process is a prime reason for it being a waste.
So to cover your points Jidmah:
1) 2/3 koptas, potentially, but I'd go outright and say none.
2) Buzzsaw's aren't exactly no brainers - it's more situational. That and yes, relying on 3 str7 attacks is not a good idea as you've said. Much more value in putting the PK on a Nob somewhere.
3) Outflanking a nasty idea if coupled with Kommandos so I can see merit with it. Big squads too will cause a mess but it's still an investment of points so. Matter of choice.

I'd rather not go with the 5 kopta wall, as they are missing something very important that 5 bikerz do have: A Bosspole. I've seen them put with a Warboss(+BP) on a Bike, but that seems like bending it to me.

I agree to everything else you said(especially about people echoing the same advice over and over), with the little condition to 1) is fielding buggies or other rokkits instead.

Koptaz are expensive buggies and bad warbikers. But they are both at once.

Im going too run a biker list. So I have no Vehicles the Warbuggies just die since I have No KFF since everything gets a 4+ Sv anyway.

Im think Buzzkoptas are just their too threaten artillery. If they're is none I just outflank them and Big shoots something. I would agree at 60P they are costly. But for 120P I dont think you can find a better artillery threat.

InquisitorVaron wrote:Im going too run a biker list. So I have no Vehicles the Warbuggies just die since I have No KFF since everything gets a 4+ Sv anyway.

Im think Buzzkoptas are just their too threaten artillery. If they're is none I just outflank them and Big shoots something. I would agree at 60P they are costly. But for 120P I dont think you can find a better artillery threat.

Well 105pts gets you 3 twin-rokkit buggies.

Honestly if you worry about light armoured gun platforms dying, you'd be using them wrong You use the bikers as shields. Warbuggies ride along behind the bikers - you get your cover save and you have more bodies.

He's just worried that sence they will be the only armour in his list, that it will attract all the anti-armour in the world, where as if he takes koptas, then the anti-armour weapons will be less useful.

Few things:

First, check and see how your local group treays first turn assaults. Vehicles are hit based on how fast they moved in their last turn...the first turn not having had a previous turn means that how they are hit has to be a house rule. Some people play auto hit, some play 4+.


Next (assuming auto hit), look a bit deeper at what the koptas do.

Two units of one kopta each, armed with rokkits and buzzsaws can threaten the entire table. If you go first, then their turbo scout move means that they can literally threaten to assault any vehicle that starts on the table. And since any assault is resolved against the rear armor, that means there are a LOT of nice fat targets.

How many SM have a predator, whirlwind or vind in their army? Rear AV 10. Deploying them so that they cant be assaulted will tie up at least one more SM unit without the kopta even having to move. How about IG artillery? Much easier for the guard to deploy bodies around the armor, but its still going to force them to do that. And even valk/ vendettas have to worry a bit. Other ork armies have to watch their BW. Eldar pretty much have to start in reserve.

Many armies have to radically adjust their deployment because of a couple koptas. With three attacks at Str7 at least one shaken result is almost guaranteed (well over 90%) on AV 10. And the rokkit even might do something.


And thats the biggest reason to use koptas, to disrupt your opponents basic plans. Force them to reserve units that they didnt plan on reserving, force them to deploy screens that they really didnt want to deploy. Make them waste time trying to kill those two koptas on their first turn, which draws fire from your assault wave.

The 120 points of koptas may or may not kill 120 points of models, but 120 points of koptas will throw your opponent off his plan.


Sliggoth

Thanks. Thats just what I needed.

Rokkit Koptaz with buzzsaw are 70 points, not 60. Just saying...

Juvieus Kaine wrote:

Jidmah wrote:IF you use the them like you indicated in your caps part, no wonder they don't do anything. Obviously many people preach suicide buzzsaws that turboboost being the holy grail, but most of them probably never used them effective.
First of all you do not need three koptas. Two work just as well many times, so there is still room for buggies.
Second, the buzzsaw is not a no-brainer, three attacks S7 are no where near a guarantee to actually do something, so not always worth the points. You can get lots of more useful stuff 50 or 75 points.
Last point is, their duty is not to blow up tanks. Their duty is to make sure that manticore, fire prism or whatever scary long-range artillery gets shaken and does not fire for one or two. Anything beyond that is a bonus. Alternately they are great for tying up walker without DCCW(hello GK!), blocking a path for vehicles or simply pulling a bubble-wrap out of the way.
You also don't have to suicide them, even if you go first. Against some armies, they are much more valuable staying in reserves as they don't have the resources to take care of a single kopta while tons of boyz are beating on them. There are some armies which don't have any real targets to send them after, in that case you can still use them as unit of 2/3 that can't be killed in a single shooting phase and never tests for 25% casualties.

Versatility is their power, if out of all those possibilities you just always use their "HURR DURR SUICIDE"-option those points are obviously wasted.

Now tell that to the Orky players on hear that rattle on about using it for just the purpose I pointed out Your ideas are sound. If I did take Koptas I'd take groups of 5 and create a flying wall. But Bikers do that better with a constant cover save so Koptas get made redundant in that regard.

