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Kanluwen wrote:

odmiller wrote:Wow. This thread again. And the same old denials. Since we're arguing some points, I'll present all the supporting evidence again for completeness' sake.

As a general recap from the White Dwarf articles:
- Blood Ravens have a very high number of Librarians
- Blood Ravens are continually thirsting for knowledge, to the point that it's come many times to the Inquisition's notice
- Blood Ravens don't know their Primarch, just their Father Librarian
- Their history has been purposefully obscured
- One squad/company disappeared into the Eye of Terror, led by their Librarian, in search of knowledge

-Many Chapters have high numbers of Librarians. Dark Angels have historically been a Chapter with a large amount of them.
-Many Chapters are "continually thirsting for knowledge". The Relictors come to mind, and they've been sanctioned by the Inquisition as well.
-Successor Chapters don't have Primarchs. Only the Founding Legions did, with many of the Successors from those Legions tracing their heritage from there.
-This is nothing special
-Again: nothing special.

Revealed in Ascension
- Blood Ravens in the far, lost past built a recruiting world outpost on top of an earlier marine outpost for some reason
- This earlier marine outpost was built during the time of the Heresy. It was built by marines in Red Armor (Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, or Word Bearers).
- These marines were able to work with the Eldar to set magic and psychic wards to lock a Necron force in Psychic Stasis (I think this eliminates Blood Angels and Word Bearers)
- These Heresy Era marines were tasked by the Eldar with guarding this galaxy wide threat, but they mysteriously left abandoned the planet and it was never recorded again in Imperial records until the Blood Ravens took it back over
- Finally, the Eldar still remember working with the Red Heresy Era marines, and mistake the Blood Ravens as being one and the same

Really? Uh, Word Bearers wore grey armor.

One specific branch of them had Red Armor.
Yeah. "Tasked by the Eldar" during the Heresy? Not happening.

Typical C.S. Goto failure at writing.

Revealed in Tempest
- The Blood Ravens can field entire squads of Librarians and even have a secret inner circle of Librarians sort of like the DA Deathwing, who hold knowledge not spread throughout the rest of the Chapter
- The Blood Ravens resent the Imperial Fists, and even have a secret tome written about the un-founding, explaining how those Founding chapters aren't necessarily all they're cracked up to be
- The Blood Ravens Father Librarian Vidya was known to Arhiman of the Thousand Sons
- Arhiman hints that the Blood Ravens Librarians' bear the same color as the T-Sons as more than a coincidence, it's based on the Rubric of Arhiman
- Ahriman is intimately familiar with the details of the founding of the Blood Ravens, but doesn't explain how
- Ahriman of the Thousand Sons, the Eldar and the Harlequins, and the Blood Ravens of old and their Father Librarian are all very linked in the ancient times

This is what we knew before the HH Novel.

I forgot to add this part.
-So what? Ahriman is intimately familiar with the Warp and various scrying and divination methods.
-ALL Librarians "bear the same color as the Thousand Sons". The Rubric of Ahriman has nothing to do with the color their armor turned.
-Again: Intimately familiar with the Warp and various forms of scrying/divination.
-The "Blood Ravens of old" could not have existed during the Horus Heresy.
Period. End of story.

A Thousand Sons
1) The Corvidae (Ahriman belongs to this Cult) are obviously named for Ravens, but additionally, its members actually have Ravens' Heads emblazoned on their shoulder pads. They are also the Guardians of the great Library.
2) The Possessed Remembrancer glimpes the future"...the lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for Salvation and Knowledge but it is denied?..."
3) Before the Wolves arrive for the seige, 4 Thousand Sons battle barges and their attendant Squadrons of strike cruisers are sent off in different directions so they cannot interfere in the Seige, with special sealed orders. We never learn the the orders, or who was on them.

1) And you know what else they were? Diviners and scryers who served as the eyes and ears of the Legion during war.
2)Quote the entire piece or don't quote it at all.

"It's too late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. Oh, Throne...no, the blood! The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge, but it is denied! A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason! It cannot happen, but it must!"

This can almost literally mean anything.
Corax has a big thing going on where he begins tampering with genetics to create 'fastgrown' Astartes. They ended up as monsters, and he referred to them at one point as his "lost sons". They were intelligent, if beastly, and rather than being kept alive they were killed after the Heresy.
3) Of course we don't. Because this lets the conspiracy theories continue.

Rebirth
1) The Thousand Sons not with the Legion on Prospero survived the flesh change. Not just the squad in the book, but the rest of the fleet they were with. It was lost in battle, not to the flesh change.
2) The Corvidae Sgt. survives to escape the planet, and is going to live to try and find out other survivors and the reasons for the Legion's destruction.
3) Sgt Arvida blames Magnus and his arrogance for whatever happened.
4) "Knowledge is Power" he says aloud, which is also Blood Ravens' motto.

1) And? There's any number of feasible explanations of this. Most of the Legion on Prospero weren't afflicted by the flesh change(which is not Ahriman's Rubric, which takes place a bit after the Heresy/during the Heresy depending on how it gets explained due to warp/realtime dilation), only those who really went ape with their powers during the siege succumbed to it.
2) Ehhh. They made it seem more like he was on one of the outbound flights.
3) Which is slightly ridiculous, but acceptable.
4) Again: this is such a commonly stated thing during the course of the Heresy that it's ridiculous to point at it as evidence. The Dark Angels Codex even has had a bit about how knowledge is power.

You can argue individual points. You can choose to disregard Goto's books. But when it's all taken into account, there really is not room for doubt.

When it's all taken into account it's a jumbled mess where people are trying to force pieces to fit their theories. There's too many discrepancies.

And that's even discounting Goto's stuff.

GW is telling us the Blood Ravens are decended from the survivors of the Thousand Sons.

'
Or that the survivors of the Thousand Sons formed the core of the Grey Knights.
Or that they became the foundation of the Deathwatch.
Or any number of potential things.

GW isn't "telling us" anything. They're laying clues down that can point in any direction they so choose.

Wow. In each case you've argued as if the point is in a vacuum. But that's not how it works unless you're a defense attorney. When you put all the points together, you actually do have a very good picture of what GW is selling. Nothing else, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, whatever, have anything like the weight of argument.

Let's assume that you can diregard every detail Goto wrote. The Black Library and GW still know that as a company they have published fiction strongly pointing toward a Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens link. Going into Horus Heresy tales then, they can choose to ignore it completely, write something to refute it, or add more and more hints and circumstantial evidence strengthening the link. What did they do? The latter.

