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They either need to play up them having more advanced technology or lump them into the Vanilla codex with Sammial and Belial allowing their respective force to become troops.





They could give their Tac squads the ability to take 2 Plasma guns instead of 1 and a heavy weapon.


would illustrate their mobile nature in hunting the fallen.


maybe have Cypher as an HQ option that unlocks some unique options(and disqualifies you from taking any other named HQs) or special rules.



a Plasma Landraider. Twin Linked Plasma Sponsons instead of Lascannons.

maybe a Crusader version with Hurricane Plasma guns.



a "Hunt the Fallen" special rule. Nominate one enemy HQ, that model/unit is worth double Kill points in a KP mission. in objective missions he becomes an additional objective upon death.

Kanluwen wrote:Other than them having originally fielded Plasma Cannons in Tactical Squads, and suddenly every Space Marine can do such(which was a retcon on the rarity of plasma cannons, not Dark Angels' possessing tech no longer produced).

Which was a 3E only thing IIRC, other chapters could do so in 2E and every following edition.

The point. It goes over your head.

So explain then instead of vague ad hominem attacks.

Where did I actually say anything of that nature? I simply said that it would be an opportunity for them to be made unique by giving them items that the general Astartes don't have.

no, you pointed to a chapter stating it uses arms and armor no longer produced, which from the way the statement was in response to me talking about how powerful archeotech wasn't really something the DA's were about, read to imply that powerful archeotech is somehow involved.

It's flavor. Read: the thing that's missing from Dark Angels and making them unique.

And has no effect on gameplay and thus adds no functional flavor to how the army plays.

And? "All the other rules", while irrelevant to how the army played were relevant to the decision of giving the army its own book.

Most of those rules were from 3E, when it had already had a tradition of not being under C:Space Marines. They were rules for the sake of rules. Rules that are irrelevant to how the army plays or can be applied to many other armies just as easily, don't really enhance the flavor of the army and thus there is no point to having the army be its own distinct thing.

Again: archaic weapons do not necessarily mean advanced or powerful.

When you're talking about high RoF plasma weapons that don't overheat and scout squads with plentiful access to stalker pattern boltguns, that's pretty much exactly what it means.

It simply means something that is not commonly seen. There's nothing in the Dark Angels fluff precluding that. There's no retcon involved if it's explained as sections of The Rock which previously had been sealed were finally unsealed(whether through the Watchers in the Dark, Azrael and his kin finding information pointing to it from one of the Fallen interrogated or any number of factors) and discovered to be vaults of weapons thought to be lost to the Imperium.

And why would the DA's, above anyone else, have huge stockpiles of such weapons sitting around for 10,000 years? Additionally, with the timeline where it's at (they last few days of the 41st millenium) and the defiance by GW of going beyond that, it'd likely require a retcon. (unless we assume the DA's are now only ever fighting in the closing days of the storyline).

less reason for all this constant stupidity claiming that Dark Angels, who yes are "Codex" in their fighting methods and organizational methods(so are Blood Angels) should just be trashed.

Nobody is saying that they should be "trashed", unless you consider having to use another codex for the army (capable of making exactly or damn near exactly identical lists, often more competitively) "trashing" it. The point is that they should be amalgamted into C:SM, instead of having to go out of our way to imagine up reasons and likely retcon events to justify an army, that has every reason to be absorbed into another codex, to keep its own distinct book just for its own sake.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
For that matter: if we're going to talk about 'retconning' anything--let's remove freaking Mortis dreads from Codex: Space Marines

They're supposed to be a rare pattern, and something created by the Dark Angels.

Lets go a step farther and really just get rid of weapon simple swaps being justifications for "unique" chapter specific vehicles. Swapping a DCCW for an autocannon isn't exactly the most difficult or codex defying tasks to carry out, one will notice that the Predator Annihilator was never a SW specific vehicle even though they devised it first. (Note: my opinion of the Ironclad/Furioso is much the same) Though yes I will agree that it was rather silly that C: DA did not allow for this but C:SM did just a year and a half later.

vonjankmon wrote:The people who are saying that the DA are basically a codex adherant chapter are not familiar enough with the history of the DA in GW's universe.

They've got two entire companies that are totally non standard. The Deathwing and the Ravenwing.

Which are still not all that non-codex aside from being used en-masse in many cases instead of typically being parcelled out in support, and certainly not as divergent as the Iron Hands with little or no standard Codex organization. Aside from that, their other companies operate in a very codex fashion.

They also have a history beyond plasma

Which consistend entirely of PC's in tac squads, something that every other marine army could do in preceding editions and could do in all following editions.

in 3rd Ed of having more ancient equipment than most other chapters and they have a history of fighting beyond where any other chapter would have folded.

And so do half the other Space Marine chapters out there...such as the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Space Wolves...oh...

There was a time where stubborn tactical squads with Azrael and his helmet bearer (the original area invul save) were flanked by jinking Ravenwing bikes.

The mechanic for which has now been folded into the core bike rules.

the DAs have massive stockpiles of advanced weapons because they, being the 1st legion, got priority on recieving new equpment.

they also didn't get decimated in battle against Horus's traitors like the other legions did, so they didn't lose as much stuff.



they have more Terminator armor and Plasma weaponry then the other legions did.

Grey Templar wrote:the DAs have massive stockpiles of advanced weapons because they, being the 1st legion, got priority on recieving new equpment.

I don't recall this, where was this stated? (I honestly just haven't heard this or might just not recall it for some reason)

they also didn't get decimated in battle against Horus's traitors like the other legions did, so they didn't lose as much stuff.

They lost their homeworld and split their chapter in twain, they didn't exactly end up better off than anyone else, certainly not as well as the Ultramarines.

they have more Terminator armor and Plasma weaponry then the other legions did.

Is this in the codex? I don't recall seeing this.

its in their codex IIRC.

they might not have more Terminator armor then others any more. this would be due to the split of the legion.

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Other than them having originally fielded Plasma Cannons in Tactical Squads, and suddenly every Space Marine can do such(which was a retcon on the rarity of plasma cannons, not Dark Angels' possessing tech no longer produced).

Which was a 3E only thing IIRC, other chapters could do so in 2E and every following edition.

The point. It goes over your head.

So explain then instead of vague ad hominem attacks.

I actually meant to but, yeah.

The Consecrators are described as "all the brethren bore all manners of holy relics, and used the most ancient patterns of armour, weaponry, and vehicles. It was as if, the field notary commented, the Consecrators had inherited the most revered arms of the Dark Angels Legion, preserving them lovingly, and bearing them down the ages against the foes of the Lion.'
That's straight out of the Dark Angels Codex, page 75.

