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After hearing the captain of the Scottish ETC on the 11th Company (can't remember his name, sorry) call the Dark Angels the worst MEQ. I wonder if that was true, so I want your opinion.

By MEQ, I am defining MARINES ONLY. Not things with stats of 4 and 3+ save.

So why not worst Marines? MEQ stands for Marine EQuivalent, so a better quest would be "Which are the worst Marines?".

My vote goes to Chaos. Their armies aren't amazing when you start to include diversity. DA get Ravenwing/Deathwing, unsure about BTs, and the rest of them have a variety of different builds.

Chaos at higher levels is simply "Lash Princes + Plague Marines (in rhinos) + Obliterators." Berzerkers are sometimes used, but rarely are basic CSMs, Noise Marines or Rubrics fielded. Chosen can sometimes make an appearence, but it's rare, and Termies are only really used for Termicide.

Lords have little in the way of any protection (best invul they can get is 4+ from an overpriced mark) and are rarely taken to complement CC with MoK and twin LCs or a Daemon Weapon of whichever mark suits you (usually Nurgle due to all the MCs strolling around). Sorcerers are also rare unless you want your lash to go in a rhino.

Fast Attack is laughable. Heavy Support is where all the action is, you're forced to choose between Obliterators, Vindicators, Defilers and Land Raiders because Preds and Havocs are, for lack of a better word, gak.

Obliterators usually win out because they can DS, have a 2+/5+ and an array of BS4 weaponry, as opposed to the other 3 which usually snuff it to the missile launcher spam that has become Overused Tactic #1 recently.

I'm gunna stop there because i'm imagining myself saying all this in a way not unlike that of the Zero Punctuation guy, which sounds awesome but really just makes it apparent that i'm starting to sound like a bit of an annoying drone.

Chaos space marines, they currently have the weakest codex with the least amount of sensible options. The Dark Angels got at least a nice faq.

Avatar 720 wrote:*Snip*

*Looks up from tying a Gav Thrope doll to a stake.*

What he said.

*Starts striking matches*

This is interesting.

I thought BT, DA, vanilla Marines, Chaos, BA and Space Wolves from the bottom upwards. Interesting to see the Chaos hate.

Dark angels gotta take the cake.

Nooooo way Vanilla is worse than Chaos. Personally, I rate it as:

Chaos < DA < BT < Vanilla < BA < Puppies.

I couldn't vote, all the options are the same!
To me, your poll says "which space marines are the worst? Space marines? Space marines? Space Marines? or Space marines?"

Archonate wrote:I couldn't vote, all the options are the same!
To me, your poll says "which space marines are the worst? Space marines? Space marines? Space Marines? or Space marines?"

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Archonate wrote:I couldn't vote, all the options are the same!
To me, your poll says "which space marines are the worst? Space marines? Space marines? Space Marines? or Space marines?"

^ Thats pretty funny. Im tossing up whether its sig worthy or not...


Unfortunately i have to say the worst MEQ imho are my beloved Dark Angels. Our Captains only have WS 5, where as i believe other Captains have 6. Our special charaters are naff. We have fewer list options then other lists, although by the sounds of it the CSM have got it pretty rough too. We dont have nearly as many weapon and wargear options as every other Marine list has. No access to LR redeemers, which is a kick in the cod piece. I could go on but i wont.

On a side note, while we do have the DA upgrade pack both BA and the SW get fancy models as standard in box sets. DA players dont. Etc etc so on and so forth. OK rant/whine over my apologies.

Trollhammaren wrote:
Unfortunately i have to say the worst MEQ imho are my beloved Dark Angels. Our Captains only have WS 5, where as i believe other Captains have 6. Our special charaters are naff.

Are we forgetting that they make all other Dark Angels units on the table Ld10? I'd trade 1pt of Weapon Skill that'll only matter against maybe 10% of opposing models for a huge army wide Ld buff.

We dont have nearly as many weapon and wargear options as every other Marine list has. No access to LR redeemers, which is a kick in the cod piece. I could go on but i wont.

Neither do Black Templars. Both of these books are older than the current C:SM and the LR Redeemer didn't exist. It's also certainly not going to make or break the army just because they don't have LR's with big flamers. Don't forget that thanks to their new Errata update, DA's also get *really* cheap Typhoon land speeders and now get the same undercosted Stormshield toting termi's but with more flexible squad loadouts.

They're all the same, but I'd say vanilla. Boring...... Like, really.

But CSM are probably the worst (sorry!). No POTMS, nothing good to speak of except plague marines and Obliterators

Trollhammaren wrote:
On a side note, while we do have the DA upgrade pack both BA and the SW get fancy models as standard in box sets. DA players dont. Etc etc so on and so forth. OK rant/whine over my apologies.

If you think your upgrade pack is bad, try the Black Templars... you have to get the back pieces for the Marines from somewhere else (I.e. the darn thing requires you to purchase a tac squad too!!)...

Chaos simply because they have no variety. What works, works. What doesn't, doesn't. There's no gray area for them. It's either good or worthless.

Dark Angels would be a close runner up simply because GW has removed any reason for their codex to still exist.

I'm still hoping 6th edition will just have a Codex: Adeptus Astartes and we can do away with all this nonsense.

The vast majority of each book can be done with basic FO swaps, or generic point increases. The few things that can't be obtained this way likely shouldn't exist in the first place (Thunderwolf Cavalry, Dreadknights, Priests, Paladins)

KingDeath wrote:Chaos space marines, they currently have the weakest codex with the least amount of sensible options. The Dark Angels got at least a nice faq.

This

I voted vanilla.

My reasoning is as follows; though they're better (as a codex) than Chaos, there really is very little reason to use them, as literally everything the codex does is done better by BA/SW/GK/BT/DA.

