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I'm sure this has been discussed before, (in that case link me to the discussion) But with several marine books allowing Terminator/Deathwing Lists, and other books allowing Ravenwing/Biker lists, what could really be done to a new Dark Angel dex that would allow it to be unique? Outside of making a special rule for wearing robes/cloaks on the battlefield. Thoughts?

I think the greater question is, given that the sole justification for a DA book has been simple FoC swaps and their fluff states pretty clearly they are a very codex adherent chapter, why is a distinct and separate Dark Angels book required? Other than making one simply out of inertia because they've had one in the past.

I guess you could always make them a plasma spam chapter and create a slew of random special rules for bikes and terminators, but basically at that point you're exaggerating operational *preferences* into major fundamental diversions simply for its own sake.

Vaktathi wrote:I think the greater question is, given that the sole justification for a DA book has been simple FoC swaps and their fluff states pretty clearly they are a very codex adherent chapter, why is a distinct and separate Dark Angels book required? Other than making one simply out of inertia because they've had one in the past.

I guess you could always make them a plasma spam chapter and create a slew of random special rules for bikes and terminators, but basically at that point you're exaggerating operational *preferences* into major fundamental diversions simply for its own sake.

You're missing what is the best possibility for the Dark Angels now.

We've got Space Wolves being the 'Noble Savage' archetype, the Blood Angels being the 'Maddened Slayer', the Black Templars being the 'Crusading Knight', the standard Codex: Space Marines being the baseline, and now Dark Angels could be given something truly unique to separate them from the pack while still retaining their Codex adherence.

What is that "something truly unique", aside from the once but no longer unique Ravenwing or Deathwing?
The opportunity for Dark Angels to retain some precious archaeotech that the other Chapters no longer have.
Terminators taking to the field with an archaic plasma repeater(faster cycling plasma gun that doesn't overheat) as a squad support weapon.
Scouts with Stalker pattern Boltguns rather than Sniper Rifles, Land Speeders with Conversion Beamers.

The possibilities are endless for Dark Angels to be made into something unique. They're The First Legion, after all. They're supposed to have tons of old tech still maintained in perfect working order just locked away.

My one big thing though is I'd want Thunder Hammers gone and replaced with some kind of unique blade that has a similar effect. Aesthetic reasons, y'see.

deleted due to the humour police getting handbags at the ready

Stella Cadente - if you've nothing to contribute, it is often best to not post in a thread.

Kanluwen wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I think the greater question is, given that the sole justification for a DA book has been simple FoC swaps and their fluff states pretty clearly they are a very codex adherent chapter, why is a distinct and separate Dark Angels book required? Other than making one simply out of inertia because they've had one in the past.

I guess you could always make them a plasma spam chapter and create a slew of random special rules for bikes and terminators, but basically at that point you're exaggerating operational *preferences* into major fundamental diversions simply for its own sake.

You're missing what is the best possibility for the Dark Angels now.

We've got Space Wolves being the 'Noble Savage' archetype, the Blood Angels being the 'Maddened Slayer', the Black Templars being the 'Crusading Knight', the standard Codex: Space Marines being the baseline, and now Dark Angels could be given something truly unique to separate them from the pack while still retaining their Codex adherence.

What is that "something truly unique", aside from the once but no longer unique Ravenwing or Deathwing?
The opportunity for Dark Angels to retain some precious archaeotech that the other Chapters no longer have.
Terminators taking to the field with an archaic plasma repeater(faster cycling plasma gun that doesn't overheat) as a squad support weapon.
Scouts with Stalker pattern Boltguns rather than Sniper Rifles, Land Speeders with Conversion Beamers.

The possibilities are endless for Dark Angels to be made into something unique. They're The First Legion, after all. They're supposed to have tons of old tech still maintained in perfect working order just locked away.

My one big thing though is I'd want Thunder Hammers gone and replaced with some kind of unique blade that has a similar effect. Aesthetic reasons, y'see.

Now I've never been one for the many Space Marine books, but I like this a lot. The idea of Dark Angels being the archaeotech chapter... this has got serious potential. Alternate FoC would be the icing on the cake here.