Where did I actually say anything of that nature? I simply said that it would be an opportunity for them to be made unique by giving them items that the general Astartes don't have.

no, you pointed to a chapter stating it uses arms and armor no longer produced, which from the way the statement was in response to me talking about how powerful archeotech wasn't really something the DA's were about, read to imply that powerful archeotech is somehow involved.

And as I said: archaeotech doesn't mean it has to be powerful. Your statement was using things like Umbra pattern bolters and Mk. III Iron Armor as examples. Incidentally, that's what the Consecrators actually have--plentiful vaults full of equipment from the Dark Angels Legion.

It's flavor. Read: the thing that's missing from Dark Angels and making them unique.

And has no effect on gameplay and thus adds no functional flavor to how the army plays.

So let's can Chaos Space Marines because they play like every other Marine army. Let's can Tau because they play like Eldar. Let's can Dark Eldar because they play like Tyranids.

Gameplay is inevitably going to be similar, especially with a book that was done as a half-cocked job like the DA book. And before you want to whine more about "has no effect on gameplay and adds no functional flavor to how the army plays"--Dark Angels was, until Codex: Space Wolves, the only Deathwing viable force.
Blame Phil Kelly for making Deathwing a far inferior option to stupid Loganwing.
Blame Mat Ward for making it so that Codex: Space Marines can essentially make a Ravenwing force.

And? "All the other rules", while irrelevant to how the army played were relevant to the decision of giving the army its own book.

Most of those rules were from 3E, when it had already had a tradition of not being under C:Space Marines. They were rules for the sake of rules. Rules that are irrelevant to how the army plays or can be applied to many other armies just as easily, don't really enhance the flavor of the army and thus there is no point to having the army be its own distinct thing.

Yes. Not being under C: Space Marines--just requiring it to work.

Again: archaic weapons do not necessarily mean advanced or powerful.

When you're talking about high RoF plasma weapons that don't overheat and scout squads with plentiful access to stalker pattern boltguns, that's pretty much exactly what it means.

Are you really saying that Stalker pattern boltguns are powerful? Really?

Yes, a high RoF plasma gun(as in the 24" S7 AP2 Rapid Fire weapon) on a Terminator platform that doesn't overheat is going to be so overpowered.

It simply means something that is not commonly seen. There's nothing in the Dark Angels fluff precluding that. There's no retcon involved if it's explained as sections of The Rock which previously had been sealed were finally unsealed(whether through the Watchers in the Dark, Azrael and his kin finding information pointing to it from one of the Fallen interrogated or any number of factors) and discovered to be vaults of weapons thought to be lost to the Imperium.

And why would the DA's, above anyone else, have huge stockpiles of such weapons sitting around for 10,000 years? Additionally, with the timeline where it's at (they last few days of the 41st millenium) and the defiance by GW of going beyond that, it'd likely require a retcon. (unless we assume the DA's are now only ever fighting in the closing days of the storyline).

Why wouldn't they?
The Dark Angels, while being relatively active, don't engage in these idiotic kinds of 'Last Stands' like the various Astartes Legions have been.
They haven't had to rebuild entire companies from scratch. They haven't lost entire Successor Chapters to mutations or going renegade. If there's any founding Legion that might still have stockpiles of equipment cached somewhere across the galaxy, it's the DA.

less reason for all this constant stupidity claiming that Dark Angels, who yes are "Codex" in their fighting methods and organizational methods(so are Blood Angels) should just be trashed.

Nobody is saying that they should be "trashed", unless you consider having to use another codex for the army (capable of making exactly or damn near exactly identical lists, often more competitively) "trashing" it. The point is that they should be amalgamted into C:SM, instead of having to go out of our way to imagine up reasons and likely retcon events to justify an army, that has every reason to be absorbed into another codex, to keep its own distinct book just for its own sake.

Actually that's exactly what you're saying. Your idea is that they should be "amalgated" into Codex: Space Marines "instead of having to go out of our way to imagine up reasons and likely retcon events to justify an army, that has every reason to be absorbed into another codex, to keep its own distinct book just for its own sake." Fact is, there's no "going out of our way" to imagine up these reasons. It took me all of five minutes to come up with a workable concept. It took me another three minutes to come up with a half-decent 'retcon'(because clearly, Grey Knights should have their own book just like the Inquisition and Adeptus Mechanicus--never fething mind they'd all play like existing ones, right?) that makes the Dark Angels fresh and unique--and what's more, gives them something that currently DOES NOT EXIST. There is no Chapter that is sitting on caches of weapons that date back to the Great Crusade. There are Chapters that hunt them out, but they obviously haven't found them.

Quite frankly though there's absolutely no bloody reason whatsoever that the things that made Dark Angels unique should have been put into the following Codices(Space Marines getting Mortis dreads and Ravenwing equivalents, Space Wolves getting a better version of Deathwing, Grey Knights getting an even better version of Deathwing--and what's more, the freaking abilities that Belial allows for in the banner and apothecary).
But that's exactly what happened, and now people use it as some ridiculous reasoning to put Dark Angels into the Codex: SM book.

If Dark Angels had gotten any freaking development time, period then things would have been drastically different. They did not.
All that was done was essentially a copy/paste of the minidex's fluff, adding in a few Successor Chapters(The Consecrators, Guardians of the Covenant, and Disciples of Caliban were the only new DA Successors introduced in the book. The others existed in the minidex from 3rd edition), Deathwing Terminators were restricted to 5 models(why the hell was this done anyways. So dumb.) and Scouts were moved to Elite from their previous spot as Troops(again: why? who the feth thought this was a good idea?).

For that matter: if we're going to talk about 'retconning' anything--let's remove freaking Mortis dreads from Codex: Space Marines

They're supposed to be a rare pattern, and something created by the Dark Angels.

Lets go a step farther and really just get rid of weapon simple swaps being justifications for "unique" chapter specific vehicles. Swapping a DCCW for an autocannon isn't exactly the most difficult or codex defying tasks to carry out, one will notice that the Predator Annihilator was never a SW specific vehicle even though they devised it first. (Note: my opinion of the Ironclad/Furioso is much the same) Though yes I will agree that it was rather silly that C: DA did not allow for this but C:SM did just a year and a half later.

Vaktathi if you're going to quote me at least address all my points instead of cherry picking the few parts of sentences that support you.

The first company and Ravenwing are not just "support elements" they are core to the DA. Also the first company is WAY off of standard company organization. First it's much much much larger, encompassing any DA who has been let in on the secret in some way shape or form. The fluff and rules for the Dark Angels having more terminator armor was set in 2nd Ed with their first codex. (Angels of Death, shared it with BA)

Vaktathi wrote:

vonjankmon wrote:The people who are saying that the DA are basically a codex adherant chapter are not familiar enough with the history of the DA in GW's universe.