When I joined this forum and watched all the Ork advice buzzkoptas were the most common thing to pop up, besides the KFF Big Mek. And almost eveyr time I saw the same opinion given:
"Fill your FA slot with them, one kopta a slot. Give them twin rokkits and a buzzsaw and attack a transport ASAP. Got first turn? TUrboboost then assault ASAP. Not first turn? Outflank and try again."
This is a waste of valuable FA slots. Yes, they're valubale - all FOC slots are valuable regardless of what's in them. And wasting 180-210pts on 3 koptas that die fast and waste 3 KPs in the process is a prime reason for it being a waste.
So to cover your points Jidmah:
1) 2/3 koptas, potentially, but I'd go outright and say none.
2) Buzzsaw's aren't exactly no brainers - it's more situational. That and yes, relying on 3 str7 attacks is not a good idea as you've said. Much more value in putting the PK on a Nob somewhere.
3) Outflanking a nasty idea if coupled with Kommandos so I can see merit with it. Big squads too will cause a mess but it's still an investment of points so. Matter of choice.

The main reason for that is Im pretty sure Dash said thats how he used them. Dont get me wrong, Dash has well earned his merit of being a badass Ork player, but he also suffers a bit from that. He started playing lootas in units of 5....and suddenly thats how you have to play them (again it works great but still) He could say the bestest way to win any match is to use chaos spawn and people would start swearing by it.

Im just saying just because someone like Dash can pull it off, doesnt mean I can. I dont travel the country kicking peoples asses, so my personal experience isnt anywhere near his I agree, using koptas as suicide units isnt a smart play. I rarely use a unit in my games for suicide as usually I cant recover from. Only if the reward is worth it, and at 70 points a pop they are not worth it.

KingCracker wrote:The main reason for that is Im pretty sure Dash said thats how he used them. Dont get me wrong, Dash has well earned his merit of being a badass Ork player, but he also suffers a bit from that. He started playing lootas in units of 5....and suddenly thats how you have to play them (again it works great but still) He could say the bestest way to win any match is to use chaos spawn and people would start swearing by it.

Im just saying just because someone like Dash can pull it off, doesnt mean I can. I dont travel the country kicking peoples asses, so my personal experience isnt anywhere near his I agree, using koptas as suicide units isnt a smart play. I rarely use a unit in my games for suicide as usually I cant recover from. Only if the reward is worth it, and at 70 points a pop they are not worth it.

...Somehow that wouldn't surprise me Dash appears to the guy who wins all on here and loves pointing people towards his success. Probably expalins why people pick up on his tricks instead of creating their own.

... Now I'm tempted to make an Ork tactica

I dont take a Rokkit. Saves points so its 60P.
Anyway its not suicide. It takes out something. If anything its a suicide bomber unit.

So how will you use your Koptas and why?

InquisitorVaron wrote:I dont take a Rokkit. Saves points so its 60P.
Anyway its not suicide. It takes out something. If anything its a suicide bomber unit.

Killing something before you suicide does not make you not suicide. Also you should rather leave the buzzsaw off than the rokkit, close to no vehicles can be reliably hurt by TL-big shootas, and you are using koptaz to attack vehicles. Where's the logic in that?

KingCracker wrote:Ok using them as the standard against nids, I could see going your route a bit. But going against IG/SM then yea, the cookie cutter is the way to go. TL rokkits/buzzsaws and go nuts on the transports/tanks and such. Seriously, its the only way to use them against MEQs

thats not exactly a bad thing. I fear there are so many meq armies now that soon all that will be lift is tanks.

Jidmah wrote:

InquisitorVaron wrote:I dont take a Rokkit. Saves points so its 60P.
Anyway its not suicide. It takes out something. If anything its a suicide bomber unit.

Killing something before you suicide does not make you not suicide. Also you should rather leave the buzzsaw off than the rokkit, close to no vehicles can be reliably hurt by TL-big shootas, and you are using koptaz to attack vehicles. Where's the logic in that?

Exactly. Id rather have the TL rokkits then a buzzsaw, THATS how you save points. a TL BS2 rokkit shot, is slightly better then a BS3 shot, so you have a slightly higher then 50% chance to hit a vehicle with a STR8 rokkit.

A Buzzsaw....well it does ok if the vehicle doesnt move, which isnt very often. And even then its only good on AV10/11. AV12 or higher and your just hoping for good rolls, and hoping is the first step in losing.

I use Deffkoptas in every list.

70 point suicide unit may sound like a poor choice, but if used right, it's worth it's weight in gold.

If I go first, I scout, Turbo Boost and get in range for a shot/assault first turn.

If I go second, all of them go in reserve for outflanking.

I have turned the tides of battle numerous times with Outflank. -- It throws a wrench in the enemies tactics. People either ignore it in which case it wreaks havoc on their vehicles/infantry, or they go after it ignoring the massive Kan Wall moving up the field. I haven't had a game where in terms of point value, the Kopta didn't pay for itself by taking out something worth more than the 70 points I spent on it (either directly or indirectly).

But, the drawback I suppose is the fact that I'm using them with an already competitive Kan Wall, so that may inflate the usefulness I get out of them.

Either way. Outflank is AWESOME.