And of course, what makes the Dark Angels being the 'archaeotech Chapter' even better?

Gives people a list to work from if they want to do a real 'Crusade Era' Astartes force.

Kanluwen wrote:And of course, what makes the Dark Angels being the 'archaeotech Chapter' even better?

Gives people a list to work from if they want to do a real 'Crusade Era' Astartes force.

Well, damn. I wish GW thought like this. What am I saying, I wish GW though, full stop.

What kind of archaeotech would be appropriate? And how ubiquitous? I would suggest trading out Thunderhammers for Relic Blades in all cases. Not super powerful, but as you say, aesthetically pleasing. Plasma and hover technology are the two techs I associate most with Dark Angels and pre-fall Imperium, so those would be the obvious place to start. I like the plasma-repeater you mentioned, and the stalkers and Landversion Speamers.

I would say things like:
The predecessor to the Assault Cannon, the 'Reaper' Autocannon for Terminators would be unique to see in a Loyalist force.
Maybe some unique Dreadnought loadouts (a sword and shield dreadnought? Yes please...)
Or hell, my idea of how the Dreadknight could have been(a psychically controlled kind of 'warjack' that Librarians control and fight alongside of) would be something unique.

I wouldn't go into jetbike squadrons though. The one that Sammael has is supposed to be 'one of the last surviving examples'--and it'd take one heck of a retcon for that to be overturned.

For that matter, I'd alter up how the Ravenwing/Deathwing FOCs come about. Rather than being named characters, I'd give them titles to make them 'generic' characters so it becomes a bit easier to work them into Successor Chapters. Maybe something like:
'Foeseeker' for Sammael's Ravenwing list, and 'Redemptor' for Belial's FOC.

I think the DA FAQ fixed them just fine.

Chamleoneyes wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed before, (in that case link me to the discussion) But with several marine books allowing Terminator/Deathwing Lists, and other books allowing Ravenwing/Biker lists, what could really be done to a new Dark Angel dex that would allow it to be unique? Outside of making a special rule for wearing robes/cloaks on the battlefield. Thoughts?

Eliminate the codex and declare them "Green Marines?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vaktathi wrote:I think the greater question is, given that the sole justification for a DA book has been simple FoC swaps and their fluff states pretty clearly they are a very codex adherent chapter, why is a distinct and separate Dark Angels book required? Other than making one simply out of inertia because they've had one in the past.

I guess you could always make them a plasma spam chapter and create a slew of random special rules for bikes and terminators, but basically at that point you're exaggerating operational *preferences* into major fundamental diversions simply for its own sake.

Indeed.

coolyo294 wrote:I think the DA FAQ fixed them just fine.

That's not what he's asking. He's asking what can be done to make Dark Angels worth considering as a separate book.

Kanluwen wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I think the greater question is, given that the sole justification for a DA book has been simple FoC swaps and their fluff states pretty clearly they are a very codex adherent chapter, why is a distinct and separate Dark Angels book required? Other than making one simply out of inertia because they've had one in the past.

I guess you could always make them a plasma spam chapter and create a slew of random special rules for bikes and terminators, but basically at that point you're exaggerating operational *preferences* into major fundamental diversions simply for its own sake.

You're missing what is the best possibility for the Dark Angels now.

We've got Space Wolves being the 'Noble Savage' archetype, the Blood Angels being the 'Maddened Slayer', the Black Templars being the 'Crusading Knight', the standard Codex: Space Marines being the baseline, and now Dark Angels could be given something truly unique to separate them from the pack while still retaining their Codex adherence.

What is that "something truly unique", aside from the once but no longer unique Ravenwing or Deathwing?
The opportunity for Dark Angels to retain some precious archaeotech that the other Chapters no longer have.
Terminators taking to the field with an archaic plasma repeater(faster cycling plasma gun that doesn't overheat) as a squad support weapon.
Scouts with Stalker pattern Boltguns rather than Sniper Rifles, Land Speeders with Conversion Beamers.

The possibilities are endless for Dark Angels to be made into something unique. They're The First Legion, after all. They're supposed to have tons of old tech still maintained in perfect working order just locked away.