They've got two entire companies that are totally non standard. The Deathwing and the Ravenwing.

Which are still not all that non-codex aside from being used en-masse in many cases instead of typically being parcelled out in support, and certainly not as divergent as the Iron Hands with little or no standard Codex organization. Aside from that, their other companies operate in a very codex fashion.

If you want to make this argument from the perspective of how unique a chapter is as to whether it deserves a codex, the BA would lose theirs first, the only divergent thing about them is their squads of crazy marines. I think we can drop the roll them into the SM argument as that is not going to happen, that never happens but the opposite of new chapters getting their own book does.

Vaktathi wrote:

They also have a history beyond plasma

Which consistend entirely of PC's in tac squads, something that every other marine army could do in preceding editions and could do in all following editions.

Again you obviously don't know what the DA were like in 2nd Edition before GW began dulling them down. They had all kinds of special rules to represent how different they were from the other marine chapters. Just because you are ignorant of the history of them and have only been exposed to them in their more recent heavily dumbed down version does not make that the only thing that ever existed. The whole Plasma Cannons in the Tac squad thing was actually a drastic retcon for the DA and had and I believe still has no fluff at all to support it. I outlined a bunch of special rules and things that they had beyond the Plasma Cannons in my post, you just choose to ignore them.

Vaktathi wrote:

in 3rd Ed of having more ancient equipment than most other chapters and they have a history of fighting beyond where any other chapter would have folded.

And so do half the other Space Marine chapters out there...such as the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Space Wolves...oh...

No, no the other chapters don't. The DA fluff from the VERY VERY beginning before they even had a codex, so Rogue Trader era has been that they will fight beyond the point at which every other marine chapter would fall back. So much so that their 2nd Ed codex made it easy, cheap, and provided multiple ways to make your entire army stubborn. It IS a defining aspect of the Dark Angels, again just because you are not familiar with their original fluff and older rules does not make it not so.

Vaktathi wrote:

There was a time where stubborn tactical squads with Azrael and his helmet bearer (the original area invul save) were flanked by jinking Ravenwing bikes.

The mechanic for which has now been folded into the core bike rules.

Sorry, no again. They used to be able to go fast and avoid shooting, the rules are drastically different now than in 2nd Edition so you couldn't do the same thing.

You can disagree with me all you want but I'm telling you that it is a fact that much of what you are saying is incorrect. I understand why you think it though, it has been a long long long time since the DA were a unique force, something like 15 or so years. (Anyone remember when Angels of Death came out? I'm not at home to check the copy write date) But I also view this as the reason why they should be made into a unique force again, not a reason to just roll them into Codex: SM.

*Edit* Totally forgot something I wanted to address. The Plasma thing like I mentioned it totally off the way, chalk it up to GW not wanting to invest the same amount of time they did for 2nd Ed. The DA do have more suits of Terminator Armor than other chapters, it's been mentioned in fluff a lot, as far as I know they've never outlined why specifically but the idea that they don't take part in last stands is totally WRONG. Again this is from the more recent fluff that frankly is few, far between, and crappy. The Deathwings Bone colored armor is a result of one of those last stands! The DA also did not come out of the Heresy any better off than the other chapters since a large portion 1/4+ turned traitor at the end of it and attacked the returning rest of the fleet causing mass devestation on both sides. They may have come out a tiny bit better all things considered but not so much that it would make a huge difference in my opinion. The DA also have a rich history of being technologically advanced, they've created several different space ships (Check out Battlefleet Gothic SM ship histories) and they created the Command Rhino variant (name escaping me right now) among other things. In thinking about it this might have been where the whole plasma thing kind of came from for them.

Double Zing!

I see no problem with having multiple Marine books. Dark Angels have quite clearly had a lot of their originality ret-conned or made unoriginal by putting it in another book.

Can we all mellow the hell out and discuss fluff points without insults or slams?

Kanluwen wrote:I actually meant to but, yeah.

The Consecrators are described as "all the brethren bore all manners of holy relics, and used the most ancient patterns of armour, weaponry, and vehicles. It was as if, the field notary commented, the Consecrators had inherited the most revered arms of the Dark Angels Legion, preserving them lovingly, and bearing them down the ages against the foes of the Lion.'
That's straight out of the Dark Angels Codex, page 75.

Ok, it's interesting and rather cool, but then wouldn't it be the Consecrators and not the Dark Angels as the Archeotech chapter?

And as I said: archaeotech doesn't mean it has to be powerful. Your statement was using things like Umbra pattern bolters and Mk. III Iron Armor as examples. Incidentally, that's what the Consecrators actually have--plentiful vaults full of equipment from the Dark Angels Legion.

How does that transfer into being unique on the table however? Such items don't really have any functional gameplay differences.

So let's can Chaos Space Marines because they play like every other Marine army. Let's can Tau because they play like Eldar. Let's can Dark Eldar because they play like Tyranids.

Chaos Space Marines have pre-heresy weapons, organization, and wargear along with dedicated Cult troops and the gifts of the Chaos gods, and lack much of the post heresy vehicles and weapons and wargear. Tau really don't play much like Eldar aside from troops in Skimmers (of different Speed types). How do DE play like Tyranids? they have neither the numbers, the tough units, or masses of MC's and Tyranids don't have the shooting, skill stats, speed, vehicles or mobility of the DE.

Gameplay is inevitably going to be similar, especially with a book that was done as a half-cocked job like the DA book. And before you want to whine more about "has no effect on gameplay and adds no functional flavor to how the army plays"--Dark Angels was, until Codex: Space Wolves, the only Deathwing viable force. Blame Phil Kelly for making Deathwing a far inferior option to stupid Loganwing.
Blame Mat Ward for making it so that Codex: Space Marines can essentially make a Ravenwing force.

Right it was, but that was a rather forced differential. It's simple FoC swaps. It's not something that should warrant its own book. If it's so easily ported to other books that share 80/90%+ of the same units/wargear/rules, then...

Yes. Not being under C: Space Marines--just requiring it to work.

True, the fact that the army could function that way probably means it doesn't need its own book any more than Catachans needed a different book from Codex: Imperial Guard.

Are you really saying that Stalker pattern boltguns are powerful? Really?

Compared with normal boltguns or sniper rifles they are.

Yes, a high RoF plasma gun(as in the 24" S7 AP2 Rapid Fire weapon) on a Terminator platform that doesn't overheat is going to be so overpowered.

