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Scarey Nerd wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:There's anywhere from a few tens of thousands to many millions depending on the size of the major orders and the number of minor orders at ay given time.

Basically, GW was lazy and didn't care. Which is about par for the course really.

So in other words, SoB where to replace SM Legions by numbers?

Let A be 1 Astartes, S be 10 SoB and I be 100 IG:

A=S=I

Each has a completely separate function, however. All 3 are military institutions, but with different purposes.

Dude, she said from tens of thousands to many millions depending on a order. Seems Logical to replace old Space Marine Legions with them, with SoB zeal there is no chance that they go rough like Legions in HH. And if one thing need the Imperum now it's saviors...

Brother Coa wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:There's anywhere from a few tens of thousands to many millions depending on the size of the major orders and the number of minor orders at ay given time.

Basically, GW was lazy and didn't care. Which is about par for the course really.

So in other words, SoB where to replace SM Legions by numbers?

Let A be 1 Astartes, S be 10 SoB and I be 100 IG:

A=S=I

Each has a completely separate function, however. All 3 are military institutions, but with different purposes.

Dude, she said from tens of thousands to many millions depending on a order. Seems Logical to replace old Space Marine Legions with them, with SoB zeal there is no chance that they go rough like Legions in HH. And if one thing need the Imperum now it's saviors...

Logical it may be, but the Ecclesiarchy and the Astartes have different goals. The Adepta Sororitas fight wars of faith and defences, they don't crusade on xenophobic hunts like Marines. They have different purposes, as I said, that's all I meant. When I said A=S=I, I was in fact agreeing that SoB COULD replace them, as 10 Sisters are equal to 1 marine in fluff terms, but they wouldn't, no matter how logical it would be.

Uhm, yeah they do. Sororitas participate in crusades.

I think there's still around 30K. They'll probably bump it up a little in the next 'dex though. I'm basing this on the fact that fluff-wise I can't recall a situation where more than 50 have been in the same place at the same time post Apostasy-crisis.

Melissia wrote:Uhm, yeah they do. Sororitas participate in crusades.

But to the point that the Ecclesiarchy would replace the Adeptus Astartes with them? Having said that, there ain't exactly love lost between the two institutions, if the Ecclesiarchy could oust the Marines I wonder if they would... But I stand by my point, the SoB wouldn't replace them I don't think, the Astartes are too good at what they do.

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Melissia wrote:Uhm, yeah they do. Sororitas participate in crusades.

But to the point that the Ecclesiarchy would replace the Adeptus Astartes with them?

How exactly would the Ecclesiarchy, whom has no overt legal authority over the Imperial Guard nevermind the Astartes whom are supposedly beyond Imperial authority, do away with the Astartes so they could replace them with the Sisters?

Melissia wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Melissia wrote:Uhm, yeah they do. Sororitas participate in crusades.

But to the point that the Ecclesiarchy would replace the Adeptus Astartes with them?

How exactly would the Ecclesiarchy, whom has no overt legal authority over the Imperial Guard nevermind the Astartes whom are supposedly beyond Imperial authority, do away with the Astartes so they could replace them with the Sisters?

By killing them all? I'm not the one that suggested replacing the Marine Legions with the Adepta Sororitas, I'm just arguing against it.

A brutal, bloody 3rd civil war seems like a great idea. Win-win for everyone.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:A brutal, bloody 3rd civil war seems like a great idea. Win-win for everyone.

And hence it wouldn't happen Until there's another Ecclesiarch as insane as Vandire, that is, though since the Throne fails in M999 the Ecclesiarchy might have a bit of a shock :S

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Melissia wrote:Uhm, yeah they do. Sororitas participate in crusades.

But to the point that the Ecclesiarchy would replace the Adeptus Astartes with them?

How exactly would the Ecclesiarchy, whom has no overt legal authority over the Imperial Guard nevermind the Astartes whom are supposedly beyond Imperial authority, do away with the Astartes so they could replace them with the Sisters?

By killing them all? I'm not the one that suggested replacing the Marine Legions with the Adepta Sororitas, I'm just arguing against it.

Easy there, I was not suggesting that. I was just implementing to SoB numbers. That in the end there will be so much Sister that they would have the number of Space Marine LEgions before Heresy...
Why would they replace Space Marines? They are Emperor's chosen warriors, they have gene-seed from his sons fro crying out loud...

Brother Coa wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Melissia wrote:

Scarey Nerd wrote:

Melissia wrote:Uhm, yeah they do. Sororitas participate in crusades.

But to the point that the Ecclesiarchy would replace the Adeptus Astartes with them?

How exactly would the Ecclesiarchy, whom has no overt legal authority over the Imperial Guard nevermind the Astartes whom are supposedly beyond Imperial authority, do away with the Astartes so they could replace them with the Sisters?

