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Fair enough - thats what happens when 40k writers try to write fantasy army books...we've seen it with Cruddace and "we dont need no stinking saves!" Tomb Kings

Vaktathi wrote:This[/url] one?

Yeah i have that one. Thanks though.

Stella Cadente wrote:*tries hard to hold in a massive LOL at the utter rubbish of this statement*

I couldnt hold it in. My mums looking at me like im crazy.

Doctadeth wrote:We even got our chaplain character ripped out of the codex....grrr.

I was so bummed out when they omitted him from the 4rd ed dex. He was such a good character.

EDIT: I had put 3rd ed codex. I changed it to 4th.

Trollhammaren wrote:

Stella Cadente wrote:*tries hard to hold in a massive LOL at the utter rubbish of this statement*

I couldnt hold it in. My mums looking at me like im crazy.

In that case the joke is on you. Of course, if you think that the old 4. edition crap ( Codex Orks, Eldar...) is the epitome of balance then i cannot help you.

Are you refering to the 4th ed Codices or the 4th ed Rulebook?
Because I never played a game under the 4th ed Rulebook and i havent played against Orks or Eldar yet under their 4th ed Codices.

So i see no joke...

Considering the 2 most complained about codex are SW and IG, neither of which Ward had anything to do with, it's safe to say he doesn't make overpowered rules.

He does make some crap rules though and he's certainly a problem with encouraging codex creep through said crap units. Dreadknights and priests are a bit excessive. Same with a lot of the GK stuff, but they pay a lot to abuse those units so it evens out a little.

He's also better known as the great destroyer in fluff circles.

1W priests that are forced to get into BtB with the enemy - not really a problem.

The Eldar codex makes IG and SW look a balanced codex. During 4th edition you had an army that could, quite seriously, not take a single casualty *all game* while destroying your entire force. Look up the flying circus (3x6 harlie, kiss, holod falcons) lists of old. Eugh.

To all the people claiming BA / GK / SM are overpowered - any objective proof? Anything? M Ward makes good, balanced codexes. Seriously.

nosferatu1001 wrote:M Ward makes good, balanced codexes. Seriously.

and I'm the king of england...seriously

Stella Cadente wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:M Ward makes good, balanced codexes. Seriously.

and I'm the king of england...seriously

Nice counter-argument you've got there, Your Majesty...

If we could indeed avoid comments like that it'd be appreciated. It doesn't add anything to any discussion.

thanks

Archonate wrote:I couldn't vote, all the options are the same!
To me, your poll says "which space marines are the worst? Space marines? Space marines? Space Marines? or Space marines?"

+1

"Marsha, Marsha, Marsha!"

Most of you are to young to know the reference.

Stella Cadente wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:M Ward makes good, balanced codexes. Seriously.

and I'm the king of england...seriously

So, any objective arguments? Or just a series of...helpful comments?

SW and IG are leagues above GK, SM and BA. GK SM and BA are internally very well balanced, giving a wide range of viable armies.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So, any objective arguments? Or just a series of...helpful comments?

SW and IG are leagues above GK, SM and BA. GK SM and BA are internally very well balanced, giving a wide range of viable armies.

"leagues" above? A little bit, but certainly not "leagues". With Blood Angels, an army renowned for close assaults and jump pack troops, all of a sudden they can field more heavy armor than any army but IG and twice as many dreads as any other Space Marine army, with the cheapest heavy weapon troops of any space marine army aside from the ludicrously undercosted Long Fangs? Routinely seeing BA armies with half a dozen scoring laz/plaz razorbacks filled with melta toting assault troops backed up by half a dozen Fast AV13 battle tanks is hard to see as well balanced.

For a CC themed army, BT have a surprising lack of WS6 and above, I think Emperor's Champion is the only one. Even Helbrecht only has WS5.
Having said that, my vote goes to Vanilla, I dunno, I just look through their codex and think to myself "Blech." Although I cannot say why.

BT are incredibly competitive for an old codex as long as you stay away from special characters and super expensive marshals.

I started with them this year and I bitched a lot about imbalance and outdated rules, then my 40k "mentor" enlighted me to 2x HVW terminator vet squads, 70 pt typhoon speeders, 145 pt Pred Anni /w LCs, potms vinds...

Movac wrote:BT are incredibly competitive for an old codex as long as you stay away from special characters and super expensive marshals.

I started with them this year and I bitched a lot about imbalance and outdated rules, then my 40k "mentor" enlighted me to 2x HVW terminator vet squads, 70 pt typhoon speeders, 145 pt Pred Anni /w LCs, potms vinds...

Indeed, the FAQ has left us in a much better position than we were before. The issue is that the most CC focused Chapter now is a gunline chapter. Not complaining about competetiveness, but it sure is strange...

Chaos Codex was obviously a failed experiment on a grand scale. Statline and armor does not a Marine make. ATSKNF... the lack of it, kills Chaos marines.

The only point where the Icon system is of any use is the IoCG, because any unit with something else risks runing away from shooting or melee kills. Icon of Slannesh should have been +2 Init. Demons should have been real demons, not generic POS demons. Ect, ect, ect...

If they re-do the Chaos Marine Codex, should combine the Demon Codex and add in rules for Chaos Guard and the like, kinda like the Vanilla Marine Codex.