You didn't specify that. You said "a faster cycling plasma gun that doesn't overheat". That implies higher RoF than a standard plasma gun. That said, so basically it's just a plasma gun that doesn't overheat...

Why wouldn't they?
The Dark Angels, while being relatively active, don't engage in these idiotic kinds of 'Last Stands' like the various Astartes Legions have been.

So wait...sorry I've got two different argumentative opponents telling me two different things. According to 2E/3E fluff and what vonjankmon is saying, DA's are famously stubborn, refusing to retreat even when other Astartes would. But they don't engage in 'Last Stands' at the same time...

I has a confused.

They haven't had to rebuild entire companies from scratch.

After the Siege of Vraks, they certainly took enough casualties to probably require that. IIRC they lost nearly 1/3rd of the Chapter on Vraks.

They haven't lost entire Successor Chapters to mutations or going renegade.

Aside from half the original Legion of course...

Actually that's exactly what you're saying. Your idea is that they should be "amalgated" into Codex: Space Marines "instead of having to go out of our way to imagine up reasons and likely retcon events to justify an army, that has every reason to be absorbed into another codex, to keep its own distinct book just for its own sake." Fact is, there's no "going out of our way" to imagine up these reasons. It took me all of five minutes to come up with a workable concept. It took me another three minutes to come up with a half-decent 'retcon'(because clearly, Grey Knights should have their own book just like the Inquisition and Adeptus Mechanicus--never fething mind they'd all play like existing ones, right?)

Inquisition and AdMech would play like existing armies? Only if done poorly. Grey Knights really shouldn't have had their own book, they are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus, they should be part of an Ordo Malleus army, not their own thing, but alas...the things that come to pass...

Either way, the retcon amounts to "suddenly, masses of new (for the game at least and probably for the DA's since none were alive to have ever heard of this stuff) weapons for a ten millienia old group of warriors adherent to an ancient code dictating their equipment and fighting practices!". It may just be that I'm too damn cynical and a bitter stick in the mud, that's entirely possible, but that sounds sorta silly.

that makes the Dark Angels fresh and unique--and what's more, gives them something that currently DOES NOT EXIST. There is no Chapter that is sitting on caches of weapons that date back to the Great Crusade. There are Chapters that hunt them out, but they obviously haven't found them.

Potentially, but then it's like "they had this crap gathering dust for longer than current recorded human history right under their feet...and all of a sudden *now* realize it...?"

In this case, why wouldn't the Chaos Space Marines have such equipment? Their fluff going back several editions has stated they make widespread use of ancient weapons and equipment, in 2E it was the CSM's that had more capable plasma weapons than the Imperium, taking the trade off of increased likelyhood of blowing up for more consistent firepower until they just made all Plasma weapons the Chaos ones in the switchover to 3E.

Quite frankly though there's absolutely no bloody reason whatsoever that the things that made Dark Angels unique should have been put into the following Codices(Space Marines getting Mortis dreads and Ravenwing equivalents, Space Wolves getting a better version of Deathwing, Grey Knights getting an even better version of Deathwing--and what's more, the freaking abilities that Belial allows for in the banner and apothecary).
But that's exactly what happened, and now people use it as some ridiculous reasoning to put Dark Angels into the Codex: SM book.

To be honest however, it was always rather forced. I totally see where its frustrating and annoying, don't get me wrong, but it was always a very artificial reason for the DA's to have their own book.

If Dark Angels had gotten any freaking development time, period then things would have been drastically different. They did not.

We really don't know how much development time the last DA book got. It likely wasn't trivial given the massive changes they made to the book from the Space Marine armies of the preceding 9 years. Now, how it turned out wasn't exactly optimal by any means, but in terms of time invested, I'd wager they got their fair share, just not a great result.

All that was done was essentially a copy/paste of the minidex's fluff, adding in a few Successor Chapters(The Consecrators, Guardians of the Covenant, and Disciples of Caliban were the only new DA Successors introduced in the book. The others existed in the minidex from 3rd edition), Deathwing Terminators were restricted to 5 models(why the hell was this done anyways. So dumb.) and Scouts were moved to Elite from their previous spot as Troops(again: why? who the feth thought this was a good idea?).

And Combat Squads, frag/krak/pistol on all marines, Captains that came with Iron Halos as standard equipment, significantly recosted vehicles, etc. DA's were a major organizational change for SM armies.

Look at Codex: Space Marines, huge chunks of that fluff are directly copy/pasted from 2E C:UM. They do that with lots of books.

quote]
Again: this is what I'm calling shenanigans on. There's this stupid idea floating around that Dark Angels since they play like everyone else, they shouldn't have their own book. That's simply not the case.

if they play like everyone else...why do they need their own book? Why is that stupid?

Until C: SM or SW--Dark Angels were unique.

Only because of hamfisted FoC swaps that were restricted to DA's simply for the sake of providing something unique when there are plenty of other instances of other armies fielding similar forces at times.

The problem is that Dark Angels was relegated to being a 'test' bed for a great many of the ideas that were later put into those codices.
I mean hell, Codex: Grey Knights has what was previously a DA only thing(Terminator Command Squad) for their bloody Elite Terminator squad choice.

paladins are a wee bit more different than that, though yes they share some similarities. I have lots of issues with how the GK book turned out, but lets leave that for another thread.

vonjankmon wrote:
The first company and Ravenwing are not just "support elements" they are core to the DA.

I didn't say they were just "support elements".

Also the first company is WAY off of standard company organization. First it's much much much larger, encompassing any DA who has been let in on the secret in some way shape or form.

Is it larger? I don't have the codex in front of me but from what I recall from Angels of Death it didn't seem any larger than other 1st company outfits.

The fluff and rules for the Dark Angels having more terminator armor was set in 2nd Ed with their first codex. (Angels of Death, shared it with BA)

Yes I have it somewhere, just not in front of me. What page is it on so I can look it up? I seem to remember a bit about having enough to outfit their entire first company with terminator armor, but while rare, isn't completely unheard of amongst other chapters IIRC. Certainly not now with the Grey Knights kicking around as an entire terminator armored chapter.

vonjankmon wrote:
If you want to make this argument from the perspective of how unique a chapter is as to whether it deserves a codex, the BA would lose theirs first, the only divergent thing about them is their squads of crazy marines.

I don't disagree at all there.

I think we can drop the roll them into the SM argument as that is not going to happen, that never happens but the opposite of new chapters getting their own book does.

The topic is "can/how dark angel be fixed". I'm arguing that there's nothing wrong except that they don't need their own book.

