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Just a random thought I had this morning on the way in to work. I was thinking about the comparative costs of various types of entertainment, and how much they cost.

Some stuff I have bought this year:

Portal 2 (Video Game). Cost me $45, I think. I played through it in probably 6-8 hours, wasn't keeping that much track. Very enjoyable. Works out to about $6/hour.

New music album (I'm too old to buy singles on iTunes). Generally costs about $12-15 for about 45 minutes. But has a high replayability factor going for it.

Tickets to see a movie (Wife and I): $20 for what is generally 2 hours. So, about $5/hour (per person).

A dog: You can get them cheaper than I did (I went to a breeder). But, even still, if you're responsible, you're probably looking at between $100-$150/month in dog upkeep costs (food, obedience classes, treats, toys, vet bills spread out, replacing the gloves the little monster ate... but I digress). But a dog gives you a lot of hours of enjoyment, right? But pets, in general, aren't cheap. Just saying.

Concert tickets: $60+ per person. Shows tend to last 3-4 hours depending on the opening acts. Call it 4, and we're looking at $15/hour.

Ticket to NFL game: $68 (more for playoffs). Games last three hours, but we get there early to watch warmups and pregame activities, so call it four. $17/hour.

Dinner out (standard): Going to typical place, like a brewpub, or an Olive Garden (or other chain restaurant), with one drink each, tends to cost about $40-$50, including tip. Considering we could cook the same stuff at home for $10-20, the 'going out' part is worth about $20 for two people, spread over an hour, or about $5/person/hour. (If you include a dessert, you get the higher prices, but extend the time a bit, you know).

Riding motorcycle: At $4/gallon of gas, a 60mph speed limit, and 45 mph, a little math tells me that this costs $5.33/hour, without factoring in the cost of the motorcycle, tune-ups, or insurance.

Well, what's my point?

Battlewagon: Using the new prices, $66 + $4 (for the wheels taken from a toy truck) + $15 (upgrade sprue) + $10 (other assorted bitz used) - call it $100. Yeah, for people complaining about the $66 tag on battlewagons (or other vehicles), I typically spend quite a bit more for the conversions I like to do.

Okay, but here's the thing.

Time to build the model: six hours, at least. I'm one of those who compulsively files all mold lines, drills gun barrels, and so on. I rebuilt the entire underside of the vehicle to accommodate wheels instead of tracks.
Time to paint the model: 20 hours, at least. I think I spent over eight hours on the yellow alone.

Even using these conservative time estimates, and using the inflated battlewagon prices, I'm still looking at under $4/hour for my entertainment dollar. That's more reasonable than dinner, a movie, a concert ticket, a sport event ticket, or a video game - and that's before considering any games that it might be used in.


I'm not trying to justify GW's pricing system, nor anyone's ability, or choice, to pay for these things. Instead, I'm trying to present an alternative view into the worth of a hobby. I enjoy painting minis. I enjoy building and converting models. I've been doing both for thirty years now. If someone were to ask me, are GW products worth the money, I'd have to say yes. To me, they are. I get a better return on my entertainment dollar painting and modelling than almost anything else I do for fun.

Compare that with spending $66 on that same battlewagon, clipping the sprue and assembling it quickly, and slapping on a bit of paint and some drybrushing. Call it three hours. Now this less expensive battlewagon is costing $22/hour, plus whatever gaming time you get out of it. $22/hour for entertainment!? That's worse than anything I listed above. I'd bristle at paying that much for so little entertainment. I'm not at all surprised that people who really aren't into modelling or painting take umbrage at the rising costs.


I rarely see hobbiests griping about price changes. Sure, none of us like them. But I still feel like I'm getting my money's worth (My entertainment dollar), even if the costs go up a little. Movies, Sport tickets, concert tickets, even gasoline - they're all up in price too. It's usually the same people who post 'I shouldn't have to paint my models if I don't want to." And they're right, they shouldn't have to, but it makes economic sense to learn to enjoy doing it

Good post, I've mused along those lines as well. It's not a straight correlation though----because there is a 'level' of fun involved as well. For example---2 hours of playing with kids is more enjoyable than 2 hours of scraping mold lines. So you would need to add that weight as well.

Then, consider their prices compared to other miniature lines.