You can say the shoulderpad icon (not a skull, a raven head), and the vision, and the motto are all coincidental, but then, none of them were necessary for the sake of the stories they were in. Unless, that is, they were foreshadowing to the Blood Raven link. They served no other purpose in either story at all.

At this point there's only so much that can be said. You can throw half the evidence out of court due to faulty authors. And then, each point, on it's own, can be argued as being ambiguous, but when you put them together there is only one answer.

odmiller wrote:
Wow. In each case you've argued as if the point is in a vacuum. But that's not how it works unless you're a defense attorney. When you put all the points together, you actually do have a very good picture of what GW is selling.

Except many of those "points" that you put up there don't work.

C.S. Goto's stuff is pretty much disregarded as 'canon' by GW/Black Library.

Nothing else, Grey Knights, Deathwatch, whatever, have anything like the weight of argument.

Really? So the Grey Knights, who utilize force weaponry, were revamped to have powers that are disturbingly similar to what was talked about from the book "A Thousand Sons", have no real 'known' history outside of during the Horus Heresy or its aftermath, or any number of connections that were published after "A Thousand Sons"...that's all coincidence?
Deathwatch, of course there's no solid tie. But there's no solid tie between Blood Ravens and Thousand Sons, or any Legion right now. That's the way THQ/GW want it to be.

Let's assume that you can disregard every detail Goto wrote.

There's no "assumption" about it. You can, and should, disregard every single detail that twit wrote.

The Black Library and GW still know that as a company they have published fiction strongly pointing toward a Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens link.

They really have not. They've published a few throw-away lines that can point towards a Thousand Sons/Blood Ravens link.

Provided you ignore every single aspect of the aftermath of the Horus Heresy.

Going into Horus Heresy tales then, they can choose to ignore it completely, write something to refute it, or add more and more hints and circumstantial evidence strengthening the link. What did they do? The latter.

Again: They didn't do anything to "strengthen" the link.

You can say the shoulderpad icon (not a skull, a raven head), and the vision, and the motto are all coincidental, but then, none of them were necessary for the sake of the stories they were in. Unless, that is, they were foreshadowing to the Blood Raven link.

The motto is coincidental. "Knowledge is Power" is a well-used phrase by the Imperium during the Great Crusade.
Why?
The whole point of the Imperium was to dispel religious falsehoods with the foundation of science. There's a reason the Emperor refused to be considered a god. There's a reason why he tried to encourage science, not mysticism.

They served no other purpose in either story at all.

"Knowledge is Power" has been in so many books that it's a non-issue.
The raven's head icon is, again, nothing like the Blood Raven's insignia. They are not divided into 'Cults' nor are Companies done in such a way that they'd reflect any ties to the Thousand Sons that could be extrapolated upon.

So that leaves us with that vision. Which took place before the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre, whereupon the Raven Guard suffered horrendous casualties and which led to Corax dabbling into something that he shouldn't have and creating abominations.

At this point there's only so much that can be said. You can throw half the evidence out of court due to faulty authors. And then, each point, on it's own, can be argued as being ambiguous, but when you put them together there is only one answer.

And that answer is that there is no answer.

Godamnit GW...
Who would be interested in Blood Ravens if it did turn out that Magnus was their primarch?
To be honest nothing much seems to be coming from having him as their primarch so it doesn't seem to amtter all that much.

You could write some nice campaign material for them but not much otherwise...

mmm that would be interesting, but I doubt they will ever allow a thing like this. Blood Ravens are not a product of Games Workshop, it's from THQ/Relic, so they will never allow a chapter made by others, be a direct descendant of a traitor legion.

I'd love it, it would be good fluff... but sincerely I prefere that the survivors of the traitor legions founded the Deathwatch or the Grey Knights (first one is better IMHO, it would have more sense). Following the fluff known in Deathwatch RPG this option would be logic since any Marine can join the ranks as Black Shield, no background is needed. You just need to be pure in mind and body.

purplefood wrote:Godamnit GW...
Who would be interested in Blood Ravens if it did turn out that Magnus was their primarch?

The Space Wolves

Imperator97 wrote:It would make sense i guess
Although, when THQ made the blood ravens, i don't think they looked into the fluff that far.
Plus, aren't all thousand sons psykers?
The blood ravens may have several of them, but not every brother.

Why does everyone keep saying this stuff? GW did an OFFICIAL Index Astartes article on the Blood Ravens. They are, have been and always will be GW IP.

odmiller wrote:Wow. This thread again. And the same old denials. Since we're arguing some points, I'll present all the supporting evidence again for completeness' sake.

As a general recap from the White Dwarf articles:
- Blood Ravens have a very high number of Librarians
- Blood Ravens are continually thirsting for knowledge, to the point that it's come many times to the Inquisition's notice
- Blood Ravens don't know their Primarch, just their Father Librarian
- Their history has been purposefully obscured
- One squad/company disappeared into the Eye of Terror, led by their Librarian, in search of knowledge

Revealed in Ascension
- Blood Ravens in the far, lost past built a recruiting world outpost on top of an earlier marine outpost for some reason
- This earlier marine outpost was built during the time of the Heresy. It was built by marines in Red Armor (Thousand Sons, Blood Angels, or Word Bearers).
- These marines were able to work with the Eldar to set magic and psychic wards to lock a Necron force in Psychic Stasis (I think this eliminates Blood Angels and Word Bearers)
- These Heresy Era marines were tasked by the Eldar with guarding this galaxy wide threat, but they mysteriously left abandoned the planet and it was never recorded again in Imperial records until the Blood Ravens took it back over
- Finally, the Eldar still remember working with the Red Heresy Era marines, and mistake the Blood Ravens as being one and the same

Revealed in Tempest
- The Blood Ravens can field entire squads of Librarians and even have a secret inner circle of Librarians sort of like the DA Deathwing, who hold knowledge not spread throughout the rest of the Chapter
- The Blood Ravens resent the Imperial Fists, and even have a secret tome written about the un-founding, explaining how those Founding chapters aren't necessarily all they're cracked up to be
- The Blood Ravens Father Librarian Vidya was known to Arhiman of the Thousand Sons
- Arhiman hints that the Blood Ravens Librarians' bear the same color as the T-Sons as more than a coincidence, it's based on the Rubric of Arhiman
- Ahriman is intimately familiar with the details of the founding of the Blood Ravens, but doesn't explain how
- Ahriman of the Thousand Sons, the Eldar and the Harlequins, and the Blood Ravens of old and their Father Librarian are all very linked in the ancient times

This is what we knew before the HH Novel.