Vaktathi wrote:
Again you obviously don't know what the DA were like in 2nd Edition before GW began dulling them down. They had all kinds of special rules to represent how different they were from the other marine chapters.

I like how you say I "obviously" don't know. Every army had whacky crazy rules in 2E, DA's weren't all that whackier or anything. Certainly less so compared with the Ultramarines than say...the Thousand Sons compared with the World Eaters or Night Lords who all have always shared the same book.

Just because you are ignorant of the history of them and have only been exposed to them in their more recent heavily dumbed down version does not make that the only thing that ever existed.

Hooray assumptions and Ad Hominem attacks!

The whole Plasma Cannons in the Tac squad thing was actually a drastic retcon for the DA and had and I believe still has no fluff at all to support it. I outlined a bunch of special rules and things that they had beyond the Plasma Cannons in my post, you just choose to ignore them.

You outlined stuff that "could be done" for a future codex. I was addressing their past.

No, no the other chapters don't. The DA fluff from the VERY VERY beginning before they even had a codex, so Rogue Trader era has been that they will fight beyond the point at which every other marine chapter would fall back. So much so that their 2nd Ed codex made it easy, cheap, and provided multiple ways to make your entire army stubborn. It IS a defining aspect of the Dark Angels, again just because you are not familiar with their original fluff and older rules does not make it not so.

And again, fluff for many chapters has them all being stubborn and hell and completely unwilling to ever give ground. I've read what you're talking about, it's really not very different from the epic stubborness of just about every other marine chapter out there now. Does anyone expect the Black Templars or Space Wolves to every give ground or fall back? Not really. The fluff for Space Marines in general at this point is so exaggerated that making the DA's even stubbornier than stubborn SM's really doesn't mean much.

Sorry, no again. They used to be able to go fast and avoid shooting

So...turboboosting...

the rules are drastically different now than in 2nd Edition so you couldn't do the same thing.

They also had their jinking rules in 3E IIRC, which are identical or almost so to the current Turboboost rules.

You can disagree with me all you want but I'm telling you that it is a fact that much of what you are saying is incorrect. I understand why you think it though, it has been a long long long time since the DA were a unique force, something like 15 or so years. (Anyone remember when Angels of Death came out? I'm not at home to check the copy write date) But I also view this as the reason why they should be made into a unique force again, not a reason to just roll them into Codex: SM.

I've got the book at home, I've read it, sorry I can't recall everything in perfect detail but at the same time many of the arguments here apply to just about every 2E codex. Even in 2E, they weren't all *that* different from the core Ultramarines book (neither were BA's who also got rather heavily revised last year unnecessarily) they had a few extra quirks worthy of a WD addendum and that's about it.

The DA also have a rich history of being technologically advanced, they've created several different space ships (Check out Battlefleet Gothic SM ship histories) and they created the Command Rhino variant (name escaping me right now) among other things. In thinking about it this might have been where the whole plasma thing kind of came from for them.

They've definitely got some cool things, but unfortunately so many are common platforms (damocles rhino IIRC) or were simple enough to begin with (mortis dreads) as such that they shouldn't just be DA specific or just aren't applicable to tabletop 40k (BFG stuff). It's also not like many other chapters however don't have their own records of techonological innovation, even the silly Space Puppies made Predator Annihilator.

IMHO it'd be best to avoid discussing whether or not they should be scrapped as a separate Codex. We know GW won't do that and it doesn't exactly 'fix'/'solve' the DA problem. I'd say it'd be better to try and think of how they could warrant their own Codex, rather than try to argue that they don't.

I too could argue that DA don't warrant their own Codex, but that's something that won't happen, hence I believe it would be better to discuss how they could warrant their own Codex whilst staying true to their typical nature.

I love their terminator rules, makes for a lot of interesting loadouts. I have no idea how Ravenwind is different than say Khan- White Scars.

Kanluwen wrote:
Other than them having originally fielded Plasma Cannons in Tactical Squads, and suddenly every Space Marine can do such(which was a retcon on the rarity of plasma cannons, not Dark Angels' possessing tech no longer produced).

While we're on the subject of things only the Dark Angels had before that everyone else has now:

1. Twin-gun Dreadnoughts.
2. Terminator Armys.
3. Bike Armys.
4. Assault Cannons and Heavy Bolters on Land Speeders.
5. Plasma Cannons in Tactical Squads.
6. Strength 6 power weapons.
7. Strength 4 Shotguns on Scouts.

I really don't like the idea of them having a lot of ancient tech to be honest. If we were going to give an army a lot of heresy era toys (the generic type toys that would be common on the battlefield) I'd rather see it with Chaos. They already have the reapers instead of assault cannons for example.

As for Dark Angels, there are a lot of things that could be done. They could expand on the terminator theme by placing a terminator option in every slot of the codex.

HQ could have the normal stuff we see now, but also a 1-3 HQ option where they could split off and join any unit you wanted similar to how Haemonculi work. They could then give that unit things like FnP, reroll hit/wound, etc.

Elites could be veterans, in units of 3-5 with a generic stat increase and any wargear option similar to trueborn. Perhaps stormshield + assault cannon.

Troops could be you generic terminators like we have now.

FA could be given teleporters which gives them a 12" assault move, but can't use it 2 turns in a row. Give them a 24" assault move once a game that disallows further 12" assault moves.

Heavy could be each with a cyclone + 1 in every 3 guys could have a cannon, heavy flamer, etc.

You could then do something similar to this with bikes.

The only problem with doing something like the above is you're really turning them away from Dark Angels and instead into a termi or biker army. The above should blend well with standard marine choices too.

Some other highlights are:

Mortis Dreads
Chaplain Dread
Inner Circle unit
Unique land raider with plasma cannons
rerollable deepstrike or teleport homers free on everything
First and only SM chapter with a titan (retcon!)
Jetbikes
Plasma without gets hot.
Robes of the Council which gives things a 5++

I mean there's tons to go on. But if I had to choose between GW abolishing all seperate SM books and instead making a Codex: Adeptus Astartes or a unique DA book? The choice is obvious.

Give devastators the ability to split fire base line with their sergeant upgrade. Allow tactical marines to get jump packs for +X, terminator armor for +XX. A veteran unit that if your HQ is a librarian they become grey nights (special character then makes them a troop), chaplains come in 1-3 choice and act like priests and can join units. Elite Scouts that join units of marines. You see where I'm going.

There's really nothing in all the marine books that warrant them being their own. The few things that do exist that are unique likely shouldn't have been made in the first place.

