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Actually no, that's in the game.

Kanluwen wrote:Actually no, that's in the game.

Nice. Video game trumps 4 novels every time! Lol.

odmiller wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Actually no, that's in the game.

Nice. Video game trumps 4 novels every time! Lol.

Well, DOW2 does.

Why?
Because it comes after the whole Goto shenanigans.

Kanluwen wrote:

odmiller wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Actually no, that's in the game.

Nice. Video game trumps 4 novels every time! Lol.

Well, DOW2 does.

Why?
Because it comes after the whole Goto shenanigans.

Probably true, and I shouldnt even bother bringing this up. But like all things I have mentioned, as a possibility, like what happened to Gabriel in the BR novels, he unlocks some massive psychic talent unknown to him and others. It might be possible that the inquisition realized the need for fighting forces, and when they destroyed their history, it may have been that they used a type of mindlock or GK ability to restrain all but the most powerful psychic abilities. Because after the siege of Terra, so much was lost and destroyed, the necessity for any more fighting Space Marines or anything that would give them an advantage would be incredibly helpful

Just wanted to chime in and agree with something Kanluwen said:

Kanluwen wrote:
So in short: unless GW pulls a rabbit out of their hat--it's not any Legion we have information on right now, and it most certainly is not a Traitor Legion--of which there's no way for anyone to get access to the gene seed.

This is really the undeniable truth. While GW is throwing out hints that the Blood Ravens are tied to the 100 sons, they are really just that.

Until GW comes out and states that the Blood Ravens are loyal 1k sons, then there are just WAY too many obstacles in the way of that being true.

At the very least 2 things would have to be explained before this could possibly be true:
1. The fact that 1k son Gene Seed is kept in Stasis
2. The the Flesh Change curse

Okay I have returned from my ban. Now Back to business,
Anyway the Thousands and the Blood Ravens are connected in philosophy, but NOT in geneseed. It is mostly believed that they were part of the 21st founding as that is how far the Blood Ravens History goes.
Not only that but the Blood Ravens lack the flesh change curse. Which was native to the geneseed of the Thousand sons. The Blood Ravens do not have this problem. Instead they are cursed with EXTREMELY bad luck.

Kanulewuen is right they are not descended from the thousand sons, even though that would be very cool indeed, there is no way they can be. All thousand sons were on the planet of Prospero and those that weren't were based on other systems numbering at least a tactical squad each. But then they might of become the black shields of the death Watch. Or they were inducted into the Grey Knights though I perfer the death watch as thousand son death watch sounds BADASS.

The Blood Ravens also may be mentioned but they have similar ideology so this means they aren't true sons but they are related to the thousands in this way. Not by geneseed, but by mind. Which by itself just means both of them like a certain thing. But the Blood Ravens will not damn themselves like the thousand sons. Though according to my most favorite history teacher. History does repeat itself because people do not learn from the past.

But It has with corruption of Kyria and many of the blood ravens the Chapter plunged into a civil war and fought against the evil that erupted from within, though it was dealt with the chapter was severely weakened and its high pysker concentration doubled again, as they found more and more to bolster their numbers.

Though people argue well they have the geneseed locked up in stasis on Luna. Well the thing is the 21st founding used unknown geneseed most notably they made their own, they could of used the geneseed of the thousand sons bended it enough to make it almost like the direct opposite of the thousand sons and there you go, the Blood Ravens are born because they part of the genetic experiment below the planet.

Also who ever argued that the Red Space Marines that were on the planet before, did you ever think they could of been part of the Blood Angels?????? Which they abandoned because they basically felt that the place was damned and abandoned the human population?

Asherian Command wrote:Okay I have returned from my ban. Now Back to business,
Anyway the Thousands and the Blood Ravens are connected in philosophy, but NOT in geneseed. It is mostly believed that they were part of the 21st founding as that is how far the Blood Ravens History goes.
Not only that but the Blood Ravens lack the flesh change curse. Which was native to the geneseed of the Thousand sons. The Blood Ravens do not have this problem. Instead they are cursed with EXTREMELY bad luck.