A Thousand Sons
1) The Corvidae (Ahriman belongs to this Cult) are obviously named for Ravens, but additionally, its members actually have Ravens' Heads emblazoned on their shoulder pads. They are also the Guardians of the great Library.
2) The Possessed Remembrancer glimpes the future"...the lost sons and a Raven of Blood. They cry out for Salvation and Knowledge but it is denied?..."
3) Before the Wolves arrive for the seige, 4 Thousand Sons battle barges and their attendant Squadrons of strike cruisers are sent off in different directions so they cannot interfere in the Seige, with special sealed orders. We never learn the the orders, or who was on them.

Rebirth
1) The Thousand Sons not with the Legion on Prospero survived the flesh change. Not just the squad in the book, but the rest of the fleet they were with. It was lost in battle, not to the flesh change.
2) The Corvidae Sgt. survives to escape the planet, and is going to live to try and find out other survivors and the reasons for the Legion's destruction.
3) Sgt Arvida blames Magnus and his arrogance for whatever happened.
4) "Knowledge is Power" he says aloud, which is also Blood Ravens' motto.

You can argue individual points. You can choose to disregard Goto's books. But when it's all taken into account, there really is not room for doubt. GW is telling us the Blood Ravens are decended from the survivors of the Thousand Sons.

Sums it up the best. GW will probably only keep hinting and probably, in their normal GW way, never flat out say, yes or no to this mystery. It's up to you to use your own logic. My critical thinking, reasoning skills and logic believes the rumor to be true. Kanluwen will continue arguing until his fingers fall off from furious typing trying to keep up with all the posts. Why does he do this? His logic and reasoning doesn't think it's possible. Who's right? Make your own decisions.

There were only 8 Grey Knights when the siege of terra happened so the survivng loyalist 1k sons could easily of had some part in that seeing both them and the GK are all on some level psychic even if they are latent

Because there seems to be some question as to whether the Blood Ravens are even an official chapter, here's their history:

2004
SM Codex appearance
How to Paint Space Marines appearance
Chapter Approved article in White Dwarf
Dawn of War novel - Goto

2005
Ascension novel - Goto

2006
Tempest novel - Goto

2008
SM Codex appearance
Blood Ravens omnibus - reprints the 3 novels

2009
Dawn of War 2 novel - Roberson

So, with 4 novels, two SM codex appearances, an appearance in How to Paint Space Marines, and a Chapter Approved article, I think we can accept they are an official chapter. In researching, I didn't see the memo or post mentioning to disregard everything Goto wrote completely, but I'll believe Kanluwen on that.

After all, it could be that when GW created the new Chapter in 2004, they had no idea what the mysterious background would be. And then that they let Mr. Goto take them in a background direction they didn't want, over the course of three novels and 3 years, never once asking him to cut it out. Then a couple of years later, in 2009, that they decided to reprint them all under the name Blood Ravens omnibus, even though they presented a Thousand Sons link GW didn't want to present.

It could be that they then mistakenly commissioned a new author, Chris Roberson, to write another Dawn of War book, and to continue to use the same background hooks Goto had written of.

All those things are possible, and if GW wanted to invalidate the last 5 years of their recent publishing history in regards to the Blood Ravens, then I guess they could. After all, what better way to do it than make sure that the Horus Heresy fiction featuring the Thousand Sons went in a different direction.

Hmmm.

Well, I guess all those things could happen.

odmiller wrote:Because there seems to be some question as to whether the Blood Ravens are even an official chapter, here's their history:

2004
SM Codex appearance
How to Paint Space Marines appearance
Chapter Approved article in White Dwarf
Dawn of War novel - Goto

2005
Ascension novel - Goto

2006
Tempest novel - Goto

2008
SM Codex appearance
Blood Ravens omnibus - reprints the 3 novels

2009
Dawn of War 2 novel - Roberson

So, with 4 novels, two SM codex appearances, an appearance in How to Paint Space Marines, and a Chapter Approved article, I think we can accept they are an official chapter.

Nobody who actually has a clue says that they're not an "official" Chapter.

What they're saying is that GW does not have a hand in the creation of the background of the Chapter. They are, for all intents and purposes, Relic's "Chapter".

In researching, I didn't see the memo or post mentioning to disregard everything Goto wrote completely, but I'll believe Kanluwen on that.

Really? The fact that C.S. Goto's novels aren't in print, same with Chris Roberson's "Dawn of War 2" novel doesn't tell you something?

Interesting.

After all, it could be that when GW created the new Chapter in 2004, they had no idea what the mysterious background would be. And then that they let Mr. Goto take them in a background direction they didn't want, over the course of three novels and 3 years, never once asking him to cut it out. Then a couple of years later, in 2009, that they decided to reprint them all under the name Blood Ravens omnibus, even though they presented a Thousand Sons link GW didn't want to present.

They had no control over Goto. He was a freelancer, with an independent editor and his novels were written during a shake-up period. The books did well(so did Halo's "The Flood" novel which is the 'novelization' of Halo: Combat Evolved, which is disregarded by Bungie as canon and regarded by most fans as a crappy book, interestingly enough) so they left him alone for the most part.
Once he started writing the Deathwatch crap and he started inserting pedophile Eldar, they pretty much canceled his contract.

P.S. The "Blood Ravens Omnibus" was published in March 2008.
Says so right on the Black Library website, next to "OUT OF STOCK"--like all of Goto's novels by themselves. The only way to get his novels (of which only "Salvation" for Necromunda and the Deathwatch novels are available) are through Print on Demand. He has a few short stories that are passable and are in some of the more recent anthologies, but they've been sitting on those for years and they were rewritten by the anthology editors by all accounts.

It could be that they then mistakenly commissioned a new author, Chris Roberson, to write another Dawn of War book, and to continue to use the same background hooks Goto had written of.

Which is now out of stock with no plans to reprint it.

Hmmm.

All those things are possible, and if GW wanted to invalidate the last 5 years of their recent publishing history in regards to the Blood Ravens, then I guess they could. After all, what better way to do it than make sure that the Horus Heresy fiction featuring the Thousand Sons went in a different direction.

And what better way to make people continue thinking they know the "true story" than to continue a ridiculous conspiracy theory with vague innuendo and drop hints like John Edwards(of 'Crossing Over' fame, not the politician) to a grieving family.

Well, I guess all those things could happen.

Take a look at the publishing catalog and you'll see that they have happened.