I think its an interesting take on "why to paint your models." Very much appreciated. I'm certain you will have some say "well i can save money and skip the painting." I'm a hobbiest. I like to game, paint, play, and be the guy bs'ing about fluff. But I understand not all are. I look at painting as expanding my gaming experience.

A pretty good post. I disagree that everyone should put more time in the hobby aspect. Sure you get more, but not everyone enjoys the hobby aspect as much. To some people, painting is a chore or even worse, nonessential. For me I enjoy gaming more, but I still make time to paint my minis to a table top standard and am even beginning to enjoy the hobby more. As AgeOfEgos said, there are different levels of fun. I would much rather play games with the new stormravens I have then paint them.

But level of fun is very variable. I find removing mold lines to be very relaxing. I can kind of zone out of everything, sit in a room while my wife does her hobbies and just scrape. It's not as much fun as going to a concert, but, then again, it's a lot cheaper by the hour too.

As for other miniature lines - yeah, I have considered those too. Realistically, I don't think GW's prices are much higher than the other lines that I consider. I love Freebooter miniatures, excellent sculpts. But they're $14 for a single 25mm model, and more for slightly larger ones (Warstore.com prices).

Mantic has some really cheap stuff for filling out armies. But the models I really like that they're doing are like this guy: http://www.manticgames.com/Shop-Home/Orcs/Lords-and-Heroes/Product/Orc-Krudgers-Gang-3-Figures.html - $25 (via currency converter), compared with GW's $22.25 for the orc chief on boar (Plus standard bearer). Avatars of War Orc on Boar is $31.

I'm not looking for bargain basement models. I know there are cheaper minis out there, and I'm sure they have their market. But I look for a certain something in the models I want to paint, and the companies that have that something are very comparable to GWs prices. I'm not trying to defend GW here - they might have set that price point and these other companies followed their lead. But I have done the comparisons with other companies and it is not as one sided as a lot of people make it out to be.

Its a good point and it does get raised every now and then when the price rises get discussed. I guess its one way of looking at things; personally speaking, I don't feel the need to quantify every activity as a cost per hour ratio. Assembling and painting miniatures will always win over say a video game purely due to the time investment that is needed to assemble and paint them. Unfortunately, I am not sure that it really is a fair comparison; if it were true, no-one would go to the movies because a film only lasts 2 hours whereas the book might take twice as long to read. Not sure you can boil everything down to this cost per hour level unfortunately but its a valid point to raise; there are many facets of enjoyment to wargaming.

This is a very good explination of how much a hobby is worth. The building and painting are both key to the gaming. And the investment at the beginning can (for some of us) last for a very long time. Building and painting are to me more of the hobby than gaming. As I said to my girl friend building and painting are the big parts, gaming is just the icing on the top.

alphaomega wrote:Building and painting are to me more of the hobby than gaming. As I said to my girl friend building and painting are the big parts, gaming is just the icing on the top.

+1!

Both painting and modeling are fun for a limited amount of models.. at least to me

After the first unit of "new" models it gets progressively *less* fun. I dont see how I could enjoy the 7th tactical squad since its basically the same as the last. The sergeants and stuff are interesting, and doing squad markings are too but other than that? Eh..

Gks were cool to assemble but that wore off after the 20th guy. Its almost extremely time consuming so I only assemble at lunch during work, or while watching a movie or in general multi-tasking.

I personally really enjoy the painting. At the moment I have spent more time than playing (still new). Plus I figure I only have to paint them once.

Deepeyes wrote: Plus I figure I only have to paint them once.

Thats what you think!

Kirasu wrote:
After the first unit of "new" models it gets progressively *less* fun. I dont see how I could enjoy the 7th tactical squad since its basically the same as the last. The sergeants and stuff are interesting, and doing squad markings are too but other than that? Eh..

Right. Not every model is a unique and beautiful snowflake.

Models 11-50 in a given army tend to be very generic and dull snowflakes.

I agree with much of the post, though. Painting matters, and you get the
most out of a model if you take the time to paint it.

And while I am glad that you enjoy preparing and painting your models, not everyone does. Aside from the people who don't paint their models, there are many people for whom the gaming itself, or the social interaction during the gaming, or even the competition, is the point of the hobby that they enjoy. For those people, the assembling and painting could be viewed as an additional cost to the model.