Kanulewuen is right they are not descended from the thousand sons, even though that would be very cool indeed, there is no way they can be. All thousand sons were on the planet of Prospero and those that weren't were based on other systems numbering at least a tactical squad each. But then they might of become the black shields of the death Watch. Or they were inducted into the Grey Knights though I perfer the death watch as thousand son death watch sounds BADASS.

The Blood Ravens also may be mentioned but they have similar ideology so this means they aren't true sons but they are related to the thousands in this way. Not by geneseed, but by mind. Which by itself just means both of them like a certain thing. But the Blood Ravens will not damn themselves like the thousand sons. Though according to my most favorite history teacher. History does repeat itself because people do not learn from the past.

But It has with corruption of Kyria and many of the blood ravens the Chapter plunged into a civil war and fought against the evil that erupted from within, though it was dealt with the chapter was severely weakened and its high pysker concentration doubled again, as they found more and more to bolster their numbers.

Though people argue well they have the geneseed locked up in stasis on Luna. Well the thing is the 21st founding used unknown geneseed most notably they made their own, they could of used the geneseed of the thousand sons bended it enough to make it almost like the direct opposite of the thousand sons and there you go, the Blood Ravens are born because they part of the genetic experiment below the planet.

Also who ever argued that the Red Space Marines that were on the planet before, did you ever think they could of been part of the Blood Angels?????? Which they abandoned because they basically felt that the place was damned and abandoned the human population?

So, first point. All 1k sons were not on Prospero. The novel A Thousand Sons makes it very clear 4 different fleets were sent away in different directions, under sealed orders, before the Wolves arrived. Multiple battle barges, etc.

2nd, the flesh change. I agree that would have to be solved. But that's something that presumably could be solved by mixing geneseed with that of another chapter and only using 1k Sons seed for psychically gifted individuals. The Chapter Approved states that due to the high number of Librarian applicants they also have a high number of failures, mutations and losses to the warp in the process, and that these failures are kept in a secret Librarium tower. The flesh change seems to occur when the 1k Sons push themselves too far and too hard. Isn't that exactly why Librarians have a psychic hood, are soul bound, and are rigorously trained? The 1k Sons never had training about limits, they had training in the other way, how to expand to the possibilities, never realizing what could happen if you pushed too far.

You answer the geneseed in stasis question very well too from my point of view. GW has changed the rules before with the 21st founding, chapters made and used unknown geneseed. Geneseed has been stolen or lost in multiple stories. To me the most viable way would be to have a regular chapter's tithe of geneseed, and then to monkey with a small % to add in 1k soons geneseed for the most psychically gifted applicants. Viola, more quantity, and more powerful librarians than should be expected.

As for the Red marine, Kanluwen will have to forgive me because I know this book is off limits. However, the red armor comes with a few other caveats. You decide which Legion it could be.
- The red armored marine was manning an outpost that the Blood Ravens keep returning to and rebuilding. The reasons had been lost in time, but it was discovered that they had rebuilt this outpost at least 2x.
- These red armored marines were able to work with the Eldar to set magic and psychic wards to lock a Necron force in Psychic Stasis
- These Heresy Era marines had agreed with the Eldar to guard against this galaxy wide threat, but they mysteriously abandoned the planet and it was never recorded again in Imperial records until the Blood Ravens took it back over.
- Finally, the Eldar still remember working with the Heresy Era marines, and mistake the Blood Ravens as being one and the same

So, there are only a couple of red armored marines at the time of the Heresy, the Blood Angels and the 1k Sons. I think the magic/psychic wards angle makes it seem like 1k Sons are the only real option. On top of that, whoever these marines were, they suddenly left this massive threat they were guarding, and never told anyone in the Imperium about it. Just let it go. I don't see that as the Blood Angels either, but the 1k Sons again fits that picture. And finally, to the Eldar, the Blood Ravens seem to be the same marines - and that's not just because of the color of their armor.

Anyway. Back to our regularly scheduled argument.

