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why do word bearers excist? IDK about you, but every piece of background i have read shows the Word Bearers not able to do any thing...

iproxtaco wrote:Why do you two exist?

Why is the pope a catholic?

cheapbuster wrote:why do word bearers excist? IDK about you, but every piece of background i have read shows the Word Bearers not able to do any thing...

What background have you read? The Word Bearers Omnibus makes them look fairly effective, as does First Heretic, The Horus Heresy series in general, their Index Astartes entry too.

iproxtaco wrote:

cheapbuster wrote:why do word bearers excist? IDK about you, but every piece of background i have read shows the Word Bearers not able to do any thing...

What background have you read? The Word Bearers Omnibus makes them look fairly effective, as does First Heretic, The Horus Heresy series in general, their Index Astartes entry too.

They aren't exceptional warriors compared to say, the World Eaters or the Black Legion, Lorgar is still a Daemon Primarch, and the World Bearers are still Chaos Space Marines. They are however extremely powerful due to their close affinity with the powers of Chaos. The Dark Apostles especially, they are potent sorcerers and leaders of men. They have a War-Captain to do the commanding and tactical direction of the hosts, and a large number of Daemons to give them some extra muscle.

Right, put that in a quote box then if you want to quote me. I don't see the point in it but OK. I asked for the myriad of sources that make the Word Bearers look bad.

iproxtaco wrote:Right, put that in a quote box then if you want to quote me. I don't see the point in it but OK. I asked for the myriad of sources that make the Word Bearers look bad.

I never said Word Bearers looked bad, I have simply stated the OPPOSTIE and said that they are in fact a good leigion, so why are you accusing me of slating the Word Bearers?

Yeah, by quoting what I said in this, or another thread. Make your own statement.

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, by quoting what I said in this, or another thread. Make your own statement.

Fine, Word Bearers are a good chapter, GW just use them as an example of famous battles that they have lost in the SM codices. Just because that they are bad in the fluff of other dex's does not mean that they are terrible in the game, as they are one of the few legions that still operates as one whole legion and have a good pact with Daemons and field lots of lessers, greaters and possessed (But why bother with possessed )

True, fantastic models, useless in-game. I made the Gal Vorbak if anyone has read First Heretic, and beefed them up a little bit.

are you on a plane or boat or something, cause it said made in us on the first page and made in uk on the second?

I am in the Uk, and set it as that to start with, but for some reason it changed to the US, so I had to change it back.

teleported maybe ?

iproxtaco wrote:And beaten back by the Ultramarines, who outnumbered them. It also wasn't everything they had, Lorgar wasn't present along with however many he had with him.

It is stated that his Legion sailed against the Ultramarines "almost in its entirety", including the possessed warriors of the Gal Vorbak. Meanwhile, Ultramarines had a single expeditionary force in the Calth system, and are described as being "impossibly outnumbered", and they still hold out until the rest of their Legion arrives and routs the Word Bearers.

The Emperor said that he was a disappointment because Lorgar didn't want to be a warrior, 'manipulated weakling' wasn't even hinted at.

<snip> Kor-Phaeron, the First Captain, never let go of his ties to the Old Faith of Colchis, although he didn't know it was Chaos at the time. He encouraged Lorgar to seek answers. Lorgar basically took command after he learned of Chaos during his journey into The Eye of Terror. So, it was the Word Bearers who started the Heresy.

No, it's not hinted at. It's SPELLED OUT. The Emperor didn't express "disappointment", he called Lorgar a failure, that all his victories were hollow and all he accomplished was for naught. Lorgar himself admits he is inferior to his brothers in battle, in psychic power, and in military ability. He himself admits he had nothing to do with orchestrating the insurrection. We see several examples and instances of the other Primarchs basically seeing him as a weak, useless loser. Even Magnus, the only Primarch to actually like Lorgar judged him to be "casting about in ignorance, desperate for something, anything, to hear his prayers".

Lorgar was a frightened child all his life, plagued by nightmares since his pod was whisked away from the Emperor's laboratory, and all he wanted was someone to pat him on the head and tell him he's a good boy. So he kept around Kor Phaeron, a NON-ASTARTES. A human. Tell me, do you know of any other Primarch that was so unsure of himself that he let anyone refer to him as derisively as boy? Even the Emperor didn't take such liberties.

Fanaticism is bred into the Word Bearers' genes, and it's a safe assumption that this tendency is more pronounced among the Chaplains. So we add Erebus to the equation, who, and I quote, "drools in the presence of power". Fanaticism + hunger for power = super easy target for Chaos. Kor Phaeron and Erebus orchestrated the corruption of the other Legions by establishing warrior lodges/circles that bred discontent with the Emperor as a "non-warrior" and arranging for Horus to be wounded and Chaos-healed. And then Horus brought over the other Primarchs. Curze, Angron and Alpharius gladly joined him, Magnus damned himself, Mortarion pussied out while being lost warpspace, and Perturabo basically had no choice after he went apeshit on his own home planet.