My one big thing though is I'd want Thunder Hammers gone and replaced with some kind of unique blade that has a similar effect. Aesthetic reasons, y'see.

Interesting idea (of course all the other players will clamor for same).
Give them jetbikes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FLuffwise potentially start a Cypher faction or something of that sort.

Frazzled wrote:
Interesting idea (of course all the other players will clamor for same).
Give them jetbikes.

Screw 'em. Deathwing is already doable with two other Codices, which actually do it better than Dark Angels.
Ravenwing is doable by the standard C: SM which again does it better than Dark Angels.

And jetbikes really are something that should remain as a 'hero' piece.

Kanluwen wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:I think the greater question is, given that the sole justification for a DA book has been simple FoC swaps and their fluff states pretty clearly they are a very codex adherent chapter, why is a distinct and separate Dark Angels book required? Other than making one simply out of inertia because they've had one in the past.

I guess you could always make them a plasma spam chapter and create a slew of random special rules for bikes and terminators, but basically at that point you're exaggerating operational *preferences* into major fundamental diversions simply for its own sake.

You're missing what is the best possibility for the Dark Angels now.

We've got Space Wolves being the 'Noble Savage' archetype, the Blood Angels being the 'Maddened Slayer', the Black Templars being the 'Crusading Knight', the standard Codex: Space Marines being the baseline, and now Dark Angels could be given something truly unique to separate them from the pack while still retaining their Codex adherence.

What is that "something truly unique", aside from the once but no longer unique Ravenwing or Deathwing?
The opportunity for Dark Angels to retain some precious archaeotech that the other Chapters no longer have.
Terminators taking to the field with an archaic plasma repeater(faster cycling plasma gun that doesn't overheat) as a squad support weapon.
Scouts with Stalker pattern Boltguns rather than Sniper Rifles, Land Speeders with Conversion Beamers.

The possibilities are endless for Dark Angels to be made into something unique. They're The First Legion, after all. They're supposed to have tons of old tech still maintained in perfect working order just locked away.

My one big thing though is I'd want Thunder Hammers gone and replaced with some kind of unique blade that has a similar effect. Aesthetic reasons, y'see.

I like this. A lot. GW, you listening? Hire this guy!

Sure, give HBMC more reason to tease me here.

The problem with making them the "archeotech" chapter is that it's not really something they have ever been. Yeah, they're the first Legion, but only by a few years, over decades such distinctions are relatively meaningless in terms of equipment and operation, and certainly over millenia they would mean nothing aside from honorifics, especially with actual archeotech hunting chapters out there. There really isn't anything in the DA background that's ever really supported them as being such a chapter, you'd be redefining them simply for the sake of retaining a distinct book. Their archetype has always been the "Dark Monks with a Dark Secret" which does not require a distinct codex, it has never been stockpiles of rare and arcane weaponry. That's not what defines them. About the only thing that even vaguely resembles this was that they could have plasma cannons in tac squads in 3E when others could not, but that was the *only* edition where other marines could not. To make them the "archeotech" chapter, you'd have to go about re-writing their fluff, at which point...would they really be Dark Angels still? Redefining an army simply to justify retaining its own codex feels rather silly, you're re-writing the army just to continue the momentum, which sorta defeats the point. Better to combine them with another army and give them their due there and then devote the development and marketing resources towards other projects.

Kanluwen wrote:

Frazzled wrote:
Interesting idea (of course all the other players will clamor for same).
Give them jetbikes.

Screw 'em. Deathwing is already doable with two other Codices, which actually do it better than Dark Angels.
Ravenwing is doable by the standard C: SM which again does it better than Dark Angels.

And jetbikes really are something that should remain as a 'hero' piece.

I hear you, but you know how it is.
I put forward jetbikes as thats straight out of RT era. Its something quite unique and the retcon is nothing in today's GW.

I do like the concept brought up to make them like a Heresy era force. One might truly go for that, and note it in the front. "As the first chapter they have old tech and old ways, and as such this list is ideally suited for those wishing to represent a typical Heresy Era force."