One more point about the "prophecy". The first line and the last line all specifically deal with Magnus and what is about to happen on Prospero. Why would the middle lines suddenly jump to Istvaan some time in the future, and then return back to finish on prospero again? And Raven is capitalized, lol. "Raven of blood."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As the prophecy in A Thousand Sons seems to be a source of controversy, I'm going to analyze it line by line. All punctuation is from the book, I won't change anything for any reason.

"It's too late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. O, Throne...the blood!" - this refers to the fact that the Space Wolves are about to be ordered to attack and raise Prospero.

"The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge but it is denied!" - well, these are the magic lines then. It could refer to the Blood Ravens, especially given their mission statement and the short story Rebirth, or it could refer to the Ravenguard and Corax's eventual creation of monsters?

"A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason! It cannot happen, but it must!" - Mutiple ways to read this the first sentence. It could be Magnus killing Uthizzar to prevent him from warning the legion and defending the planet, or it could be what is supposed to happen to Magnus himself (before he decides to fight back at the last second) or . The worst mistake for the noblest reason could be Magnus trying to warn the emperor, or Magnus offering up the 1k Sons for destruction to prove he is not a pawn of Chaos.

In all cases, given the context it seems to me that the Prophecy referes to the 1k Sons themselves, and their near future and not a distant legion and battles that they will not be around to see. I think that's a bit of a stretch.

odmiller wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Okay I have returned from my ban. Now Back to business,
Anyway the Thousands and the Blood Ravens are connected in philosophy, but NOT in geneseed. It is mostly believed that they were part of the 21st founding as that is how far the Blood Ravens History goes.
Not only that but the Blood Ravens lack the flesh change curse. Which was native to the geneseed of the Thousand sons. The Blood Ravens do not have this problem. Instead they are cursed with EXTREMELY bad luck.

Kanulewuen is right they are not descended from the thousand sons, even though that would be very cool indeed, there is no way they can be. All thousand sons were on the planet of Prospero and those that weren't were based on other systems numbering at least a tactical squad each. But then they might of become the black shields of the death Watch. Or they were inducted into the Grey Knights though I perfer the death watch as thousand son death watch sounds BADASS.

The Blood Ravens also may be mentioned but they have similar ideology so this means they aren't true sons but they are related to the thousands in this way. Not by geneseed, but by mind. Which by itself just means both of them like a certain thing. But the Blood Ravens will not damn themselves like the thousand sons. Though according to my most favorite history teacher. History does repeat itself because people do not learn from the past.

But It has with corruption of Kyria and many of the blood ravens the Chapter plunged into a civil war and fought against the evil that erupted from within, though it was dealt with the chapter was severely weakened and its high pysker concentration doubled again, as they found more and more to bolster their numbers.

Though people argue well they have the geneseed locked up in stasis on Luna. Well the thing is the 21st founding used unknown geneseed most notably they made their own, they could of used the geneseed of the thousand sons bended it enough to make it almost like the direct opposite of the thousand sons and there you go, the Blood Ravens are born because they part of the genetic experiment below the planet.

Also who ever argued that the Red Space Marines that were on the planet before, did you ever think they could of been part of the Blood Angels?????? Which they abandoned because they basically felt that the place was damned and abandoned the human population?

So, first point. All 1k sons were not on Prospero. The novel A Thousand Sons makes it very clear 4 different fleets were sent away in different directions, under sealed orders, before the Wolves arrived. Multiple battle barges, etc.

2nd, the flesh change. I agree that would have to be solved. But that's something that presumably could be solved by mixing geneseed with that of another chapter and only using 1k Sons seed for psychically gifted individuals. The Chapter Approved states that due to the high number of Librarian applicants they also have a high number of failures, mutations and losses to the warp in the process, and that these failures are kept in a secret Librarium tower. The flesh change seems to occur when the 1k Sons push themselves too far and too hard. Isn't that exactly why Librarians have a psychic hood, are soul bound, and are rigorously trained? The 1k Sons never had training about limits, they had training in the other way, how to expand to the possibilities, never realizing what could happen if you pushed too far.