Hell most of the GUants GHosts booksa re out of print, that proves nothing, the last ones still in print are probally "Blood Pact" and "Only in Death"

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Hell most of the Gaunt's Ghosts books are out of print, that proves nothing, the last ones still in print are probably "Blood Pact" and "Only in Death"

Incorrect. The Gaunt's Ghosts books are still in print, just not by themselves. You'll still find them on shelves by themselves, but they are not 'new printings' or 'in print' anymore. "Only in Death", by the by, is not in print by itself. It hasn't been for awhile as it was the final book in "The Lost" cycle and is in that omnibus.

"The Founding", "The Saint", and "The Lost" omnibuses are still actively being printed. They're still for sale, and there are no plans to stop producing them.

The omnibus for Blood Ravens, however, was in print for a year and then listed as "Out of Print". The same with DOW2.

Does this mean you won't see copies on shelves? No. It means that Black Library is not publishing any more copies, and that any copies you find out there can feasibly be considered 'collector's items'.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Hell most of the GUants GHosts booksa re out of print, that proves nothing, the last ones still in print are probally "Blood Pact" and "Only in Death"

Agreed. But Kanluwen as raised some great new arguments I hadn't thought of. I'll try to summarize them and then rebutt them, if I can. Also, I admit I made a mistake placing the omnibus in 2009, I grabbed the date from the Dawn of War 2 book by accident.

1) Relic controls the background of the chapter, not GW.

2) Goto was a freelancer who they had no control over. They let him go because his books sold, but then they had too much and cancelled his contract.

3) Both Goto's books and Roberson's book are print on demand only!

4) GW has decided to perpetuate a "ridiculous" conspiracy with its Horus Heresy books!

OK, some tough ones there. Here we go.

1) The 2004 Blood Ravens codex astartes article was written by ..... Graham McNeil. I guess it's possible that the 4 pages of detail he provided were all dictated by Relic. Or, that GW had no plan other than creating the mysterious origin, large numbers of extra powerful librarians, search for hidden knowledge and Knowledge is power battle cry. However, nothing I have ever read about the game, or GW and Relic's relationship suggests to me that they would let another company run off with their IP and create a story GW does not approve of.

2) C.S. Goto. Well, Goto certainly pumped out a lot of novels, really fast. His use of multi lasers was annoying, as was his slaaneshi Eldar story. However, suggesting that GW was forced to keep buying Dawn of War novels that suggested something they disagreed with, and then to reprint them a couple of years later stretches the bounds of credibility in a contractor/employer relationship. Whether or not that had editorial control as the books were being written, they still bought them, one after the other - something they just would not have done if they were running a backstory GW didn't want to sell. One book yes. Two books, maybe, three books, no. And again, they then reprinted them as the Blood Ravens omnibus 2 years after Goto's last book was released.

And again, why renew the same storyine with another author 3 years after Goto was let go, especially if it was because they didn't agree with the backstory?

3) On Demand only. Uh, oh. This is a tough one. No, not really.

A huge swathe of the Black Library books are out of stock. Blood Angels books, Space Wolves books, Space Marine Anthologies, hell, Angels of Darkness is out of stock. Does that mean GW has made a decision that they are all no longer valid? No. It means they can't afford to reprint them and have them sit in inventory. It means they will be available to their customers through print on demand.

4) My favorite! GW knows that readers have read the links about the 1000 Sons and the Blood Ravens, secretly believes it's ridiculous, but decides to perpetuate it because...because...
Because they can! Because that's what they want the people to think! A secret conspiracy within GW to trick readers into thinking there's a link, when there's not. Mwah hah ha! Deliciously nefarious. Deliciously evil. Deliciously....stupid. Come on, really?

Seriously? Relic can't dictate anything. GW owns the IP.

Xelkireth wrote:Seriously? Relic can't dictate anything. GW owns the IP.

Exactly.

odmiller wrote:

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:Hell most of the GUants GHosts booksa re out of print, that proves nothing, the last ones still in print are probally "Blood Pact" and "Only in Death"

Agreed. But Kanluwen as raised some great new arguments I hadn't thought of. I'll try to summarize them and then rebutt them, if I can. Also, I admit I made a mistake placing the omnibus in 2009, I grabbed the date from the Dawn of War 2 book by accident.

1) Relic controls the background of the chapter, not GW.

They do, actually.

2) Goto was a freelancer who they had no control over. They let him go because his books sold, but then they had too much and cancelled his contract.

Which was the biggest problem. He was contracted to do a trilogy. He 'knew a guy' in management and got a good deal that way. If it had been any other author, he would have been canned right off the bat.

3) Both Goto's books and Roberson's book are print on demand only!

Not true. Roberson actually has a book in print called "Sons of Dorn". Goto's novels, however, are entirely print on demand.
If you look at the Black Library author page, they make a bare mention of him and tell you to visit his website.

Also: the point you seemingly missed was that none of the Dawn of War books are currently in print.
Try to keep up if you want to refute my arguments.

4) GW has decided to perpetuate a "ridiculous" conspiracy with its Horus Heresy books!

OK, some tough ones there. Here we go.

Do you really find it so difficult to believe that GW doesn't "perpetuate ridiculous conspiracies"?

I point you to the Lost Legions.
/thread

1) The 2004 Blood Ravens codex astartes article was written by ..... Graham McNeil. I guess it's possible that the 4 pages of detail he provided were all dictated by Relic. Or, that GW had no plan other than creating the mysterious origin, large numbers of extra powerful librarians, search for hidden knowledge and Knowledge is power battle cry. However, nothing I have ever read about the game, or GW and Relic's relationship suggests to me that they would let another company run off with their IP and create a story GW does not approve of.

Then I think you need to read some more, such as the idea of where the Blood Ravens came from.
The Blood Ravens did not exist prior to Dawn of War. They were created solely to allow Relic somewhere to play without potentially ruining canon. What was unanticipated was just how well-received the Blood Ravens were, and they promptly got into the next pair of Marine codices.

2) C.S. Goto. Well, Goto certainly pumped out a lot of novels, really fast. His use of multi lasers was annoying, as was his slaaneshi Eldar story. However, suggesting that GW was forced to keep buying Dawn of War novels that suggested something they disagreed with, and then to reprint them a couple of years later stretches the bounds of credibility in a contractor/employer relationship. Whether or not that had editorial control as the books were being written, they still bought them, one after the other - something they just would not have done if they were running a backstory GW didn't want to sell. One book yes. Two books, maybe, three books, no. And again, they then reprinted them as the Blood Ravens omnibus 2 years after Goto's last book was released.

They reprinted them as the Blood Ravens omnibus shortly before Dawn of War 2(the game and the book both) were released.

That's just good business sense doing tie-ins. It would have been stupid of them to not have done that, since they still retained the rights to Goto's books at that point.