There are people like me, who like the novelty of assembling and converting models, and creating a new color scheme and paint job, but who find replicating that painting across more models much less enjoyable. The same activity (assembling and painting) adds to the value of my first models, and detracts from the value of the later ones. If I didn't want to play games with them, I could just paint more different models, but I'm trying to get enough painted to play games with painted models (so, effectively, I'm incurring an additional cost on my models in order to reap an additional value from them later).

I'm not saying that thinking about this isn't creative and interesting, but just that factoring in the time spent assembling and painting won't necessarily make one feel better about GW prices. For some, it might. For others, it might make them even more expensive!

It also doesn't help that due to the increased costs of the models and rules, most of my friends have abandoned the GW games, and I now have trouble actually getting in a game (and thus, realizing a return on my investment!).

I paint because it's a hobby I can do on a weeknight while watching TV with my family. I can't very well shoot paintballs in the house on a Tuesday, but I can paint up cadians sitting next to my kid.

malfred wrote:

Kirasu wrote:
After the first unit of "new" models it gets progressively *less* fun. I dont see how I could enjoy the 7th tactical squad since its basically the same as the last. The sergeants and stuff are interesting, and doing squad markings are too but other than that? Eh..

Right. Not every model is a unique and beautiful snowflake.

Models 11-50 in a given army tend to be very generic and dull snowflakes.

I agree with much of the post, though. Painting matters, and you get the
most out of a model if you take the time to paint it.

Remember though, that every model is like a monkey, ready to be shot into space. Space monkey! Ready to sacrifice himself for the greater good. Especially the Tau ones.

I run into the same problem and mitigate it by throwing a Tyler Durden in with all my space monkeys. Paint a character model in between each step of painting the rank and files to hold your interest.

I usually think of it like this:

It costs less than smoking cigarettes
It costs less than driving
It costs less than buying music
It costs less than being an avid gamer
It costs less than TCGs
It costs less than WOW (for me, at least. I feel like wow ends up costing more than thirty bucks a month)

...I spend about.... Thirty bucks a month on this hobby, and paint every night for a least an hour, and game for a couple hours a month.

Overall, I feel like it's a pretty cheap hobby


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kirasu wrote:Both painting and modeling are fun for a limited amount of models.. at least to me

After the first unit of "new" models it gets progressively *less* fun. I dont see how I could enjoy the 7th tactical squad since its basically the same as the last. The sergeants and stuff are interesting, and doing squad markings are too but other than that? Eh..

Gks were cool to assemble but that wore off after the 20th guy. Its almost extremely time consuming so I only assemble at lunch during work, or while watching a movie or in general multi-tasking.

I feel you. Luckily, Chaos has basically infinite freehand possibilities, so I keep myself occupied

For my ork army, I dedided to give every squad a different paint scheme.

1) It helps me tell the squads apart.

2) It is more fun to pain that way.

My army still look cohesive as there are similar colors running through the whole force (mostly bronze weaponry/armor)

If you are bored painting 50 blue marines. There is no rule that says you can not have a force made up of different types of marines.



For a While I was thinking about making a marine army. The Alpha Legion. Evey squad would be painted to look like a different first founding chapter (ei, terminators in deathwing colors, Tactical squads in Ultramarine, Imperial Fist colors. Assault Squads as Raven Guard/Blood angels ect.). Alpha legionaries are known to "disguise" themselves as loyal marines, so why would they only use one chapter.


You can find a "fuffy" reason for a multi-colored army for any faction.

Tyranid splinter fleets that were wounded, attacked each other and blended together.
Strike forces from multiple planets (works for anyone)
Last group of survivors from a campaign.
ect.

I kinda came to that conclusion while working on my Adepticon orks. Rather than think 'I have to finish X guys in a unit that look alike', I started thinking, 'how can I make every guy in this army be unique'. Sure, there are over-arching themes. One unit might have yellow shirts and black pants, one might have yellow pants and black shirts. But in order to make it fun again, every guy got a personality. Some got tattoos, some got facepaint. Some got checkerboards, some got scars, or blood splatters.

If you think, my seventh tactical squad will look like my first, then it probably will. But if you think, my seventh tactical squads are bitter because they're the typically the reserve squad, and are denied the honor of spearheading the assaults, and therefore they tend to be overachievers, trying to show that they're as good as the line squads - well, now you've got something to strive towards representing on the models. How can you make the ten men in that squad look like they're trying harder? More mud on their shoes? More dynamic poses? I dunno, you can find ways to make things more fun.