You answer the geneseed in stasis question very well too from my point of view. GW has changed the rules before with the 21st founding, chapters made and used unknown geneseed. Geneseed has been stolen or lost in multiple stories. To me the most viable way would be to have a regular chapter's tithe of geneseed, and then to monkey with a small % to add in 1k soons geneseed for the most psychically gifted applicants. Viola, more quantity, and more powerful librarians than should be expected.

As for the Red marine, Kanluwen will have to forgive me because I know this book is off limits. However, the red armor comes with a few other caveats. You decide which Legion it could be.
- The red armored marine was manning an outpost that the Blood Ravens keep returning to and rebuilding. The reasons had been lost in time, but it was discovered that they had rebuilt this outpost at least 2x.
- These red armored marines were able to work with the Eldar to set magic and psychic wards to lock a Necron force in Psychic Stasis
- These Heresy Era marines had agreed with the Eldar to guard against this galaxy wide threat, but they mysteriously abandoned the planet and it was never recorded again in Imperial records until the Blood Ravens took it back over.
- Finally, the Eldar still remember working with the Heresy Era marines, and mistake the Blood Ravens as being one and the same

So, there are only a couple of red armored marines at the time of the Heresy, the Blood Angels and the 1k Sons. I think the magic/psychic wards angle makes it seem like 1k Sons are the only real option. On top of that, whoever these marines were, they suddenly left this massive threat they were guarding, and never told anyone in the Imperium about it. Just let it go. I don't see that as the Blood Angels either, but the 1k Sons again fits that picture. And finally, to the Eldar, the Blood Ravens seem to be the same marines - and that's not just because of the color of their armor.

Anyway. Back to our regularly scheduled argument.

One more point about the "prophecy". The first line and the last line all specifically deal with Magnus and what is about to happen on Prospero. Why would the middle lines suddenly jump to Istvaan some time in the future, and then return back to finish on prospero again? And Raven is capitalized, lol. "Raven of blood."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As the prophecy in A Thousand Sons seems to be a source of controversy, I'm going to analyze it line by line. All punctuation is from the book, I won't change anything for any reason.

"It's too late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. O, Throne...the blood!" - this refers to the fact that the Space Wolves are about to be ordered to attack and raise Prospero.

"The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge but it is denied!" - well, these are the magic lines then. It could refer to the Blood Ravens, especially given their mission statement and the short story Rebirth, or it could refer to the Ravenguard and Corax's eventual creation of monsters?

"A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason! It cannot happen, but it must!" - Mutiple ways to read this the first sentence. It could be Magnus killing Uthizzar to prevent him from warning the legion and defending the planet, or it could be what is supposed to happen to Magnus himself (before he decides to fight back at the last second). The worst mistake for the noblest reason could be Magnus trying to warn the emperor, or Magnus offering up the 1k Sons for destruction to prove he is not a pawn of Chaos.

In all cases, given the context it seems to me that the Prophecy referes to the 1k Sons themselves, and their near future and not a distant legion and battles that they will not be around to see. I think that's a bit of a stretch.

odmiller wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:Okay I have returned from my ban. Now Back to business,
Anyway the Thousands and the Blood Ravens are connected in philosophy, but NOT in geneseed. It is mostly believed that they were part of the 21st founding as that is how far the Blood Ravens History goes.
Not only that but the Blood Ravens lack the flesh change curse. Which was native to the geneseed of the Thousand sons. The Blood Ravens do not have this problem. Instead they are cursed with EXTREMELY bad luck.

Kanulewuen is right they are not descended from the thousand sons, even though that would be very cool indeed, there is no way they can be. All thousand sons were on the planet of Prospero and those that weren't were based on other systems numbering at least a tactical squad each. But then they might of become the black shields of the death Watch. Or they were inducted into the Grey Knights though I perfer the death watch as thousand son death watch sounds BADASS.