Lorgar didn't do anything, anything, except doubt himself the entire time. After the Emperor left, he spent a month self-flagellating and wearing itchy underwear, while Erebus and Kor Phaeron tried to convince him not to be such a bitch about it. Then after they found the Eye and he got his first answers, he was all like, "Hell yeah! Hey guys, make Chaos happen while I'm gone!" and went off to wander around in the warp. Then he came back, again doubting the course of these actions and whether humanity was truly ready for such "horror", and Kor Phaeron and Erebus had to cajole him yet again. And then, at the pinnacle of the Istvaan Massacre, he is so distraught by what he sees, that he basically tries to kill himself by throwing himself at his brother Primarch, "We may have found gods to worship, but my death is my own! Waah!". He didn't even write the Book of Lorgar, since after their sojourn to the Eye, most of the passages and rituals were penned by the Chaplains! I wouldn't be surprised if his princehood consists of him brooding in his tower, doing penance over all his adoptive father and sons have wrought in his name, while the Ruinous Powers laugh and feed off his suffering. What a chump.

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The Word Bearers do deserve some credit, even though the core of the corruption came from the one member who wasn't an Astartes. After their rebuke they achieved compliance on a huge swath of worlds, all of which joined them in rebellion. But one of the most numerous Legions slaughtering indigenous populations is not particularly impressive. And their Chaplains possessed great guile and oratory skills, even if convincing a bunch of testosterone-laden brother-warriors that they should form fraternities doesn't sound particularly difficult. Still, even with those caveats, there is no denying that the Word Bearers got the Heresy ball rolling.

But as far as the OPs question is concerned, at the end of the day Astartes are but a reflection of their Primarch, and Lorgar was the weakest Primarch of them all.

An yet, this "The Word Bearers are rubbish" point is based solely on their Primarch being weaker than his brothers, and not from examples of the Word Bearers themselves, the Space Marines of the Legion, failing massively in their tasks.

You made a fantastic point Omegus, Lorgar, despite being a Primarch with a kick-ass Daemon form, was a bit whiny and childish in reality. However, we only have information on him at the start of The Heresy, the climax is still far-away, and Lorgar is currently described as doing some pretty destructive stuff during and after The Heresy to be made a Daemon Primarch.

iproxtaco wrote:An yet, this "The Word Bearers are rubbish" point is based solely on their Primarch being weaker than his brothers,

And a Daemon prince being a Daemon...

doesnt have the daemon special rule...

A non-existant unit has no rules of any sort, not that Special Rule: Daemon defines what a Daemon is.
And yes, Lorgar is now a Daemon.

One thing to remember about Ultramar is that it's plot armor is thicker than the whole of the Imperium of Man, lets face it, every Tyranid, Ork, and Necron could come to Ultramar and somehow fluff would have the Ultramarines win almost singlehandedly.




Edit:Spelling

True dat.

Omegus wrote:True dat.

Tis true.

Wardragoon wrote:One thing to remember about Ultramar is that it's plot armor is thicker than the whole of the Imperium of Man, lets face it, every Tyranid, Ork, and Necron could come to Ultramar and somehow fluff would have the Ultramarines win almost singlehandedly.

Touche, Ultramar is the Luke Skywalker of the Legion Realms <sigh>

Wardragoon wrote:One thing to remember about Ultramar is that it's plot armor is thicker than the whole of the Imperium of Man, lets face it, every Tyranid, Ork, and Necron could come to Ultramar and somehow fluff would have the Ultramarines win almost singlehandedly.




Edit:Spelling

What do you expect from an army of movie marines?

Nah the real movie marines are Alaric and his Grey Knights.

The Word Bearers in my opinion are awesome, I love their colors, but they are just used as a punching bag for any stupid chapter. (Funny I have yet to include them in my fluff, I only include the black legion and the Night Lords because I hated them the most.)

Not only that but they had such good plans though they started the heresy, they got beat-up really badly.

I just finished reading "Dark Apostle",and they weren't bad in that. In fact they kicked quite a serious amount of tail.

They had a Dreadnought that's still sane after 10,000 years.
An icon bearer that can warp back and forth from his Daemon form.
And the Dark Apostle himself was a cool character with the all holy scripture that I learned isn't a tattoo,but is in fact burned into their flesh as a gift of the Gods,since it's full of knowlegde.

A Dreadnought who is still sane? The only other one I've encountered was in Dead Sky Black Sun. I must have missed his sanity somehow. Must make this unit. Perhaps The Dreadnought's faith has kept him sane for all this time?

Malcharion was sane aswell.

I haven't read Soul Reaver yet, so I'm unaware of any other sane Chaos Dreadnoughts bar the two already mentioned.

Soul Reaver ?

Soul Hunter sorry, I typed the wrong thing despite it being right there in front of me.

Oh I see. I don;t want to spoil it for you but you are going to enjoy it alot I think.