Nvs wrote:At the start of all of this, all BA had were fast rhinos and assault troops. Space Wolves had true grit and cheaper grey hunters. Black Templar had mixed squads that were effectively scouts + marines in one.

Start?

At the start, none of them had any differences at all, and there were no Black Templars.

If you mean by the time they did get separated, Blood Angels had Death Company as their only difference (besides characters). Dark Angels had more mechanical differences than Blood Angels. However, even they weren't that different than "regular" (meaning Ultramarines).

Space Wolves were the only loyalist marine army that was structurally different.

BlkTom wrote:Chaos Codex was obviously a failed experiment on a grand scale. Statline and armor does not a Marine make. ATSKNF... the lack of it, kills Chaos marines.

The only point where the Icon system is of any use is the IoCG, because any unit with something else risks runing away from shooting or melee kills. Icon of Slannesh should have been +2 Init. Demons should have been real demons, not generic POS demons. Ect, ect, ect...

If they re-do the Chaos Marine Codex, should combine the Demon Codex and add in rules for Chaos Guard and the like, kinda like the Vanilla Marine Codex.

Chaos Marines never had ATSKNF, not a nessesity back in last edition when you can run all Fearless Cult armies anyway.
Agree with the rest of your points.

The issue with the Chaos Space marine Codex is that there are 9 legions, and each one has a unique fighting style. Trying to fit all of that into one book is just crazy.

2 CSM books would work much better.

Chaos Legions : Black Legion, the 4 god specific legions.
Only have cult troops, no "normal" CSM. Everything in the book is dedicated to a specific god (including daemons). Similar to GK in style. (more expensive/more elite MEQ units)

Chaos Renegades : Alpha legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors. Include LotD/Traitor Guard unit.
Everything is Chaos Undivided. Horde units of regular humans lead by Marines. Some sneaky specialists, some artillery, Chaos Undivided daemons.

svendrex wrote:The issue with the Chaos Space marine Codex is that there are 9 legions, and each one has a unique fighting style. Trying to fit all of that into one book is just crazy.

2 CSM books would work much better.

Chaos Legions : Black Legion, the 4 god specific legions.
Only have cult troops, no "normal" CSM. Everything in the book is dedicated to a specific god (including daemons). Similar to GK in style. (more expensive/more elite MEQ units)

Chaos Renegades : Alpha legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors. Include LotD/Traitor Guard unit.
Everything is Chaos Undivided. Horde units of regular humans lead by Marines. Some sneaky specialists, some artillery, Chaos Undivided daemons.

Thats a bloody brilliant idea that is. You couldn't go wrong with a system like that. Now if only there was a way to implement that into a pair of codices for regular marines.
Thats also where i think they partly ballsed up with the GK codex. They should have waited a little longer and done a "Codex: Inquisition" and combined all 3 ordos into one. That way we have been spared the likes of whoever it was that carved his name in the heart of a Primarch and all the rest of that stupid BS

Ah well maybe one day...

svendrex wrote:The issue with the Chaos Space marine Codex is that there are 9 legions, and each one has a unique fighting style. Trying to fit all of that into one book is just crazy.

2 CSM books would work much better.

Chaos Legions : Black Legion, the 4 god specific legions.
Only have cult troops, no "normal" CSM. Everything in the book is dedicated to a specific god (including daemons). Similar to GK in style. (more expensive/more elite MEQ units)

Chaos Renegades : Alpha legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors. Include LotD/Traitor Guard unit.
Everything is Chaos Undivided. Horde units of regular humans lead by Marines. Some sneaky specialists, some artillery, Chaos Undivided daemons.

But that might put chaos on par with IoM, and GW couldnt have that .
All wise ery aside I think that would be an awesome idea and I would be inclined to try it.

I have had that idea for a while. I keep posting it in threads like this with the hope that GW will eventually read it and decide that it is awesome as well.


Send me a PM GW, I already have a lot of ideas. They are yours for Free!

Trolhammeran - there never was going to be an Inq codex

It was "fan spank" according to JJ

Ill say CSM. They codex was so terrible that when it came out, I went and bought the Ork codex right after. I always wanted to play Orks, and I figured now is as good a time as any. Im glad I made the switch mind you but still, the Chaos got butt raped.

@Nosferatu1001 - I didnt know that there was a rumour about something like that... I've always just thought it would be a pretty good idea to just combine all 3 into a single book.

NO, it wasnt a rumour so much as a wishlist - which was essentially "fan w*nk", i.e. never going to happen.

Well, this has gone on longer than I expected.

Interesting to see the Chaos hate though. And the Templar love.

For me its not hate of Chaos, just frustration at a limited, dull flavourless codex that could have been so much more.

Alas it was rushed so Orks could get the delay they neededto sort out production issues....

In my opinion, Chaos has the best overall fluff of the MeQs (though their most recent codex isn't that good), but their rules don't represent them while or distinguish them from Vanilla Marines enough. Look at the 3rd Edition Chaos Codex. That's what Chaos is all about, not just spiky Marines. Chaos Space Marines will probably never get better, GW loves Vanilla Marines and already has a separate codex for pure Chaos now.

Chaos/DA are just pretty terrible. Everyone else does their job pretty well.