The Blood Ravens also may be mentioned but they have similar ideology so this means they aren't true sons but they are related to the thousands in this way. Not by geneseed, but by mind. Which by itself just means both of them like a certain thing. But the Blood Ravens will not damn themselves like the thousand sons. Though according to my most favorite history teacher. History does repeat itself because people do not learn from the past.

But It has with corruption of Kyria and many of the blood ravens the Chapter plunged into a civil war and fought against the evil that erupted from within, though it was dealt with the chapter was severely weakened and its high pysker concentration doubled again, as they found more and more to bolster their numbers.

Though people argue well they have the geneseed locked up in stasis on Luna. Well the thing is the 21st founding used unknown geneseed most notably they made their own, they could of used the geneseed of the thousand sons bended it enough to make it almost like the direct opposite of the thousand sons and there you go, the Blood Ravens are born because they part of the genetic experiment below the planet.

Also who ever argued that the Red Space Marines that were on the planet before, did you ever think they could of been part of the Blood Angels?????? Which they abandoned because they basically felt that the place was damned and abandoned the human population?

So, first point. All 1k sons were not on Prospero. The novel A Thousand Sons makes it very clear 4 different fleets were sent away in different directions, under sealed orders, before the Wolves arrived. Multiple battle barges, etc.

2nd, the flesh change. I agree that would have to be solved. But that's something that presumably could be solved by mixing geneseed with that of another chapter and only using 1k Sons seed for psychically gifted individuals. The Chapter Approved states that due to the high number of Librarian applicants they also have a high number of failures, mutations and losses to the warp in the process, and that these failures are kept in a secret Librarium tower. The flesh change seems to occur when the 1k Sons push themselves too far and too hard. Isn't that exactly why Librarians have a psychic hood, are soul bound, and are rigorously trained? The 1k Sons never had training about limits, they had training in the other way, how to expand to the possibilities, never realizing what could happen if you pushed too far.

You answer the geneseed in stasis question very well too from my point of view. GW has changed the rules before with the 21st founding, chapters made and used unknown geneseed. Geneseed has been stolen or lost in multiple stories. To me the most viable way would be to have a regular chapter's tithe of geneseed, and then to monkey with a small % to add in 1k soons geneseed for the most psychically gifted applicants. Viola, more quantity, and more powerful librarians than should be expected.

As for the Red marine, Kanluwen will have to forgive me because I know this book is off limits. However, the red armor comes with a few other caveats. You decide which Legion it could be.
- The red armored marine was manning an outpost that the Blood Ravens keep returning to and rebuilding. The reasons had been lost in time, but it was discovered that they had rebuilt this outpost at least 2x.
- These red armored marines were able to work with the Eldar to set magic and psychic wards to lock a Necron force in Psychic Stasis
- These Heresy Era marines had agreed with the Eldar to guard against this galaxy wide threat, but they mysteriously abandoned the planet and it was never recorded again in Imperial records until the Blood Ravens took it back over.
- Finally, the Eldar still remember working with the Heresy Era marines, and mistake the Blood Ravens as being one and the same

So, there are only a couple of red armored marines at the time of the Heresy, the Blood Angels and the 1k Sons. I think the magic/psychic wards angle makes it seem like 1k Sons are the only real option. On top of that, whoever these marines were, they suddenly left this massive threat they were guarding, and never told anyone in the Imperium about it. Just let it go. I don't see that as the Blood Angels either, but the 1k Sons again fits that picture. And finally, to the Eldar, the Blood Ravens seem to be the same marines - and that's not just because of the color of their armor.

Anyway. Back to our regularly scheduled argument.

One more point about the "prophecy". The first line and the last line all specifically deal with Magnus and what is about to happen on Prospero. Why would the middle lines suddenly jump to Istvaan some time in the future, and then return back to finish on prospero again? And Raven is capitalized, lol. "Raven of blood."




Automatically Appended Next Post:
As the prophecy in A Thousand Sons seems to be a source of controversy, I'm going to analyze it line by line. All punctuation is from the book, I won't change anything for any reason.

"It's too late...the Wolf is at the door and it hungers for blood. O, Throne...the blood!" - this refers to the fact that the Space Wolves are about to be ordered to attack and raise Prospero.