And again, why renew the same storyline with another author 3 years after Goto was let go, especially if it was because they didn't agree with the backstory?

Nothing in Dawn of War 2 actually pointed towards the Thousand Sons being the primogenitors of the Blood Ravens. There's a throwaway line in Chaos Rising and Retribution that people are citing as evidence of the Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus being the primogenitors now.

3) On Demand only. Uh, oh. This is a tough one. No, not really.

A huge swathe of the Black Library books are out of stock. Blood Angels books, Space Wolves books, Space Marine Anthologies, hell, Angels of Darkness is out of stock. Does that mean GW has made a decision that they are all no longer valid? No. It means they can't afford to reprint them and have them sit in inventory. It means they will be available to their customers through print on demand.

Angels of Darkness is actually considered 'not really canon' by Gav Thorpe, the guy who wrote it. It was never really considered canon even when it was in print. The whole point of it was to show the 'other side of the story' and the potential lies spread by the Fallen. It's a perfect example of the "All You've Been Told Is Lies" aspect of the Imperium, and is what Thorpe used to quote when saying that.

The Blood Angels books, Ultramarines, and Space Wolves books are also available in their omnibus formats. They've also, interestingly enough, been made available in single book formats as ebooks.
For the omnibuses though, they're still 'in print'.
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Space-Marines/Blood-Angels-The-Omnibus.html
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Space-Marines/Space-Wolf-The-First-Omnibus.html
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Space-Marines/Space-Wolf-The-Second-Omnibus.html
http://www.blacklibrary.com/Warhammer-40000/Space-Marines/Ultramarines-Omnibus-The.html
So again, you're wrong.

4) My favorite! GW knows that readers have read the links about the 1000 Sons and the Blood Ravens, secretly believes it's ridiculous, but decides to perpetuate it because...because...
Because they can! Because that's what they want the people to think! A secret conspiracy within GW to trick readers into thinking there's a link, when there's not. Mwah hah ha! Deliciously nefarious. Deliciously evil. Deliciously....stupid. Come on, really?

"The Lost Legions".

And really, there has yet to actually be any concrete evidence. Really. There has yet to be any of it. Most of what you've pointed towards is Ahriman being a douche(not unheard of), C.S. Goto completely screwing up facts ("Your Librarians dress like Thousand Sons!". Blood Ravens Librarians dress the same as all Codex Chapters' Librarians do. So Librarians are Thousand Sons?), or lines purposely written to be as maddeningly vague as possible to make people think "Ohho, I've solved it!".

Lol.

I know exactly how the chapter came about. But that doesn't mean GW didn't come out with a basic synopsis that would let the games and authors play with revealing tidbits over time. In fact, this is much more likely than saying, "go wild, everything's on the table. We don't care."

Goto was hired to write a trilogy, and then fired as soon as possible? Well, except for the pesky fact that he wrote 7 books for the BL. Don't let that stop your narative.

The Dawn of War books are out of stock! Oh no! And Angels of Darkenss, since it's also out of stock, isn't canon either, despite the fact that the subsequent novels and short stories up to this years are still mentioning characters from it. Guess, what, it's canon now. But it's still out of stock.

Dawn of War 2, the book, actually does add more fuel to the fire, but I'll stop from examining it, just like I'll refrain from responding to your closing comments about what I pointed out in the Blood Ravens novels, because when I do, you'll just fall back to the, "well it doesn't count anyway" card.

The lost legions? Same thing. Really.

OK, you win. I'm going to bow out now.

Evidently you don't know how the Chapter came about, because if you did you'd know that when they were first being introduced there was nothing about Librarians in there. The Librarian thing didn't come about until after they were trying to salvage the wreck of Goto's crap.

He wrote 7 books, all of which were purile garbage. Don't believe me? Try reading the Deathwatch books that he wrote(Warrior Coven and Warrior Brood. Warrior Coven has an Eldar falling in love with a Space Marine. No. Seriously. It does.).
It was pretty obvious that he knew he was on his way out after the butchering he gave canon via DOW and the only thing keeping him safe was that they had a 'set' print run for the DOW books and several novels independent of the DOW ones.
I should also add that his first book was the Necromunda one and his short stories prior to that point in time were not actually 'bad'. Which is kinda why, in conjunction with his connections to a manager at the time, he was given the opportunity to write the DOW novels.

And again: every 'fact' that Ahriman gave is simply the stupidest, most inane thing that could feasibly be given. And that's not even counting the simple thing that is always forgotten in that Ahriman is a liar and goes out of his way to mock the Imperium at every chance. The guy captured an Inquisitor so he could get at the Black Library and worry the Eldar into acting during the 13th Black Crusade.
But again:
Librarians and Thousand Sons share the same color. That means nothing. The color of the Librarium was set down during the Great Crusade.
Ahriman was 'around to see the Blood Ravens being founded'--it doesn't mean he was actually there.
I was around to see the Berlin Wall fall, does it mean that I toppled it?

Kanluwen wrote:Evidently you don't know how the Chapter came about, because if you did you'd know that when they were first being introduced there was nothing about Librarians in there. The Librarian thing didn't come about until after they were trying to salvage the wreck of Goto's crap.

He wrote 7 books, all of which were purile garbage. Don't believe me? Try reading the Deathwatch books that he wrote(Warrior Coven and Warrior Brood. Warrior Coven has an Eldar falling in love with a Space Marine. No. Seriously. It does.).
It was pretty obvious that he knew he was on his way out after the butchering he gave canon via DOW and the only thing keeping him safe was that they had a 'set' print run for the DOW books and several novels independent of the DOW ones.
I should also add that his first book was the Necromunda one and his short stories prior to that point in time were not actually 'bad'. Which is kinda why, in conjunction with his connections to a manager at the time, he was given the opportunity to write the DOW novels.

And again: every 'fact' that Ahriman gave is simply the stupidest, most inane thing that could feasibly be given. And that's not even counting the simple thing that is always forgotten in that Ahriman is a liar and goes out of his way to mock the Imperium at every chance. The guy captured an Inquisitor so he could get at the Black Library and worry the Eldar into acting during the 13th Black Crusade.
But again:
Librarians and Thousand Sons share the same color. That means nothing. The color of the Librarium was set down during the Great Crusade.
Ahriman was 'around to see the Blood Ravens being founded'--it doesn't mean he was actually there.
I was around to see the Berlin Wall fall, does it mean that I toppled it?