Go back to 2nd ed on the plasma front with your concept. Plasma cannons may rapid fire without Gets hot or heavy blast with gets hot (or even drop the gets hot rule with the new DA rule "our crap actually works")

coolyo294 wrote:I think the DA FAQ fixed them just fine.

Seconded. I played TWO DA players at my last tourney.

I agree that "superior technology" is the last vestige of Dark Angels culture that hasn't been co-opted by other marine chapters already.

Frazzled wrote:Go back to 2nd ed on the plasma front with your concept. Plasma cannons may rapid fire without Gets hot or heavy blast with gets hot (or even drop the gets hot rule with the new DA rule "our crap actually works")

While they didn't blow up, couldn't they only fire every other turn, with the Chaos heresy-era plasma weapons that could fire rapidly with the chance to blow up?

Vaktathi wrote:The problem with making them the "archeotech" chapter is that it's not really something they have ever been. Yeah, they're the first Legion, but only by a few years, over decades such distinctions are relatively meaningless in terms of equipment and operation, and certainly over millenia they would mean nothing aside from honorifics, especially with actual archeotech hunting chapters out there. There really isn't anything in the DA background that's ever really supported them as being such a chapter, you'd be redefining them simply for the sake of retaining a distinct book. Their archetype has always been the "Dark Monks with a Dark Secret" which does not require a distinct codex, it has never been stockpiles of rare and arcane weaponry. That's not what defines them. About the only thing that even vaguely resembles this was that they could have plasma cannons in tac squads in 3E when others could not, but that was the *only* edition where other marines could not. To make them the "archeotech" chapter, you'd have to go about re-writing their fluff, at which point...would they really be Dark Angels still? Redefining an army simply to justify retaining its own codex feels rather silly, you're re-writing the army just to continue the momentum, which sorta defeats the point. Better to combine them with another army and give them their due there and then devote the development and marketing resources towards other projects.

What 'archeotech hunting Chapters'? I'm drawing a complete blank on these. I'm not drawing a blank, however, on xenotech hunting Chapters though. There's also the Relictors, who aren't looking for archaeotech--but rather are looking for daemonic or corrupted equipment. There's a difference there.

You're also ignoring the entire description of the Dark Angels Successor Chapter, the 'Consecrators', which in every reported sighting by Imperial forces are using arms and armour no longer produced.

Where do you think that gear came from?

And seriously. It took me five minutes to 'redefine' the army in such a way that it becomes something unique, but still retains the fluff of 'Dark Monks with a Dark Secret' (which is the most simplistic and halfarsed way to say it, I think. There was more going on there than that. Even in the little mini-DA Codex, there was unique rules in effect. Things like restrictions on Dark Angels in an army that contains detachments with Ogryns, Ratlings, or any non-human race. Or, of course, the "may not include any allies from the Heroes of the Imperium list" outside of special scenarios. Let's also not forget 'Intractable' across the entirety of the army, barring The Ravenwing).
Adding onto the fluff doesn't necessarily require a retcon. It's a fallacy to assume that it does.

Frazzled wrote:Fluffwise potentially start a Cypher faction or something of that sort.

As to the Cypher faction bit--that would be a bit harder to justify one way or the other. There was never really an organized 'Cypher faction' even when Cypher was a character in Codex: Chaos Space Marines. He just was a cool character who basically allowed you to say your army was 'Fallen Angels'.

If something were to be done with him, it could be more in C:CSM and have him basically as an archetype for an Alpha Legion styled force.

Vaktathi wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Go back to 2nd ed on the plasma front with your concept. Plasma cannons may rapid fire without Gets hot or heavy blast with gets hot (or even drop the gets hot rule with the new DA rule "our crap actually works")

While they didn't blow up, couldn't they only fire every other turn, with the Chaos heresy-era plasma weapons that could fire rapidly with the chance to blow up?

In actuality they could fire every turn at a target. However if you let them charge (every other turn) they could fire a blast template. That Gets Hot nonsense did not exist IIRC.