"The Ravens, I see them too. The lost sons and a Raven of blood. They cry out for salvation and knowledge but it is denied!" - well, these are the magic lines then. It could refer to the Blood Ravens, especially given their mission statement and the short story Rebirth, or it could refer to the Ravenguard and Corax's eventual creation of monsters?

"A brother betrayed, a brother murdered. The worst mistake for the noblest reason! It cannot happen, but it must!" - Mutiple ways to read this the first sentence. It could be Magnus killing Uthizzar to prevent him from warning the legion and defending the planet, or it could be what is supposed to happen to Magnus himself (before he decides to fight back at the last second) or . The worst mistake for the noblest reason could be Magnus trying to warn the emperor, or Magnus offering up the 1k Sons for destruction to prove he is not a pawn of Chaos.

In all cases, given the context it seems to me that the Prophecy referes to the 1k Sons themselves, and their near future and not a distant legion and battles that they will not be around to see. I think that's a bit of a stretch.

After writing a few short stories about the 40k universe which are fairly good. You learn alot from going into indepth lore history panels with friends learning almost everything I have read every white dwarf with the index astrates. And almost every single article on the geneseed production. This game was my life for a while. So Its hard not for me to forget. And me and a huge group of people made a libarary of information, that contains every white dwarf before this crap fest one.

Anyway I have not read Rebirth or Prospero Burns.

The Blood Raven series i have read cover to cover. I even have notes on it. Even about the transforming land raider.

But this is not about the Transforming Vechiles of the 40k Goto Verse. The Blood Ravens are actual lore that is actually one of the biggest parts of the 40k universe as they are so suspicious and one of the few chapters that know of the existence of the Grey Knights and what they can do. They are very cool chapter though the only problem is they are copy and pasted thousand sons except for the part that they do not have the flesh change as often. Though we don't know what the flesh change makes you look like. That is my thing, what would you look like? We don't know. One that I know is true is the Karskian who's hands changed into something disgusting, which apparently Gabriel hid from his brothers.

Of the chapters that I know of that have flesh change issues the Black Dragons and the infamous warriors of the one chapter I cannot remember but they completely changed forms into giant husking beasts, that were subsquently destroyed by the crimson fists and the inqusition. Apparently some of that chapter still exist. Could that chapter be descended from the thousand sons? No. because the 21st founding produced some of the weirdest and most powerful chapters of all time.
I believe the Blood Ravens could be descended from this, but after reading the blood raven series i severely doubt that. M37 is the farthest and most accurate date of the chapter. Apparently centuries of other history are also found that date back before the Age of Apostasy, which means they could be descended from the thousand sons, though it is very unlikely.

The Twenty First Founding was the largest Founding of Space Marine Chapters since the Second Founding. It took place shortly before the Age of Apostasy, in M36.

I can't really take a side on this, as i am divided between thousand sons and a 21st founding geneseed. Unless someone proves it to me otherwise.

But i still think parts of the thousand sons helped make death watch.

Asherian Command wrote:

After writing a few short stories about the 40k universe which are fairly good. ( Wait, you wrote short stories? Are you published? ) You learn alot from going into indepth lore history panels with friends learning almost everything I have read every white dwarf with the index astrates. And almost every single article on the geneseed production. This game was my life for a while. So Its hard not for me to forget. And me and a huge group of people made a libarary of information, that contains every white dwarf before this crap fest one.

Anyway I have not read Rebirth or Prospero Burns.

The Blood Raven series i have read cover to cover. I even have notes on it. Even about the transforming land raider.

But this is not about the Transforming Vechiles of the 40k Goto Verse. The Blood Ravens are actual lore that is actually one of the biggest parts of the 40k universe as they are so suspicious and one of the few chapters that know of the existence of the Grey Knights and what they can do. Please cite.