Nobody is saying that they should be "trashed", unless you consider having to use another codex for the army (capable of making exactly or damn near exactly identical lists, often more competitively) "trashing" it. The point is that they should be amalgamted into C:SM, instead of having to go out of our way to imagine up reasons and likely retcon events to justify an army, that has every reason to be absorbed into another codex, to keep its own distinct book just for its own sake.

Interestingly enough, by your logic, the Blood angels should have been folded into C:SM, they were just as bland as DA before thier new codex, the only real addition being Assault squads as troops and elites, and a two units that were really regular units with an extra attack and some minor special rules.

Ratbarf wrote:

Nobody is saying that they should be "trashed", unless you consider having to use another codex for the army (capable of making exactly or damn near exactly identical lists, often more competitively) "trashing" it. The point is that they should be amalgamted into C:SM, instead of having to go out of our way to imagine up reasons and likely retcon events to justify an army, that has every reason to be absorbed into another codex, to keep its own distinct book just for its own sake.

Interestingly enough, by your logic, the Blood angels should have been folded into C:SM, they were just as bland as DA before thier new codex, the only real addition being Assault squads as troops and elites, and a two units that were really regular units with an extra attack and some minor special rules.

Yes I think they should have folded BA's into C:SM and still think they should do so, though that's a different (if related) topic.

Nvs wrote:I really don't like the idea of them having a lot of ancient tech to be honest. If we were going to give an army a lot of heresy era toys (the generic type toys that would be common on the battlefield) I'd rather see it with Chaos. They already have the reapers instead of assault cannons for example.

Except the Reaper during the Heresy and Great Crusade era wasn't "generic type toys". Even during the Heresy and Great Crusade--Reapers were fairly rarely put out. Most units had combi-bolters of some form.

Hell, Terminator armor during the Great Crusade/Heresy wasn't even that common.

The point of giving the stuff to the Dark Angels is that, unlike the Chaos Marines, the gear would not be altered by time exposed to the warp or degraded over time by juryrigged repair after repair.
Most of the Chaos tech we see is just barely recognizable as its original form.

Don't forget that the CSM's took half the mechanicus with them, and are not bound by the stifling confines of the loyalist Mechanicus or even physical laws of reality in many cases. Many CSM's would have access to competent technical resources and even manufacturing facilities.

I stopped reading a few posts into this, and appologize. However, I really even as a Dark Angels player wish they would just merge them into Codex Marines, include the special characters in the codex marines like they do the others, and have those special characters offer the force their uniquness, like all the other ones do. As long as Dark Angels are a seperate book they are going to continuously play the leap frog arms race with ever other codex. Right now they're still marginally sub par to codex marines. They'll get a new book and be the new flavor of the month, then a few months later people will be QQing they're not OP enough anymore.

Personally I wish GW would just do this with all, and by all I mean Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, etc. chapters and focus on getting other races up to snuff like Tao and Necrons to keep the overall game balanced instead of focusing on a single chapter. I honestly get tired of just seeing marine armies on the table. Make the marine book a little thicker include a special section for seperate chapters and rules and call it good. You can do this and still keep the chapters unique. The only thing that seperates each codex is seriously a pages worth of text anyway.

As for lore, the Dark Angels have some of the best lore in the game. If you're asking for something to make them unique, you obviously haven't read the current codex. The history of the First Founding is one of the most "tragic" next to Horus himself.

Vaktathi wrote:Don't forget that the CSM's took half the mechanicus with them, and are not bound by the stifling confines of the loyalist Mechanicus or even physical laws of reality in many cases. Many CSM's would have access to competent technical resources and even manufacturing facilities.

Exactly. There's a similar issue going on in that CSM players want every single thing that C: SM players have.

This isn't necessary. The armies are not the same, nor would the methodology be the same. Stop stifling things, embrace more shenanigans.

Tielc wrote:As long as Dark Angels are a seperate book they are going to continuously play the leap frog arms race with ever other codex. Right now they're still marginally sub par to codex marines. They'll get a new book and be the new flavor of the month, then a few months later people will be QQing they're not OP enough anymore.

I'd suggest you go back and read the entire thread then. Nobody is complaining about how Dark Angels need X to be competitive.

This entire thread is about "how can we make Dark Angels different and unique enough to merit their own book".
The fluff is good, but it's relatively underwhelming compared to the Space Wolves (a well done example of this. Blood Angels and Grey Knights are not), especially in terms of how the fluff has transferred to the tabletop. Everything the Dark Angels had to make them unique has been doled out everywhere else--from their unique pattern of Dreadnought(the 'Rifleman') to their unique Deathwing(which can be done by Space Wolves and two separate lists can be done using the same idea for the Grey Knights) and Ravenwing(can be done by Codex: Space Marines) formations.

Personally I wish GW would just do this with all, and by all I mean Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, etc. chapters and focus on getting other races up to snuff like Tao and Necrons to keep the overall game balanced instead of focusing on a single chapter.

This is a bull excuse. Dark Angels and Black Templars when they were given their own full sized Codices had seemingly very little in the way of development time and quite frankly they had very little done in terms of actually trying to do anything with them. They basically were given a few signature units and then it was the end of a work day.

I honestly get tired of just seeing marine armies on the table.

...Which has absolutely nothing to do with the number of books. It has everything to do with the player perception and the environment of the rules. When Necrons are released, you'll likely see a huge upspike in their numbers because they will be the "new big thing".

Make the marine book a little thicker include a special section for seperate chapters and rules and call it good. You can do this and still keep the chapters unique. The only thing that seperates each codex is seriously a pages worth of text anyway.

Fallacy. Simply "making the book a little thicker" will do nothing other than start up xenos players whining that they have a smaller book and don't get X variant list when Marines get Y, Z, and W FOR FREE.

The thing that is never considered by this ridiculous idea is that some people have absolutely no interest, whatsoever, in playing Y and Z, but only W.
If they released a $50 book that allowed me to field a Codex Marines force, a Wolves, Black Templar, Blood Angels, or Dark Angels force--I'd just sell my Dark Angels. Feth that noise. I don't want to lug around a bigger book just because you want my book removed from the development cycle or you have some ridiculous notion that the number of books.

If I have to pay more for a Codex and only use 25% of it, it's only 'fair' that Dark Eldar, Eldar, and Tau are rolled into a single book. It's only 'fair' that Necrons, Orks, and Tyranids are lumped into one book as well.

Settle down there Kanluwen, breath into the paper bag.

If they merged all the space marine books into a single codex, I highly doubt it would just be a hard cover version with 6 chapters, one dedicated to each codex. It's likely it would be 1 chapter devoted to nothing but the fiction for each founding chapter, and a single one devoted to rules that allowed players to make a list to whichever background attracts them.