By killing them all? I'm not the one that suggested replacing the Marine Legions with the Adepta Sororitas, I'm just arguing against it.

Easy there, I was not suggesting that. I was just implementing to SoB numbers. That in the end there will be so much Sister that they would have the number of Space Marine LEgions before Heresy...
Why would they replace Space Marines? They are Emperor's chosen warriors, they have gene-seed from his sons fro crying out loud...

Ahh, fair enough, I misunderstood Preheresy legion numbers would be about 2,000,000?

I don't know, I always tought that Space Marine legion number up to 10.000 Marines. I only know that TS have very small numbers of Marines...

The smallest Legions are 80,000 Marines. The largest have hundreds of thousands.

80,000?

Damn, how many marines than the Largest Legion had?

Wait, the largest Legion was Ultramarine Legion right?

Yes, Ultramarines were largest. We don't know how many though. (My personal theory is 600,000).

When I said 2,000,000, that was in total. So if each legion had 100,000, then that x20 would be 2,000,000.

EDIT: ...Epic fail... Forgot about Legions II and VI... 1,800,000 then

Some background quotes and theorising copiy and pasted from a much older thread so it may be a little disjointed but should provide some useful infromation never-the-less:

The following passage from Codex: Sisters of Battle states:

'In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order numbers between 3,000 and 4,000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim. These warriors are spread througout the galaxy in various battle zones and on extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched as needed.'

We know that there are six Major Orders which would account for no more than forty thousand Battle Sisters but that does not take into account the Lesser Orders. However it is said that the Major Orders are 'by far more numerous' than the Lesser Orders. Presumably this would mean that the Major Orders have more Battle Sisters and not there are more Major Orders than Lesser Orders.

Codex: Witch Hunters says that the Orders membership waxed and waned from 'a couple of thousand of warriors to many thousands' although it continues the statement that the Major Orders 'are far more numerous' than the Lesser Orders. The Codex goes on to say later than the largest amount of Battle Sisters an Order is ever likely to field is a Preceptory, numering no more than 1,000 warriors and this is congruent with the information provided by Imperial Armour Volume II where a Preceptory of 1,000 Battle Sisters from the Order of the Ebon Chalice defended their Reclusiam on Magdellan Prime which saw 660 of the Sisters killed.

More recently the 5th Edition Rulebook states that there are only three Major Orders each numbering several thousand warriors and many Lesser Orders numbering a hundred or so Battle Sisters.

With that information in mind, the numbers we are given indicate a maximum number of Battle Sisters within the Imperium of several tens of thousands, certainly less than one hundred thousand.

Codex: Witch Hunters actually says, 'Every major world in the Imperium belongs to one of the Cardinal Dioceses and will therefore host at least one Ecclesiarchal cathedral and a multitude of servants, dignitaries and clerics. Such a concentration of the Ecclesiarchy's power must be defended, and so a significant force of battle sisters will be present at many such sites. The sisters provide a visible presence, guarding holy sites, escorting hierarchs, ensuring that the common citizen is suitably deferential in the presence of the great and good of the Ecclesiarchy, and that the coffers are filled at collection time.'

If we analyse that paragraph it throws up a number or problems. Firstly, what constitutes a 'major world'. Secondly, what constitutes a 'significant force' of Battle Sisters. Thirdly, the Sisters provide a 'visible presence'. Fourthly they provide protection to 'many such sites'.

To determine what might constitute a 'Major World' we can look to the types of world within the Imperium as detailed in the 3rd Edition Rulebook. There are: Civilised Worlds, Agri Worlds, Hive Worlds, Feral Worlds, Dead Worlds, Death Worlds, Feudal Worlds, Forge Worlds and Research Stations.

Somewhat arbitrarily I would reduce that list to Civilised, Agri and Hive Worlds. Firstly because they make up the highest proportion of worlds in the Imperium and because other than Forge Wrolds which are unlikely to have a significant Ministorum presence if any, the other classes of world don't seem particularly major; they are less numerous within the Imperium and their populations are small and their civilisations limited. Those types of worlds included then account for about two thirds of the Imperium or roughly 690,000 worlds. This already reduces the amount of Battle Sisters necessary to prosecute the Ministorum's will effectively.

Then we move on to the 'significant force'. The less Battle Sisters there are the more significant each one becomes. the presence of a Preceptory of 1,000 Battle Sisters is not a significant force if there are several or tens of millions of Battle Sisters, indeed it would be quite a paltry force. Given the numbers we have, a significant force could well be several dozen Battle Sisters.

Then we have the 'visible presence' element of their duties. A Battle Sister does not have to do anything to provide a visible presence other than to walk around the shrine from time to time, they wouldn't even necessarily have to be there all the time, just often enough so that local people know a Battle Sister is there frequently.