Actually, maybe you should head on back and do a little reading. The Chapter Approved in 2004, written my Graham McNeil, makes repeated note of the unusual high number of librarians and of their unusual level of power. It even mentions a rumored tower where those unable to control their power are sent and studied. That's GW's chapter approved article in 2004. Well before "Goto's crap" about Librarians.

I'm not going to touch the armor color, as there are about 10 other points in the Dawn of War series that you choose to ignore. Discuss all, or discuss none IMHO, no picking and choosing the ones you like. You keep coming back to the quote about the armor color but skip everything else.

Then discuss all the points that I brought up.

The quote that everyone LOVES to point to from "A Thousand Sons" is from a prophecy given shortly before the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre.

What happens there? The Raven Guard are almost completely annihilated.
What happens afterwards? Corax goes and begins dabbling in the forbidden using texts, supposedly provided to him by the Alpha Legion, to try to recreate the geneseed that was lost to him on Istvaan. The result is to create monsters which he personally puts down before leaving Deliverance without a word.
There was even a piece at one point in older fluff about how his 'sons cried out for answers as he left'.

By the by:
Dawn of War released in 2004. Ascension in 2005, Tempest in 2006. Dawn of War released alongside of the game in November 2004. Graham McNeill's Chapter Approved article was supposedly done in a vacuum, as it was before they really started having the collaboration in effect that they do now with 'Big Ticket' fiction.

The "rumored tower" thing also has no real bearing on the Thousand Sons link, other than a tenuous one to Tzeentch because of the "Silver Spire" war engine.

So again I'm saying it again:
There is no solid evidence. There is speculation. Some of it might be founded, but most of it is rubbish--and GW encourages it.
They want the Blood Ravens' history, like the Lost Legions, to be shrouded in half-lies and suppositions. What's the simplest way to do this?
Not answer anything definitively. Throw out some vague quotations or prophecies like a fortune teller at a carnival or a fortune cookie from Panda Inn.

The prophecy was not just befroe the dropsite massacre, no reports of heresy had been voioved and Hporus had just fallen

Kanluwen wrote:Then discuss all the points that I brought up.

The quote that everyone LOVES to point to from "A Thousand Sons" is from a prophecy given shortly before the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre.

What happens there? The Raven Guard are almost completely annihilated.
What happens afterwards? Corax goes and begins dabbling in the forbidden using texts, supposedly provided to him by the Alpha Legion, to try to recreate the geneseed that was lost to him on Istvaan. The result is to create monsters which he personally puts down before leaving Deliverance without a word.
There was even a piece at one point in older fluff about how his 'sons cried out for answers as he left'.

By the by:
Dawn of War released in 2004. Ascension in 2005, Tempest in 2006. Dawn of War released alongside of the game in November 2004. Graham McNeill's Chapter Approved article was supposedly done in a vacuum, as it was before they really started having the collaboration in effect that they do now with 'Big Ticket' fiction.

The "rumored tower" thing also has no real bearing on the Thousand Sons link, other than a tenuous one to Tzeentch because of the "Silver Spire" war engine.

So again I'm saying it again:
There is no solid evidence. There is speculation. Some of it might be founded, but most of it is rubbish--and GW encourages it.
They want the Blood Ravens' history, like the Lost Legions, to be shrouded in half-lies and suppositions. What's the simplest way to do this?
Not answer anything definitively. Throw out some vague quotations or prophecies like a fortune teller at a carnival or a fortune cookie from Panda Inn.

So...I agree on the timeline. Graham McNeill wrote the Chapter Approved in 2004 without Relic or Goto having real input on it. The large number of Librarians, extra psychic power, are GW inventions from the start. That seems to help my point though.

As for the tower, unless, as is mentioned in one of your other posts, the flesh change only occurs with those who push their power too far? Would that explain the need for a tower where Librarians who overdid it, or became too powerful were sent?

As for the prophecy quote, it can be read as you suggest. Or, could just as easily (and in my opinion, more sensibly since it's a Thousand Sons book with no other mention of the Ravenguard) be a prophecy about the future of the Thousand sons (the Ravens of Blood, lost sons searching for knowledge). Add in the T Sons marines sent away by Magnus who escape the dust curse. Add the raven logo on the corvidae, which is by coonicidence the exact shoulder pad described on the Sgt in "Rebirth" just after he vows to search for the truth and as he says, "Knowledge is Power." (I am aware that's a common saying in 40k, but it's also the battlecry of the Blood Ravens.)

At this point the argument is going in circles. These could very well be red herrings, until GW says one way or the other. I can't argue that that's not a potentiality, however small (IMHO). However, at the very least, GW is going a long, long way to lay out circumstantial evidence. And the most damning thing to me, is that although pieces of the evidence can be read different ways, there is only one way they make a picture. Everything else is just a jumble of unrelated threads.

Hlaine Larkin mk2 wrote:The prophecy was not just before the dropsite massacre, no reports of heresy had been voiced and Horus had just fallen

Do you realize that is exactly what I had said in my reasoning about the prophecy?

The prophecy was done before the Dropsite Massacre. Prospero fell in the opening days of the Heresy.

Christ Kan, you don't piss about do you?

odmiller wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Then discuss all the points that I brought up.

The quote that everyone LOVES to point to from "A Thousand Sons" is from a prophecy given shortly before the Istvaan Dropsite Massacre.

What happens there? The Raven Guard are almost completely annihilated.
What happens afterwards? Corax goes and begins dabbling in the forbidden using texts, supposedly provided to him by the Alpha Legion, to try to recreate the geneseed that was lost to him on Istvaan. The result is to create monsters which he personally puts down before leaving Deliverance without a word.
There was even a piece at one point in older fluff about how his 'sons cried out for answers as he left'.

By the by:
Dawn of War released in 2004. Ascension in 2005, Tempest in 2006. Dawn of War released alongside of the game in November 2004. Graham McNeill's Chapter Approved article was supposedly done in a vacuum, as it was before they really started having the collaboration in effect that they do now with 'Big Ticket' fiction.

The "rumored tower" thing also has no real bearing on the Thousand Sons link, other than a tenuous one to Tzeentch because of the "Silver Spire" war engine.

So again I'm saying it again:
There is no solid evidence. There is speculation. Some of it might be founded, but most of it is rubbish--and GW encourages it.
They want the Blood Ravens' history, like the Lost Legions, to be shrouded in half-lies and suppositions. What's the simplest way to do this?
Not answer anything definitively. Throw out some vague quotations or prophecies like a fortune teller at a carnival or a fortune cookie from Panda Inn.

So...I agree on the timeline. Graham McNeill wrote the Chapter Approved in 2004 without Relic or Goto having real input on it. The large number of Librarians, extra psychic power, are GW inventions from the start. That seems to help my point though.