But all that said, I don't think anyone expects GW to do this, but Dark Angels players are legitimately concerned because not only is their book going to be last and come out on another edition change that will no doubt spell doom for them yet again. But they're also concerned that at this point, it would be too easy for GW to just write them off and make them the new codex marines.

Dark Angels would be the army I played if I collected marines. The few marine models I have just to have are all painted up as dark angels. So yea, I'd love for them to get their own codex again.

But at the same time, I'm also finding myself agreeing with the other camp that this game as a whole would be much better served with a single book dedicated to space marines. Dark Angels players clearly not. But 40k players as a whole? Certainly.

Nvs wrote:Settle down there Kanluwen, breath into the paper bag.

You want to see me riled up? Because this isn't anywhere near riled up.

This thread always attracts the same people, continually stating the same idea of simply that Dark Angels, as they are now, can be merged into Codex Space Marines. Of course they bloody can, the Dark Angels book was seemingly used as the "trial" Codex: Space Marines.

Quite frankly, I'm not opposed to the idea of Marines being done in a series of books. The problem is simply that every solution I hear is the same one, pettishly being done because "why should there be so many Marine books".

If they merged all the space marine books into a single codex, I highly doubt it would just be a hard cover version with 6 chapters, one dedicated to each codex. It's likely it would be 1 chapter devoted to nothing but the fiction for each founding chapter, and a single one devoted to rules that allowed players to make a list to whichever background attracts them.

Yes. Because that's a wonderful solution.

Maybe we should just go back to everyone getting a three or four page spread in the main rulebook for an army list. I mean hey, then we don't need background and nobody can whine about their army being given a "backseat to Marines"(which is utter and complete garbage).

But all that said, I don't think anyone expects GW to do this, but Dark Angels players are legitimately concerned because not only is their book going to be last and come out on another edition change that will no doubt spell doom for them yet again. But they're also concerned that at this point, it would be too easy for GW to just write them off and make them the new codex marines.

No. We're really not. I could care less of a feth about how well my army does. I want something unique and my own again. Everything that made Dark Angels unique has been given to everyone else. Deathwing and Ravenwing, previously the signature formations of Dark Angels, are available in 3 different books as of now. The Mortis pattern Dreadnought, a Dark Angels creation, is available to every very nearly every Marine book out there...except Dark Angels. For feth's sake, Grey Knights can take the Mortis pattern.

Dark Angels would be the army I played if I collected marines. The few marine models I have just to have are all painted up as dark angels. So yea, I'd love for them to get their own codex again.

There has only been one time where they did not have their own Codex. And they shared it with Blood Angels.

But at the same time, I'm also finding myself agreeing with the other camp that this game as a whole would be much better served with a single book dedicated to space marines. Dark Angels players clearly not. But 40k players as a whole? Certainly.

And the other camp is solidly ignoring the facts laid out against the idea every time. The idea that it will somehow "save on development time" is asinine.
The development time for books and models would still be there, for all the Chapters involved, it just would be for a single book rather than spread out over years like it is now.

I said it once, I'll say it again. Dark Angels got screwed. It's the only reason why we get this constant stream of crap about how they can be "rolled into the main Codex with no work". If any amount of actual work had been done, if any amount of development in regards to the background was done, or if anyone even asked Forge World "Hey guys, wanna come help with Dark Angels?"--there would be no issue.

Kanluwen I am with Nvs here in that as a Dark Angels player I would be dissapointed surely by not having my own codex. I think it would be awesome to have special rules. It would be great to be special and unique, and have specialized units. I agree 100% with this. Where I agree with Nvs is the community as a whole would benefit much more from resources being spent on other races, other models, new rules, etc. I didn't mean to say screw Dark Angels, again that's what my force is. I'm just saying we wouldn't be paying more for weapons choices and units if we were launched with Codex Marines. As it stands right now, unless I'm playing a pure Deathwing or Ravenwing force I'm going to use Codex Marines anyway. In doing so I don't have any special characters, besides renaming the existing ones and using them as Dark Angels. I also despise more than anything reading through my Dark Angels Codex and having to constantly refer to the Space Marine Codex anyway. And then that codex had me refer to the rulebook (a different issue completely I know, but annoying none the less).

Tielc wrote:Kanluwen I am with Nvs here in that as a Dark Angels player I would be dissapointed surely by not having my own codex. I think it would be awesome to have special rules. It would be great to be special and unique, and have specialized units. I agree 100% with this. Where I agree with Nvs is the community as a whole would benefit much more from resources being spent on other races, other models, new rules, etc.

I do not know how I can put this any more bluntly. There would be no change, at all, in how the development cycle would work if this change went through. The writers aren't actually going "Okay here's a Marine book, here's a Xenos book". They're going "Here's a 40k book, here's a Fantasy book, here's something for Lord of the Rings".
Don't believe me? Look at the last 40k book that Robin Cruddance did(Tyranids) and then the book he did after that(Tomb Kings).

I didn't mean to say screw Dark Angels, again that's what my force is. I'm just saying we wouldn't be paying more for weapons choices and units if we were launched with Codex Marines.

Quite frankly, the reason we were paying more for weapons choices and units was because there was a bad case of stupid going around the design studio when DA was done. They had intended on trying to "liven up the next edition" and make Marines a bit more 'powerful' but also pointed more heavily.

They backed down on that not long afterwards. The FAQ that was released and is available as a download from GW's site fixes some of those issues, but it doesn't fix the majority of the case of stupid that resulted in a codex that had very little thought put into it.

As it stands right now, unless I'm playing a pure Deathwing or Ravenwing force I'm going to use Codex Marines anyway. In doing so I don't have any special characters, besides renaming the existing ones and using them as Dark Angels.

The Dark Angels book has virtually no special characters worth taking anyways, besides the ones that unlock Deathwing or Ravenwing. That's another example of the "case of the stupids" I mentioned.

I also despise more than anything reading through my Dark Angels Codex and having to constantly refer to the Space Marine Codex anyway.

...Are you using the old minidex or something? Because nowhere in the Andy Hoare/Jervis Johnson book does it tell you to "refer to the Space Marine Codex".

And then that codex had me refer to the rulebook (a different issue completely I know, but annoying none the less).

Every codex has something that requires you to "refer to the rulebook". The universal special rules are something that you eventually learn well.

Kanluwen, you're seriously underestimating the benefits. If we ignore every benefit aside from typical codex creep that occurs between marine books that come out back to back, it would be worth it.

Players also have the advantage of not needing to learn 3 sets of rules for the same general unit.

And since we're obviously not following each other's arguments well I want to spell it out as clearly as possible.