I place an invalid codex below a 'bad' codex in my personal hierarchy.

At least Chaos Marines have some unique units. Not many, but they are there.

Vaktathi wrote: Are we forgetting that they make all other Dark Angels units on the table Ld10? I'd trade 1pt of Weapon Skill that'll only matter against maybe 10% of opposing models for a huge army wide Ld buff.

Neither do Black Templars. Both of these books are older than the current C:SM and the LR Redeemer didn't exist. It's also certainly not going to make or break the army just because they don't have LR's with big flamers. Don't forget that thanks to their new Errata update, DA's also get *really* cheap Typhoon land speeders and now get the same undercosted Stormshield toting termi's but with more flexible squad loadouts.

You do make a vaild point about the army wide Ld buff. I usually run my Commander with my vet squad and drop pod them into my opponents battle line so the extra WS would be nice as im in the thick of it straight off. I will however concede that point because the army wide Ld 10 is nice. Also can you point me in the direction of that Errata update, unless its the one on the GW site which i already have.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:If you think your upgrade pack is bad, try the Black Templars... you have to get the back pieces for the Marines from somewhere else (I.e. the darn thing requires you to purchase a tac squad too!!)...

Maybe i should stop bitching about how bad the DA are...?
Also point of intrest, I dont think the DA upgrade pack is bad and as a matter of fact i quite like it. My gripe is the fact that both SW and BA get detailed models such as the Sang guard and Death company and SW get the Wolf guard Termies and Space wolves pack where as we dont get anything like that. I mean i couldnt tell you how happy i would be if they release a Deathwing squad.

So pretty much im just being a whiney little nerd.

Trollhammaren wrote:

Vaktathi wrote: Are we forgetting that they make all other Dark Angels units on the table Ld10? I'd trade 1pt of Weapon Skill that'll only matter against maybe 10% of opposing models for a huge army wide Ld buff.

Neither do Black Templars. Both of these books are older than the current C:SM and the LR Redeemer didn't exist. It's also certainly not going to make or break the army just because they don't have LR's with big flamers. Don't forget that thanks to their new Errata update, DA's also get *really* cheap Typhoon land speeders and now get the same undercosted Stormshield toting termi's but with more flexible squad loadouts.

You do make a vaild point about the army wide Ld buff. I usually run my Commander with my vet squad and drop pod them into my opponents battle line so the extra WS would be nice as im in the thick of it straight off. I will however concede that point because the army wide Ld 10 is nice. Also can you point me in the direction of that Errata update, unless its the one on the GW site which i already have.

This one?

Dark angels have to be the worst MEQ.

GW has taken out the fluff, and pretty much invalidated any reasons for DA to exist. Sure we get FAQed, and get deathwing assault and ravenwing....

Dark angels veterans, in other words vanilla with more flexibility. Our characters have a MCed power weapon/combiweapons or bolt pistols....big whoop. Oh sure, we get a nice new combo of PPs, but its very iffy, when your commander has no eternal warrior despite being 2nd edition...looking at you Dante and MC. We even got our chaplain character ripped out of the codex....grrr.

Doctadeth wrote:Dark angels have to be the worst MEQ.

GW has taken out the fluff, and pretty much invalidated any reasons for DA to exist.

To be fair, it was a rather tenuous and forced reason to have their own book in the first place.

Vaktathi wrote:

Doctadeth wrote:Dark angels have to be the worst MEQ.

GW has taken out the fluff, and pretty much invalidated any reasons for DA to exist.

To be fair, it was a rather tenuous and forced reason to have their own book in the first place.

That could be said about every single one of the marine books. At the start of all of this, all BA had were fast rhinos and assault troops. Space Wolves had true grit and cheaper grey hunters. Black Templar had mixed squads that were effectively scouts + marines in one.

Wasn't until GW needed to introduce some new whacked out marine toy to boost sales that we have the issues we have today.

Nvs wrote:That could be said about every single one of the marine books.

Yes, yes it could couldn't it

I couldn't agree more.

I would have to agree my poor Deathguard are crying....CSM.....needs a new codex

mrblacksunshine_1978 wrote:I would have to agree my poor Deathguard are crying....CSM.....needs a new codex

Atleast your plague marines are still useful, my poor poor Emperor's Children and Daemonettes...

You forgot Necrons.

Chaos.

There simply isnt the variety needed, we have the worst dreadnoughts (seriously - why the utter nerf to them 3.5 to 4th ed? Bloodrage having no upside, and the utter fail that is fire frenzy...gah!) in the game, very overcosted plaguemarines (given the huge whack given to FNP in 5th) and bezerkers who, well, arent.

Wasn't the 3.5 codex considered grossly overpowered? So it makes sense that they'd overcompensate for that next time around*, to say nothing of it simply being outdated by this point.

*At least when someone other than Matt "It's Supposed to be Overpowered!" Ward is involved...

Mat Wards codexes arent overpowered, btw. BA, GK and SM are perfectly fine.

It wasnt gross, however the nerf to dreadnoughts made no sense.

Not at all true. Look at the ranknigs of BA and SM, and notice they are far behind SW and IG

All 3 dexes have good internal balance (very few dont touch or must haves) with good options that can create a variety of lists. There are no "I win" buttons in any of those books.

Compared to wolfstandardwolfcavlongfang spam and oh look, will it be 3x2 hydra or 2x2 and 1 manticore, triple vendetta vet spam IG today?

Oh wait, I just fed a troll. Damn

I wonder who voted BA and SW? I thought those where the top two of all marineyness.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Mat Wards codexes arent overpowered, btw. BA, GK and SM are perfectly fine.

It wasnt gross, however the nerf to dreadnoughts made no sense.

It was actually a reference to comments he made in regards to the fantasy daemons codex amounting to "yeah, it's supposed to be overpowered".