AgeOfEgos wrote:Good post, I've mused along those lines as well. It's not a straight correlation though----because there is a 'level' of fun involved as well. For example---2 hours of playing with kids is more enjoyable than 2 hours of scraping mold lines. So you would need to add that weight as well.

Then, consider their prices compared to other miniature lines.

Speak for yourself man. Some of us would rather gouge out our own eyes than deal with chocolate-powered crap machines.

Redbeard wrote:Just a random thought I had this morning on the way in to work. I was thinking about the comparative costs of various types of entertainment, and how much they cost.

Some stuff I have bought this year:

Portal 2 (Video Game). Cost me $45, I think. I played through it in probably 6-8 hours, wasn't keeping that much track. Very enjoyable. Works out to about $6/hour.

New music album (I'm too old to buy singles on iTunes). Generally costs about $12-15 for about 45 minutes. But has a high replayability factor going for it.

Tickets to see a movie (Wife and I): $20 for what is generally 2 hours. So, about $5/hour (per person).

A dog: You can get them cheaper than I did (I went to a breeder). But, even still, if you're responsible, you're probably looking at between $100-$150/month in dog upkeep costs (food, obedience classes, treats, toys, vet bills spread out, replacing the gloves the little monster ate... but I digress). But a dog gives you a lot of hours of enjoyment, right? But pets, in general, aren't cheap. Just saying.

Concert tickets: $60+ per person. Shows tend to last 3-4 hours depending on the opening acts. Call it 4, and we're looking at $15/hour.

Ticket to NFL game: $68 (more for playoffs). Games last three hours, but we get there early to watch warmups and pregame activities, so call it four. $17/hour.

Dinner out (standard): Going to typical place, like a brewpub, or an Olive Garden (or other chain restaurant), with one drink each, tends to cost about $40-$50, including tip. Considering we could cook the same stuff at home for $10-20, the 'going out' part is worth about $20 for two people, spread over an hour, or about $5/person/hour. (If you include a dessert, you get the higher prices, but extend the time a bit, you know).

Riding motorcycle: At $4/gallon of gas, a 60mph speed limit, and 45 mph, a little math tells me that this costs $5.33/hour, without factoring in the cost of the motorcycle, tune-ups, or insurance.

Well, what's my point?

Battlewagon: Using the new prices, $66 + $4 (for the wheels taken from a toy truck) + $15 (upgrade sprue) + $10 (other assorted bitz used) - call it $100. Yeah, for people complaining about the $66 tag on battlewagons (or other vehicles), I typically spend quite a bit more for the conversions I like to do.

Okay, but here's the thing.

Time to build the model: six hours, at least. I'm one of those who compulsively files all mold lines, drills gun barrels, and so on. I rebuilt the entire underside of the vehicle to accommodate wheels instead of tracks.
Time to paint the model: 20 hours, at least. I think I spent over eight hours on the yellow alone.

Even using these conservative time estimates, and using the inflated battlewagon prices, I'm still looking at under $4/hour for my entertainment dollar. That's more reasonable than dinner, a movie, a concert ticket, a sport event ticket, or a video game - and that's before considering any games that it might be used in.


I'm not trying to justify GW's pricing system, nor anyone's ability, or choice, to pay for these things. Instead, I'm trying to present an alternative view into the worth of a hobby. I enjoy painting minis. I enjoy building and converting models. I've been doing both for thirty years now. If someone were to ask me, are GW products worth the money, I'd have to say yes. To me, they are. I get a better return on my entertainment dollar painting and modelling than almost anything else I do for fun.

Compare that with spending $66 on that same battlewagon, clipping the sprue and assembling it quickly, and slapping on a bit of paint and some drybrushing. Call it three hours. Now this less expensive battlewagon is costing $22/hour, plus whatever gaming time you get out of it. $22/hour for entertainment!? That's worse than anything I listed above. I'd bristle at paying that much for so little entertainment. I'm not at all surprised that people who really aren't into modelling or painting take umbrage at the rising costs.


I rarely see hobbiests griping about price changes. Sure, none of us like them. But I still feel like I'm getting my money's worth (My entertainment dollar), even if the costs go up a little. Movies, Sport tickets, concert tickets, even gasoline - they're all up in price too. It's usually the same people who post 'I shouldn't have to paint my models if I don't want to." And they're right, they shouldn't have to, but it makes economic sense to learn to enjoy doing it

Dude,


Your reading too much into it.