"Large number of Librarians" doesn't actually help or not help your point. It just is there.

The fact that the Thousand Sons had a large number of psykers was because of the gene-seed, while the Blood Ravens recruited actively from worlds with large amounts of psychic candidates.

As for the tower, unless, as is mentioned in one of your other posts, the flesh change only occurs with those who push their power too far? Would that explain the need for a tower where Librarians who overdid it, or became too powerful were sent?

The flesh change occurred in those who used their powers too frequently or for extended periods of time. And it wasn't like it was not a noticeable change or anything.

As for the prophecy quote, it can be read as you suggest. Or, could just as easily (and in my opinion, more sensibly since it's a Thousand Sons book with no other mention of the Raven Guard) be a prophecy about the future of the Thousand sons (the Ravens of Blood, lost sons searching for knowledge).

Which is why I really say it's best to disregard the prophecy and any tidbits that simply put "Raven" and "Blood" in the same sentence.
It just feels too obvious of an explanation for it to be "AYUP! Blood Ravens are from the Thousand Sons!".

Add in the T Sons marines sent away by Magnus who escape the dust curse.

We don't know that part...yet. We do not know that all of the Thousand Sons who were sent away 'escape the Rubric of Ahriman', and the only reason that this particular Sergeant may have is that he had a better grasp on his psychic powers than the rank and file who turned to dust did.

Add the raven logo on the corvidae, which is by conicidence the exact shoulder pad described on the Sgt in "Rebirth" just after he vows to search for the truth and as he says, "Knowledge is Power." (I am aware that's a common saying in 40k, but it's also the battlecry of the Blood Ravens.)

And it's still not the correct "logo". The Blood Ravens have a full raven, with outstretched wings. The Corvidae had both the Legion insignia and the Cult insignia. The quote is a common saying during the Great Crusade, not so much common during the post-Heresy Imperium when religion seems to take hold.

At this point the argument is going in circles. These could very well be red herrings, until GW says one way or the other. I can't argue that that's not a potentiality, however small (IMHO). However, at the very least, GW is going a long, long way to lay out circumstantial evidence. And the most damning thing to me, is that although pieces of the evidence can be read different ways, there is only one way they make a picture. Everything else is just a jumble of unrelated threads.

Except the only way right now to make a picture ignores a bunch of huge problems.
1) There's no way the Blood Ravens can be descended from the Thousand Sons geneseed, because the Thousand Sons geneseed is under lock and constant guard by the Custodes. The only person who can open the lock is the Emperor, and he isn't waking up anytime soon.
2) The Flesh Change is part of the tainted Thousand Sons geneseed, and if the Blood Ravens were made utilizing it--then they would be manifesting it ala the Cursed Foundings.
3) They simply cannot be, as an entire Chapter, descended from the Thousand Sons because they exhibit none of the traits(psyker potential and the Flesh Change being the biggest ones) and the geneseed is locked away under guard and there were no foundings aside from, it looks like at least, the Grey Knights during the Heresy.

Now, what GW may be building towards(and far more likely in my book) is that the 'Loyalist' Thousand Sons may have been used to rebuild the Librarium and what's more the Grey Knights after the Heresy.


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purplefood wrote:Christ Kan, you don't piss about do you?

I take my conspiracy theories seriously.

Forget this post I can't make the URL work.

[quote=KanluwenSo...I agree on the timeline. Graham McNeill wrote the Chapter Approved in 2004 without Relic or Goto having real input on it. The large number of Librarians, extra psychic power, are GW inventions from the start. That seems to help my point though.

Honestly Kan what do you have against the Blood Raven's founding? lol.

As for your comment, I was unaware the Grey Knights could shoot fire, create physic shielding, tell the future, and destroy the biology of enemies. The large range of 1K son's psychic powers does not make any sense if they were all inducted into the Grey Knights. It could be possible that like the Deathwatch, members who possess serious psychic talent who are not already librarians are drafted in to the Grey Knights, and put under a new training regiment.

Secondly, this is nothing like the two unknown chapters that were erased. We, essentially, already know what happened to them from reading the HH book on the Word Bearers and Prospero Burns, as they seem to have become dangerous by possibly being over religious, and were broken and redistributed possibly into the Ultramarines, hence why they are such a large legion.

But other than that, it seems that the information does point toward the Blood Ravens. If they were the Raven Guard, they would possess many traits of that chapter - they do not utilize stealth, jump infantry and the like in the same manner. Blood Angels does not work because they are not affected by the Black Rage. For a Chapter to survive, it cannot be possible for all of them to be psykers. It would be thought that out of necessity, regular line troopers would be created, while still looking for psykers.

I think that in the fluff, it said that the Blood Ravens suffered a severe defeat against an enemy, where the great father librarian was also killed. Could, like I just said, it not be possible that they were all made up of psykers, but after suffering such severe losses, there was a need to draft regular marines unless they would have been disbanded.

Edit: Also, could it not be possible that the Fated 5th company was lured into the warp by the 1k Son's and Ahriman, by being told they could have unlocked the answers to their founding? If sheltered by the 1k Sons still in the warp, it would explain why they came back untainted and unharmed, except for the librarian who brought them to the warp.

elysiandroptrooper108 wrote:Honestly Kan what do you have against the Blood Raven's founding? lol.

I have nothing against them being founded. What I do have issue with is that several blatantly 'throwaway' lines are cited as inconvertible evidence of the founding being one source or another. They've purposely laid out clues that point in several different directions.

As for your comment, I was unaware the Grey Knights could shoot fire, create physic shielding, tell the future, and destroy the biology of enemies. The large range of 1K son's psychic powers does not make any sense if they were all inducted into the Grey Knights. It could be possible that like the Deathwatch, members who possess serious psychic talent who are not already librarians are drafted in to the Grey Knights, and put under a new training regiment.

None of the abilities exhibited by the Thousand Sons were unique. Projecting fire, kinetic shields, telling the future(look up the Emperor's tarot) or 'destroying the biology of their enemies' are nothing unique.
However: I point you to the Purifiers and the 'wave of psychic fire' they can project before themselves as they advance.
For kinetic shields: the 'Sanctuary' power.

Again though: the Grey Knights aren't looking like they were something that was 'created' from random groups of loyalists. Could loyalist Thousand Sons have been used as training instructors? Entirely possible. The warrior-mystics of the Thousand Sons, Dark Angels, et al would have been fantastic trainers.

