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AvatarForm wrote:OP - good comparative arguement.

However, it is not the cost of the hobby that annoys me, but the obvious price discrepancy between currencies and GW's apparent belief that they should be able to control the distribution of their products beyond their initial supply chains.

Yes, there are a couple of things going on at the moment. One is annual price adjustments, which don't bother me in the least. GW's average price increase (factoring everything they didn't increase the prices on) is lower than the price increases for many other goods, most of which are necessities, rather than luxuries. Milk, Beef, Gasoline, Coffee - all up more than GW prices. And for GW to give their employees an annual price adjustment, so their employees can afford to buy these necessities, they kind of need to raise prices.

The other is this Australia thing. I really don't understand international finance though, so I have few thoughts on the matter, other than it sucks (for you) to lose access to the discounts you had become used to using.

augustus5 wrote:... I just don't equate painting or converting time with entertainment. ... I fully understand and respect that many people do enjoy the painting/converting side of the hobby, but it's just not that way for me.

Let me start by saying that I do respect your choice to participate in whatever aspect of the hobby you want. Now that disclaimer is out of the way, since you have volunteered this position, let me ask why you decided to get involved in an expensive hobby with a high 'chore' aspect, instead of alternative games? For example, there are pre-painted miniature games (HeroClix, among others), there are non-miniature wargames (Advanced Squad Leader), there are other games to play with your friends (RPGs, boardgames) or competitively (M:tG, Chess), and all are both cheaper, and involve less of things that you consider chores. This isn't an attack, I really am curious, are GWs rules and game so strong that you're willing to not only pay their prices, but also to add activities that you don't enjoy to your life in order to play them?

Having kicked myself up the @55 to start painting not long ago, despite being in the hobby about a year, I'm in a decent position to see both sides of the argument, for and against painting. And I agree with you, Redbeard. Great post.

Furthermore, I'd like to add that I'm an incredibly slow painter. This is because I suffer chronic OCD, and as such I need everything to be stroke-perfect before I can be satisfied with a miniature. If anything, however, this is a bonus, as it means I get to squeeze every last drop of value from the initial purchase, in that it - the process of painting - lasts even longer.

Once again, good stuff, Red.

Redbeard wrote:

Let me start by saying that I do respect your choice to participate in whatever aspect of the hobby you want. Now that disclaimer is out of the way, since you have volunteered this position, let me ask why you decided to get involved in an expensive hobby with a high 'chore' aspect, instead of alternative games? For example, there are pre-painted miniature games (HeroClix, among others), there are non-miniature wargames (Advanced Squad Leader), there are other games to play with your friends (RPGs, boardgames) or competitively (M:tG, Chess), and all are both cheaper, and involve less of things that you consider chores. This isn't an attack, I really am curious, are GWs rules and game so strong that you're willing to not only pay their prices, but also to add activities that you don't enjoy to your life in order to play them?

For Warmachine, many players find the gameplay and the story
compelling enough to draw them in. I know many people who have spent
more hours playing the game than they would have painting the
miniatures, thus getting their money's worth. Just think, if we could
get them to enjoy painting that army, it'd be like added value!

You could equate this to how some people view adding a luxury
addition to their house. Some feel the money is well spent contracting
the work because it means they'll have more time to enjoy the
addition to their house. Others wouldn't even think about building an
addition to their house unless they got to have the real enjoyment of
putting it together themselves.

Redbeard wrote: It's usually the same people who post 'I shouldn't have to paint my models if I don't want to." And they're right, they shouldn't have to, but it makes economic sense to learn to enjoy doing it

No it doesnt. I can have just as much fun with it whether its painted or not.

carmachu wrote:

Redbeard wrote: It's usually the same people who post 'I shouldn't have to paint my models if I don't want to." And they're right, they shouldn't have to, but it makes economic sense to learn to enjoy doing it

No it doesnt. I can have just as much fun with it whether its painted or not.

Given the original post, I think a better argument would be that
the 6 hours you spent modeling could have been spent as 6 hours
gaming with those unpainted models, increasing the enjoyment per
hour you get out of a miniature.

Painting a warlord or an amusing stormboy is a pleasure.

Painting the 80+ AoBR boys that grin at me when I walk into the games room will not be, it will be a fething chore and I remain torn over whether to try and paint them to a good standard and at a snails pace or just spray and dip the entire bunch.

Redbeard, you make this (sensible) argument when the price has gone up before and I think I've said the same thing before, it's perceived worth. You compare the miniatures with owning and running a motorbike or a set of golf clubs and golfing fees. I equate them with the price of other miniatures, so:



Warlord Games Celts - 30 for $32. (this is further discounted by buying in bulk). - $1.06 per model



Wargames Factory Celts - 32 for $20 - 63c per model



Games Workshop Marauders - 16 for $35 - $2.19 per model

I find this higher cost difficult to tolerate and the continuous and rapid increases even more so. The plastic to metal prices a couple of years back and now the metals to resins price increase are all blatant greed, not legitimate business necessity.

Now, many will counter with GW's own argument that they have a store in every city to support. Firstly, totally irrelevant to me, I live nowhere near one and when I did, back in Bristol, I visited an indy store instead, which had a multitude of tables and coffee and toilets and lack of aggressive marketing.
Secondly, and this is the bit that should counter that, having the stores open to recruit, having an international presence and far greater manufacturing ability and with that, buying power for resources, GW's produce should be lower in price than the other companies as a result of being a far larger and international company. So, why isn't it? I have been reliably informed by some folks at Nottingham that it is just down to the profit being taken out of the company to pay for high wages at the top and inflated prices to try and hold share price.
And why aren't we seeing that hightened price causing major profit in the EOY financial reporting? Because GW is venting customers and failing to recruit new, because it's perceived worth is now exceeded for a great many new recruits (and more importantly, new recruits parents...). It's actual sales are down. Culling staff, moving stores and licensing IP to computer games have so far limited this and perhaps they might see another miniboom with the hobbit films, but I am sure the company is not performing favourably and the direction it's heading in for some time is not aiding this.

I enjoy converting and making figures - but I royallly suck at painting - decades of trying have not got me anywhere and I have the cash (and certainly not usually the time) to ask someone else (who does enjoy doing it) to do it.

I also got sick of "ruining" expensive figures with bad paint jobs

malfred wrote:

Given the original post, I think a better argument would be that
the 6 hours you spent modeling could have been spent as 6 hours
gaming with those unpainted models, increasing the enjoyment per
hour you get out of a miniature.

Well yes thats the long winded answer. I could get 2-3 games in the time you took to paint the model.......but you dont necessarily have to paint them to enjoy them. Everyone gets something different out of the hobby- I like modeling and playing. I could care less about painting. The OP might like to paint and play. Your mileage varies....

I also find myself using this rationale, also using going to the movies (one of my preferred pastimes) as a baseline. I go with my wife, and we like to each get a drink and we share a popcorn. That usually runs about $40 total, so $20/hr - probably the most expensive hobby I engage in.

That being said, I find painting my minis to be an unpleasant chore. I love the modelling and assembling and the painting, though.