Frazzled wrote:

Vaktathi wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Go back to 2nd ed on the plasma front with your concept. Plasma cannons may rapid fire without Gets hot or heavy blast with gets hot (or even drop the gets hot rule with the new DA rule "our crap actually works")

While they didn't blow up, couldn't they only fire every other turn, with the Chaos heresy-era plasma weapons that could fire rapidly with the chance to blow up?

In actuality they could fire every turn at a target. However if you let them charge (every other turn) they could fire a blast template. That Gets Hot nonsense did not exist IIRC.

You do RC. I like the idea of old tech performing like 2nd ed. tech. Seems somehow appropriate.

Yeah, it was at a higher strength and longer range if fired on "high power".

Kanluwen wrote:What 'archeotech hunting Chapters'? I'm drawing a complete blank on these. I'm not drawing a blank, however, on xenotech hunting Chapters though. There's also the Relictors, who aren't looking for archaeotech--but rather are looking for daemonic or corrupted equipment. There's a difference there.

So we'll have chapters that hunt alien tech, chapters that hunt daemon tech, and old tech, whatever, they hunt for advanced and powerful technology. There are other, more noted, tech hunting chapters out there. Advanced tech isn't really something the DA's have ever really been about. That's not what makes them different from other chapters. There's really nothing in their fluff that states they have more advanced stuff than the Ultramarines or Iron Hands or Salamanders or Relictors, etc.

You're also ignoring the entire description of the Dark Angels Successor Chapter, the 'Consecrators', which in every reported sighting by Imperial forces are using arms and armour no longer produced.

So we're basing the Dark Angels on a Successor Chapter now?

I don't have my book in front of me as I'm at work, and I can't recall every tiny detail about the DA's (or any army) at a whim, so It's not like I'm ignoring this stuff (I'm just not capable of remembering every tiny reference in every book off the top of my head). However, by the same token, just because its no longer produced doesn't mean its more powerful or whatnot. Mk. III Iron Armor isn't produced either, neither are Umbra pattern bolters, but are still in use by some chapters, that doesn't make it rare and powerful archeotech.

And seriously. It took me five minutes to 'redefine' the army in such a way that it becomes something unique, but still retains the fluff of 'Dark Monks with a Dark Secret' (which is the most simplistic and halfarsed way to say it, I think. There was more going on there than that. Even in the little mini-DA Codex, there was unique rules in effect. Things like restrictions on Dark Angels in an army that contains detachments with Ogryns, Ratlings, or any non-human race. Or, of course, the "may not include any allies from the Heroes of the Imperium list" outside of special scenarios. Let's also not forget 'Intractable' across the entirety of the army, barring The Ravenwing).

And many other armies at that time had small flavor rules like that as well. it's not like they have any impact on how the army plays. The rules do not support DA's allying with IG so the exclusion on Ogryns is irrelevant.

Their big thing was always wrathful monks hunting their fallen bretheren to erase their shame. Dark Monks with a Dark Secret. All the other rules (like no allying with abhumans for instance) played into the paranoia/supremacy theme and were largely irrelevant to how the army played.

The "intractable" thing was there for what...one edition? And could have been applied just as well to dozens of other chapters?

Adding onto the fluff doesn't necessarily require a retcon. It's a fallacy to assume that it does.

Except that in this case you're taking what has been very plainly stated as a Codex adherent chapter that plays mostly by the rules organized more closely to the Codex Astartes than many C:SM chapters, with no real hint of presence of such advanced weapons in Angels of Death or their 3E/4E books, and suddenly differentiating them on the basis of having advanced, non-codex weaponry and equipment. That's a retcon.

Frazzled wrote:(or even drop the gets hot rule with the new DA rule "our crap actually works")

Awww, if only I sigged things!

Vaktathi wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:What 'archeotech hunting Chapters'? I'm drawing a complete blank on these. I'm not drawing a blank, however, on xenotech hunting Chapters though. There's also the Relictors, who aren't looking for archaeotech--but rather are looking for daemonic or corrupted equipment. There's a difference there.