IMO, painting and putting th models together are in the same line as just depressurising after a !@#$day. One thing that you can count on is that you can do a modeling project over the course of a week or so and not have anyone !@#$ing with you over your project. No deadlines, no bull!@#$, no one to hound out your painting style.

THEN to take it to a game, sit around with some mates and you talk technique, shop, and painting, as well as the added on gaming and diesigns, theory hammer, wargaming in general, and then, you have a springboard to others who are in it for the same thing, a stress release and something that you have in common.

After the fact, or even at the game, you chill over a bottle of good scotch and cigars, and talk tactics, warstories, battles, history, etc.

It isn't just GW's stuff, ether. Gaming in general is the icing on the cake. The building of your particular specialized army is the thing, not some dumbass cookie cutter stuff that everyone else has, or some clone of some other cutters army. THAT is the culmination of the projects that give you the satisfaction.

IMO, thats the thing you really can't put a price on.

Kirasu wrote: I dont see how I could enjoy the 7th tactical squad since its basically the same as the last.

So, convert them a bit. Experiment with colours for the sergeant's head. Get creative with the accessories.
I'm only onto my 2nd Tact squad, but I'm thinking of more to do with each mini I paint.

Not that I'm putting the comment down at all, as I've painted all of 20 minis in the past 30 years (all this year), so I'll probably hit the same point you have.

The flaw with this thinking is that you're comparing the "fun" of scraping mold lines and gluing plastic together with the fun of seeing a movie, going to a concert, watching an NFL game, etc.

I've sat for four hours in -5 degree (f) weather, only to see my team lose. Mold line scraping is fun comparatively...

It's all a matter of what you find fun. Would you rather scrape mold lines, or be forced to watch Elektra?

Redbeard wrote:

It's all a matter of what you find fun. Would you rather scrape mold lines, or be forced to watch Elektra?

Depends. Will the sound be on?

Well in my business as a graphic artist I charge for design time. So the hours I spend in painting will be billable back to GW, Right!?

I can work in trade. I figure the shop rate for me to work is about 65.00 per hour, so Right now GW is into me for about 20 grand. Anyone have the address for their billing and receiving?

I enjoy painting far more than playing. I still get my money out of the hobby.

Probably going to start on an Ork Deathskull/Dreadmob army when I get home from Seattle. Have a bunch of 2nd Edition and Rogue Trader era Orks in a box in storage. Also have some Trakks and buggies and stuff from Gorka Morka era. So all I really need are some Dreads, Kans and Battle Wagons I think.

OP - good comparative arguement.

However, it is not the cost of the hobby that annoys me, but the obvious price discrepancy between currencies and GW's apparent belief that they should be able to control the distribution of their products beyond their initial supply chains.

I actually started getting into miniatures to get away from spending so much on videogames and computer games.... I was thinking I was going to save money ... It didn't help any... infact... I think i've spent way more on miniatures in the past 4 years than I have on Videogames for 10 years. haha

While I enjoyed reading the OP's post and found his point of view interesting, I just don't equate painting or converting time with entertainment. For me the entertainment I get out of this hobby is playing the games and talking about the game either with game friends or here on Dakka. I try to get my armies painted decently, but painting feels much more like a chore for me. It's something I don't look forward to at all. I fully understand and respect that many people do enjoy the painting/converting side of the hobby, but it's just not that way for me.

I do agree though, that while I may spend a lot of money initially when investing in a new army, I get a really good return on that money when breaking down how much time I spend playing the game or pouring over the codex thinking of new builds and discussing them with my hobby friends.

Great topic by the way!

It's a good point, but I think it varies with me from model to model. For example, I spend a lot longer on rank and file than I do on anything else, because I enjoy having units painted to my minimum standard (which is not all that high, but it's what I'm happy with). Monsters and vehicles get basically the same treatment. So the inflated price makes them not worth the price for me, whereas say, a unit of chaos hounds or moria goblins is well worth it.

On the other hand, I buy all my X Box games pre-owned and I love stuff like oblivion and fallout, so the entertainment returns on those are far and away better than any miniature I've ever bought. I think the X Box the way I use it is one of my best purchases.