Lastly, they only provide protection and a presence to 'many such sites'. Since the passage also establishes that Battle Sisters are only really there to look mean, make sure the Ministorum's bigwigs don't get jeered at and make citizens cough up some money for the collection then it would appear that for the most part the Battle Sisters are used as a marker of prestige and so it would logically follow that whatever holy place the Ecclesiarchy did not deem as prestigious would be left in the care of its local Frateris and would not have the boon of a Sororitas presence.

Of course that is merely conjecture although I feel that, from the background, it establishes that the Battle Sisters do not have the sort of presence it is often assumed that they have and such gargantuan numbers of Battle Sisters aren't really required.

Lastly, the Battle Sisters do not launch Wars of Faith. Wars of Faith are declared by the Ecclesiarchy and that due to the Decree Passive, only the Battle Sisters provide the Ecclesiarchy's legitimate standing fighting forces. Add to that the Battle Sisters lead the way in such wars. Equally it can be said that a Crusade might be lead by Astartes fighting at the very forefront of the major offensives even though they would provide only the merest fraction of the Crusade's fighting body. Since the Frateris Militia can be of any size and that the Imperial Guard also take part in Wars of Faith is there any reason to assume that several hundred, or several thousand Battle Sisters might not be enough to provide the spear tip of the fighting forces? Certainly it is quite a leap to assume that the Battle Sisters would constitute a significant proportion of any War of Faith (also assuming that the particular War of Faith was itself significant and not, as the example given in the Codex says, of a Confesor declaring a War of Faith against a single excommunicated world.


Like I say, the question of what a significant force is or is not is entirely predicated on the total number of Battle Sisters. Based on the numbers we are given a force of 4,000-4,500 Battle Sisters seems highly exaggerated. Even if the preference was for more Battle Sisters as more of them (an argument along the same lines as a Chapter needing 10,000 Battle Brothers or more) seems like a more reasonable figure and seems to be more logical, if it were true, if there are 2.6 billion Battle Sisters that is a truly monumental force, the presence of which is not hinted at in the background.

We know what Battle Sisters do and we know about some of the battles they have taken part in but for a force of elite warriros that might outnumber the Astartes over two and a half thousand to one they don't actually do very much. Take Armageddon for example, when numerous Chapters turned up that was a staggering display of force, but if several million Battle Sisters had turned up, a similar proportion, then the Battle for Armageddon would have been over in weeks.

I don't deny that even a thousandth of that number would still mean that there are a few million Battle Sisters and if, using the numbers given in the background as a guide would mean, even accounting for only 600,000 worlds, there would only be one Battle Sister for every fifteen planets, which doesn't seem hardly enough. However, given the lack of presence of Battle Sisters in the major conflicts of the Imperium it doesn't really seem that unreasonable that an Order's Battle Sisters travel from world to world and rarely, as Codex Witch Hunters sates, have a Preceptory worth of Battle Sisters in one location.

Battle Sisters would be continually travelling on a circuit, guarding Ministorum bigwigs as and when they decided to go somewhere or show their faces to the great unwashed. They would drop by the more pre-eminent holy sites where a small handful of Sisters (truly a significant force in comparison to the small number of Battle Sisters which exist) would guard the relics but generally they will be continuously on the move.

There is no consistency in GW numbers..

First, it was safe to assume 10.000 per legion would be a good guess.
Then came a HH-series and changed the picture.

At Ullanor, a celebration of the victory over the greenskins, a 100.000 marines from multiple Legions paraded before the Emperor.
At monarchia, the Emperor had a 100.000 WordBearers kneel before him.
At Isstvan, tens of thousands marines died.
At prospero, only 1000 T-sons fled alongside Magnus. Later some of those absent from Prospero return, maybe 1000 + x of them is the final size.

GW didn't use higher numbers than 40-50 for Legions companies/chapters. If a 1000 marines is the next smaller organizational group of a Legion, 50 x 1000 would just be 50.000. But maybe authors are fond of small numbers, like 4th co or 12th co ....

Edit: typo.

Just a note, not sure if that's a misquote or a typo or inaccurate or what, but "1000k" is "a thousand thousand", or, reading it another way, you're saying that "a billion Thousand Sons fled alongside Magnus".

I'm not sure that there were a billion Thousand Sons... seems a bit off.

Psienesis wrote:Just a note, not sure if that's a misquote or a typo or inaccurate or what, but "1000k" is "a thousand thousand", or, reading it another way, you're saying that "a billion Thousand Sons fled alongside Magnus".

I'm not sure that there were a billion Thousand Sons... seems a bit off.

Actually, a thousand thousand is a million

Psienesis wrote:Just a note, not sure if that's a misquote or a typo or inaccurate or what, but "1000k" ......

Right, my bad.
Was intended to be either 1000 or 1k but somehow ended as both..