So we'll have chapters that hunt alien tech, chapters that hunt daemon tech, and old tech, whatever, they hunt for advanced and powerful technology. There are other, more noted, tech hunting chapters out there. Advanced tech isn't really something the DA's have ever really been about. That's not what makes them different from other chapters. There's really nothing in their fluff that states they have more advanced stuff than the Ultramarines or Iron Hands or Salamanders or Relictors, etc.

Other than them having originally fielded Plasma Cannons in Tactical Squads, and suddenly every Space Marine can do such(which was a retcon on the rarity of plasma cannons, not Dark Angels' possessing tech no longer produced).

You're also ignoring the entire description of the Dark Angels Successor Chapter, the 'Consecrators', which in every reported sighting by Imperial forces are using arms and armour no longer produced.

So we're basing the Dark Angels on a Successor Chapter now?

The point. It goes over your head.

I don't have my book in front of me as I'm at work, but just because its no longer produced doesn't mean its more powerful or whatnot. Mk. III Iron Armor isn't produced either, neither are Umbra pattern bolters, but are still in use by some chapters, that doesn't make it rare and powerful archeotech.

Where did I actually say anything of that nature? I simply said that it would be an opportunity for them to be made unique by giving them items that the general Astartes don't have.

And seriously. It took me five minutes to 'redefine' the army in such a way that it becomes something unique, but still retains the fluff of 'Dark Monks with a Dark Secret' (which is the most simplistic and halfarsed way to say it, I think. There was more going on there than that. Even in the little mini-DA Codex, there was unique rules in effect. Things like restrictions on Dark Angels in an army that contains detachments with Ogryns, Ratlings, or any non-human race. Or, of course, the "may not include any allies from the Heroes of the Imperium list" outside of special scenarios. Let's also not forget 'Intractable' across the entirety of the army, barring The Ravenwing).

And many other armies at that time had small flavor rules like that as well. it's not like they have any impact on how the army plays. The rules do not support DA's allying with IG so the exclusion on Ogryns is irrelevant.

Yawn. There's also nothing in the rules saying that Eldar can't ally with Dark Eldar. Would people do it? Likely not.

It's flavor. Read: the thing that's missing from Dark Angels and making them unique. The majority of Codex Chapters would have no problem doing that, nor working alongside the Inquisition when asked to and getting nothing in return.

Their big thing was always wrathful monks hunting their fallen brethren to erase their shame. Dark Monks with a Dark Secret. All the other rules (like no allying with abhumans for instance) played into the paranoia/supremacy theme and were largely irrelevant to how the army played.

And? "All the other rules", while irrelevant to how the army played were relevant to the decision of giving the army its own book.

Adding onto the fluff doesn't necessarily require a retcon. It's a fallacy to assume that it does.

Except that in this case you're taking what has been very plainly stated as a Codex adherent chapter that plays mostly by the rules organized more closely to the Codex Astartes than many C:SM chapters, with no real hint of presence of such advanced weapons in Angels of Death or their 3E/4E books, and suddenly differentiating them on the basis of having advanced, non-codex weaponry and equipment. That's a retcon.

I imagine a guy standing right now saying 'Zing!' like Randy from My Name is Earl. Youtube it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUUtLvOVljY

The people who are saying that the DA are basically a codex adherant chapter are not familiar enough with the history of the DA in GW's universe.

They've got two entire companies that are totally non standard. The Deathwing and the Ravenwing. They also have a history beyond plasma in 3rd Ed of having more ancient equipment than most other chapters and they have a history of fighting beyond where any other chapter would have folded. Just because GW has dumbed them down horribly in 4th and 5th edition does not mean they aren't a unique chapter.

There was a time where stubborn tactical squads with Azrael and his helmet bearer (the original area invul save) were flanked by jinking Ravenwing bikes.

As for what can be done. Make the Ravenwing more than teleport homer delivery boys. They're supposed to be some of the best Space Marine bikers there ever was, not normal bikers with a teleport homer strapped to their bike. Put the option back in to upgrade Sergeants to make squads stubborn. Expand equipment choices when they are items that are old, terminator equipment, Plasma weapons, relic weapons, etc.

The suggestion of a Cypher based DA is also a great one.