I am in no way saying that the Dark Angels codex should be removed. They deserve their own. The only way I'd say losing the Dark Angels codex would be a reasonable option would be if we also lost the space wolves, blood angels, black templar, grey knights, and ultramarines codex.

I don't think anyone in here is trying to argue everyone but the dark angels codex should remain. I'm confident when the Dark Angels book is redone, they'll have something unique to call their own. But I'm also convinced the book will be an utter failure due to 6th edition coming right around the corner and half the rules team working for GW rather write their books to 1-up the previous book that came out than build a balanced book.

Well here is my attempt to put thing on track.

Thoughts
Azrael: Command Squad with “Relic Blades”

Belial: Terminator Command Squad with “Relic Blades”, Deathwing as Troops
Sammael: Hoverbike or Land Speeder Command Squad [Mix], Ravenwing as Troops

Ezekiel/Librarians: More and better Powers

Interrogator Chaplin Character: Dread??

Deathwing Terminators: I like basically, though I do like the Idea of allowing “Relic Blades” as an Option, maybe for Sergeants. Maybe a Heavy Plasma Weapon similar to the Tau one. And make them Stubborn not Fearless.

Veteran Squads: Keep the Mix of Sternguard and Vanguards, up to 4 Special Heavy Weapons, No Jump Packs for Heavy Weapons.

Scouts I like the “Patter Bolt Gun” as an Upgrade

Tactical Squads: Do something similar to the Space Wolves, but make it Heavy Weapon instead of Special Weapons

Assault Squads: Relic Blade for the Sergeant

Ravenwing: For every 5th an Attack Bike and no Speeders, Plasma Cannon as an Option

Land Speeder: Plasma Cannon as an Option

Devastator Squad: Re-Roll Gets hot? Plasma Guns as an option?, Relentless???

Land Raider: Sponsons Plasma Cannons

Predator: Plasma Cannon options

Razorback: Plasma Cannon Option

A lot of this came from an old DA Thread that suggested that the DA should be different form the others by making the a shooty Army

I would love if the Dark Angels became the Marine shooting army instead of being heavily based around assault like Space Wolves or Blood Angels and Grey Knights to a lesser extent.

Deathwing: Seargent has a Relic blade basic, squad can take a sword and shield option. Command squad can take all Relic Blades.

Ravenwing: Give them Expert Rider, Bring back Jinking, Give us Landspeeder Storms that drop Battlebrothers in scout armour.

Tac Squads: Make them shoot! Not sure how this should be done, I'ld prefer mobile shootyness to static gunline but if either worked I would love it. I'm sick and tired of having to bring knives to gunfights.

Dreads: Give us Mortis dreads in the Heavy Slot.

Scouts: Make them troops again please, with an upgradable Seargent Naaman.

Devs: give us some kind of plasma heavy bolter?

Nvs wrote:Kanluwen, you're seriously underestimating the benefits. If we ignore every benefit aside from typical codex creep that occurs between marine books that come out back to back, it would be worth it.

Er, what? The "typical codex creep that occurs between marine books" isn't actually as big as you might think. The only real example of this is...interestingly enough from Dark Angels to Space Marine.

Players also have the advantage of not needing to learn 3 sets of rules for the same general unit.

Lolwat? You don't need to learn 3 sets of rules for the "same general unit". Terminators, no matter what, have the same basic statline. The only thing that feasibly changes are army wide rules.
Scouts, no matter what, have the same basic statline--and the same basic rules.
The only thing that changes from army to army are various weapon loadouts.

And since we're obviously not following each other's arguments well I want to spell it out as clearly as possible.

No offense, but you're not really making an "argument". You're essentially theorizing statements that have no real basis.

I am in no way saying that the Dark Angels codex should be removed. They deserve their own. The only way I'd say losing the Dark Angels codex would be a reasonable option would be if we also lost the space wolves, blood angels, black templar, grey knights, and ultramarines codex.

And again, you're ignoring the statement I'm making. The only people who would be interested in a 'combined' Marine codex are the people who play FoTM forces--and to a lesser extent, people with their own custom Chapters that amount to FoTM(You know "that guy". When Space Wolves came out, everything was suddenly wolfy. When Blood Angels came out, suddenly they're 'Space Vamps' and now with Grey Knights out--they're suddenly all psykers). There is no benefit and nothing but downside for both GW and the folks who actually have dedicated Marine armies for specific Chapters.

I shouldn't be punished for having a dedicated Dark Angels force like the suggestion of a single Marine dex really amounts to. I don't run C: SM, Wolves, or Blood Angels. My Blades of Caliban aren't suddenly going to be changing their rules sets.

I don't think anyone in here is trying to argue everyone but the dark angels codex should remain.

There's no reason, at all, for people to be posting in here with statements like "The Dark Angels Codex should be removed". It's asking for trouble. The whole point of the thread is "how can we make it work" not "come in here to complain about Marines having more than one book".

I'm confident when the Dark Angels book is redone, they'll have something unique to call their own.

You'd think so, but oh what do you know...everything that was unique and something for the Dark Angels to call their own...has been shared out.

But I'm also convinced the book will be an utter failure due to 6th edition coming right around the corner and half the rules team working for GW rather write their books to 1-up the previous book that came out than build a balanced book.

Your first part is slightly right. Any Codex that comes out at the tail end of one edition and isn't written with any feasible changes in mind usually ends up having an issue. Dark Angels (like Chaos Space Marines) suffered from that--and the simple fact that they were planning some grand, new vision of 40k. That vision fell flat on its face, was beaten over the head with a chair while unconscious on the ground, and then had the plug pulled.

The second part isn't actually true. Codex creep is inevitable, sure--but it's a fallacy to say that everything is done strictly to "one up" another book.

Ratbarf wrote:I would love if the Dark Angels became the Marine shooting army instead of being heavily based around assault like Space Wolves or Blood Angels and Grey Knights to a lesser extent.

You haven't played many SW armies lately have you? Between krak missiles and Lascannons, the last one I played had 26 long range AT guns, plus another 23 meltaguns, combi-meltas and TL'd plasma guns, with a rune priest toting Living Lightning and JotWW as well. Currently, oddly enough, SW's are probably the shootiest SM's in the game (Hooray for balance!). Make an SM army shootier than that and I don't know why someone would play IG, and I'd dread what Tau would look like to be able to claim "shootiest army" title when they get redone

The best fix for DA (and BA, SW, and every other individual chapter) would be to move to a small PDF-based codex.

That way, GW could update them more regularly without having to go through the red tape, production and distribution costs, etc of putting out a paper codex. The smaller codex would use Codex: SM as a backbone, while still adding and changing things to make each chapter unique.