They are very cool chapter though the only problem is they are copy and pasted thousand sons except for the part that they do not have the flesh change as often. Incorrect. The Thousand Sons were a Legion made purely of psykers. The Blood Ravens do have an abundance of psykers, but so do other chapters - the Dark Angels, for example

Though we don't know what the flesh change makes you look like. That is my thing, what would you look like? We don't know. One that I know is true is the Karskian who's hands changed into something disgusting, which apparently Gabriel hid from his brothers. The flesh change is described in Thousand Sons. It basically turns you into a Chaos Spawn. No Kasrkin would be affected - the flesh change was a unique feature of the 1k Sons gene seed.

Of the chapters that I know of that have flesh change issues the Black Dragons and the infamous warriors of the one chapter I cannot remember but they completely changed forms into giant husking beasts, that were subsquently destroyed by the crimson fists and the inqusition. Apparently some of that chapter still exist. Could that chapter be descended from the thousand sons? No. because the 21st founding produced some of the weirdest and most powerful chapters of all time.

I believe the Blood Ravens could be descended from this, but after reading the blood raven series i severely doubt that. M37 is the farthest and most accurate date of the chapter. Apparently centuries of other history are also found that date back before the Age of Apostasy, which means they could be descended from the thousand sons, though it is very unlikely.

The Twenty First Founding was the largest Founding of Space Marine Chapters since the Second Founding. It took place shortly before the Age of Apostasy, in M36.

I can't really take a side on this, as i am divided between thousand sons and a 21st founding geneseed. Unless someone proves it to me otherwise.

But i still think parts of the thousand sons helped make death watch. Why's that?

The Dark Angels do not have a level of psychers anywhere near the Blood Ravens. In fact, in the newest codex, there's nothing to suggest the DA have any more than any other chapter.

The Blood Raven chapter approved stresses over and over just how prevelant and powerful the Librarians are in the Blood Ravens. Lots of Librarians, even in command positions, with full secret Librarian squads and a secret Librarian inner circle.

In addition, the Blood Ravens have a high rate of would be Librarians failing to control their power, and turning into....abominations. These they keep in a special tower to study ...

infinite_array wrote:

Asherian Command wrote:

After writing a few short stories about the 40k universe which are fairly good. ( Wait, you wrote short stories? Are you published? )! Well Infinite I have not been published but i do write lots of 40k fluff.
The reasons I will explain, I am 17. Who well write a 17 year olds stuff?!??!? Read The Blood Raven books they mentioned the grey knights once.
You learn alot from going into indepth lore history panels with friends learning almost everything I have read every white dwarf with the index astrates. And almost every single article on the geneseed production. This game was my life for a while. So Its hard not for me to forget. And me and a huge group of people made a libarary of information, that contains every white dwarf before this crap fest one.

Anyway I have not read Rebirth or Prospero Burns.

The Blood Raven series i have read cover to cover. I even have notes on it. Even about the transforming land raider.

But this is not about the Transforming Vechiles of the 40k Goto Verse. The Blood Ravens are actual lore that is actually one of the biggest parts of the 40k universe as they are so suspicious and one of the few chapters that know of the existence of the Grey Knights and what they can do. Please cite. Read The Blood Raven books they mentioned the grey knights once.

They are very cool chapter though the only problem is they are copy and pasted thousand sons except for the part that they do not have the flesh change as often. Incorrect. The Thousand Sons were a Legion made purely of psykers. The Blood Ravens do have an abundance of psykers, but so do other chapters - the Dark Angels, for example True but still, for a relatively new chapter they have alot. and can make an entire company with them.

Though we don't know what the flesh change makes you look like. That is my thing, what would you look like? We don't know. One that I know is true is the Karskian who's hands changed into something disgusting, which apparently Gabriel hid from his brothers. The flesh change is described in Thousand Sons. It basically turns you into a Chaos Spawn. No Kasrkin would be affected - the flesh change was a unique feature of the 1k Sons gene seed. Ah

Of the chapters that I know of that have flesh change issues the Black Dragons and the infamous warriors of the one chapter I cannot remember but they completely changed forms into giant husking beasts, that were subsquently destroyed by the crimson fists and the inqusition. Apparently some of that chapter still exist. Could that chapter be descended from the thousand sons? No. because the 21st founding produced some of the weirdest and most powerful chapters of all time.