Secondly, this is nothing like the two unknown chapters that were erased. We, essentially, already know what happened to them from reading the HH book on the Word Bearers and Prospero Burns, as they seem to have become dangerous by possibly being over religious, and were broken and redistributed possibly into the Ultramarines, hence why they are such a large legion.

Again: you're taking two throwaway lines that are rumors even among the Astartes at that time as irrefutable proof. Remember that Argel Tal tells one of his men to zip it after he makes a snide remark about the Ultramarines only being so large because they had absorbed the two 'Lost Legions'.

It's also worth noting that 'One was lost through tragedy, the other purged by necessity'. That could just simply mean they destroyed each other.

But other than that, it seems that the information does point toward the Blood Ravens. If they were the Raven Guard, they would possess many traits of that chapter - they do not utilize stealth, jump infantry and the like in the same manner. Blood Angels does not work because they are not affected by the Black Rage.

The Raven Guard "utilizing stealth or jump infantry(common misconception. They utilize precision assaults which usually include jump infantry for hit and run strikes and precision planning)" are not traits that would be exhibited through the geneseed. It's a trained discipline.
It's the whole 'maneater' debate that has been going on in regards to wild animals. They don't immediately look at humans and go "Delicious!". It's something that has to be learned.

The Raven Guard Successor Chapter, the Raptors for example, don't utilize jump infantry for their precision assaults. They utilize Razorback mounted infantry or Terminator assaults in conjunction with Scout secured firebases.

For a Chapter to survive, it cannot be possible for all of them to be psykers. It would be thought that out of necessity, regular line troopers would be created, while still looking for psykers.

By that same logic a Successor Chapter without some serious clout behind it wouldn't be founded with huge amounts of psykers.

I think that in the fluff, it said that the Blood Ravens suffered a severe defeat against an enemy, where the great father librarian was also killed. Could, like I just said, it not be possible that they were all made up of psykers, but after suffering such severe losses, there was a need to draft regular marines unless they would have been disbanded.

It can not be possible that they were all made up of psykers. They would have been subject to the Inquisition by that point in time and anything like that from a Successor Chapter of any form?
Yeah. That's grounds for termination.

Edit: Also, could it not be possible that the Fated 5th company was lured into the warp by the 1k Son's and Ahriman, by being told they could have unlocked the answers to their founding? If sheltered by the 1k Sons still in the warp, it would explain why they came back untainted and unharmed, except for the librarian who brought them to the warp.

It's possible, but there's plenty of people who've gone into the Warp and come back untainted and unharmed. You don't need to be sheltered by a Traitor Legion for it to happen.


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odmiller wrote:
The Chapter Approved actually makes it very clear that there is no way to explain the number or the power of the librarians. Not recruiting worlds, not anything that can be figured out. The actually run a secret council of Librarians, many librarians hold positions in the leadership unlike other chapters, and they run special all librarian units, especially for seeking our forbidden knowledge.

DOW2 actually dispels that. The recruiting world that Angelos destroyed had a large amount of psykers, and they were kept unfettered. Something happened and corruption broke out.

Funnily enough, their combat doctrine is marked with their depth and planning and thoroughness due to their librarians uncanny ability to predict how their enemies will react. What was it the corvidae specialized in? Even to anticipate and warn of invasions before anyone else has been aware. Funnily enough, it also states that this has led some puritanical members of the inq. to recall that similar warnings were how Magnus began his fall...

The Corvidae specialized in the same thing that pretty much every psyker with precognition can do. Look up "The Emperor's Tarot".

Let's go ahead and assume we can isolate and examine any time the words "Ravens of Blood" are used in a sentence in the Horus Heresy books then. I think you'll find it's less common than you think. Maybe once?

No. The words "Raven" and "blood". It was not capitalized.

As far as the icon. I imagine it's a little bit of a stretch to assume a Chapter founded on T-Sons' geneseed would keep the T-Sons exact icons and color. Might be a few more questions about that. Drop the legion icon and change the raven head into a full raven. Viola! Same meaning to the initiated of the corvidae, not so recognizable to anyone else.

At the same time, nobody outside of the Legion knew what the Cult insignias were. There's no reason for them to have changed it. The raven's head was described in such a way that it mirrored some archaic inscriptions of Odin's Ravens.

As far as escaping the Rubric. In Rebirth, their whole strike cruiser survived the Rubric, not just one special sergeant. Every T-Son sent away survived, and are now scattered. By the way, what is the title Rebirth referring to? It's referring to this Corvidae sergeant, as he disavows Magnus and plans to find his surviving brother and find out the truth. Knowledge is Power don't you know. So he is reborn. As a what? Just a catchy title?

Actually, the Rubric didn't happen until after the Heresy. So we don't know that yet. Which was my point.

As for the geneseed, I would hazard a guess that a couple of years ago the idea that the Grey Knights were founded from Traitor geneseed would be greeted with derision. The idea that Malcador's eyes and ears Iacton Qruse, watching Dorn himself, would be a traitor legionaire, the same.

The Half-Heard has also made his loyalty irrefutably clear. He fought his way clear of Horus' fleet during the Istvaanian dropsite massacre alongside of Nathaniel Garro and the rest of the Eisenstein crew.

Your suggestion that T-Sons would be used to rebuild the librariums across the legios is just as revolutionary and against Imperial doctrine as we know it of not using traitor geneseed, but it's even less supported by any hints at all.

Which is why I've said that it would happen post-Heresy. Rebirth takes place not long after the sacking of Prospero, and the sergeant hasn't come back to the Imperium. I would be surprised if we didn't see this guy crop up in the future during the Garro audiobooks.

There's an interesting line in the Chapter Approved, where it states that no definite single source for Blood Raven geneseed has been identified. How about a mix?

I can definitely get behind this theory. Which is why I go out of my way to point out there's just too many 'unique' trails to follow.

I should also point out that I've never said the Raven Guard are the primogenitors of the Blood Ravens. I even pointed out at one point that it's impossible that the RG are the primogenitors since the Blood Ravens don't exhibit the typical pale skin and charcoal black eyes of the Raven Guard.

I'm begining to wander if Kanluwen is actually fused to his computer with nothing but this forum up and all of the black library novels within arms reach... cos seriously, do you do anything else other than say everyone else is wrong? there are suggestions that they are a possible decendent of the thousand sons, but not definitive, how bout we all agree to disagree on this?

Kanluwen, lol,

After all this, you did not just use a Goto novel to rebutt a point from the Chapter approved did you?

Are we assuming that they are canon now, or was it a mistake?

Off to a final so I will bow out. Let me know if we're using Goto, lol, and I will put some more meat on the bones I listed before.