I believe the Blood Ravens could be descended from this, but after reading the blood raven series i severely doubt that. M37 is the farthest and most accurate date of the chapter. Apparently centuries of other history are also found that date back before the Age of Apostasy, which means they could be descended from the thousand sons, though it is very unlikely.

The Twenty First Founding was the largest Founding of Space Marine Chapters since the Second Founding. It took place shortly before the Age of Apostasy, in M36.

I can't really take a side on this, as i am divided between thousand sons and a 21st founding geneseed. Unless someone proves it to me otherwise.

But i still think parts of the thousand sons helped make death watch. Why's that? because lets face it where else would they go??? There is something called the black shields where space marines abandon their titles and chapter icons in favor of death watch icongraphy and personnel name.

The thousand sons loyalists would try and redeem themselves by fighting for the imperium and dieing in an honorable fashion. Read deathwatch the rpg series.

Ok, now here's a problem with using Black Library books as reference (especially C.S. God, why am I reading this?)

GW makes China look like pansies when it comes to revising history. They have a policy - the only information that is truly cannon is what they currently produce. As an example, read The Inquisitor Wars omnibus, and you'll see the changes GW has made over time.

So, let's take the Grey Knights - according to their current codex, there is no way, unfortunately, that the Blood Ravens would have knowledge of the Grey Knights. Any operation conducted with them would be wiped from the minds of the other Astartes - this is mentioned a couple of times in the new Codex.

As for the Blood Ravens being able to field an entire company of Librarians? If that's Goto, then again, can't be trusted. Not only that, but making 1/10 of your entire chapter liable to Chaos infection doesn't seem like too good of an idea. Do the Blood Ravens have a higher number of psykers amongst their ranks? Certainly. Do Librarians of the Blood Ravens take field command roles more often than in other chapters? yes, they do.

We do not know if the Blood Ravens are a 'young chapter', seeing as they have no records of their founding.

As for the Deathwatch, this did not exist during or even close to the Horus Heresy. The reason for this? At that time, the Legions did all the fighting against any Xenos encountered. After the Horus Heresy, there wasn't much to fight in the way of Xenos, as the Crusades had done their jobs.

One of the better theories out there is that Arvida - the last surviving loyalist 1k Sons (as revealed in Rebirth) - may have gone on to become one of the first Grey Knights.

Even Goto doesn't say that they can have "companies of Librarians". The only special thing they were mentioned of having was squads of Librarians.

I doubt Arvida became a Grey Knight. According to the latest info about Captain Garro and the nascent Inquisition, only the eight survivors of Istvaan III became Grey Knights. The Blood Ravens could also have avoided the Flesh-Change (or reduced the risk of falling) by not using sorcery. Although Vidya is the first recorded Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens, the fragmented (and perhaps-Inquisitorially sealed) records before M37 stated (according to DOW II) that there were 'four heroes' of the Chapter from before M37. The only one that was named was Alexian, who was also mentioned in Dark Crusade. I'm not saying that the Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons, it's just that until GW makes the final decision (if ever) we shouldn't set our thinking in stone. As for Ascension's mention of red marines working with Eldar during the Crusade to seal the Necrons, it's probably the Thousand Sons. Only they had the psychic power among the legions to match the Eldar. As for escaping the Rubric, there's a simple answer. According to Codex: Chaos Space Marines, the Rubric covered the Planet of the Sorcerers with a massive storm of magic, meaning it only affected the marines on the planet. Any loyalist or traitor Thousand Sons off-world would not have been affected by the Rubric.

Aaron Dembski-Bowden, who has published not a word about the Blood Ravens, but is at least a BL author, has said GW's plan is to never make it clear who they're descended from, and that the more recent hints he would not be surprised to see walked back quite a ways.

I'll dig up the quote if I really have to. It's over on B&C somewhere.

Even if the Blood Ravens' origins don't get cleared up, then maybe the questions about the Thousand Sons might in the upcoming 6th Edition.