Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

what do you mean?


that IS established fluff.

That the Emperor and Malcador are the same entity? No, it isn't. There is no hard evidence, just un-based speculation.

I know there isn't anything to suggest that they are the same, but they could be.



its well within the Emperor's abilities to have a puppet.

It's all well and fine to have a theory, but where do you get it from? What facts did you interpret to create this theory?

Malcador sure seems to know alot about whats happening around the galaxy.


sure, he is also a powerful psyker.





do you have any evidence which says he couldn't be a puppet for the emperor?

Grey Templar wrote:
do you have any evidence which says he couldn't be a puppet for the emperor?

You can't use a lack of evidence against your theory as evidence to support your theory.

don't discount the possability.


I am not the OP. I didn't come up with this idea.


Malcador sure has alot of secrets going on.



I am simply saying he could be the Emperor controlling another body.


you can't say "No way, absolutly not"



there is circumstantial evidence that could be explained by "He's just a Powerful Psyker" and could also be explained by "He's the Emperor controlling a 2nd body"

Grey Templar wrote:don't discount the possability.

Why would the Emperor waste his own energy to protect the human section of the Webway, while he was fighting Horus?

That doesn't make sense.

The fact that Malcador is no where near as powerful as The Emperor. He burned out of The Golden Throne when the Emperor survived.
The fact that they are nearly always together. First Heretic, the fact that Malcador is nearly always at Terra, with The Emperor.
The Fact that they have appeared in the same place at the same time. First Heretic, the council at Nicea.
The fact that they refer to each other as separate people. Both First Heretic and A Thousand Sons, Malcador speaks of The Emperor as a separate entity.
The fact that they have spoken as separate people with different levels of reasoning and authority, and also views. Malcador can't convince Lorgar when The Emperor can. During Nicea, where The Emperor has to make a final ruling, when Malcador doesn't.
The fact that Magnus sees them as separate despite being a more accomplished Psyker than Malcador.

Nerivant wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:don't discount the possability.

Why would the Emperor waste his own energy to protect the human section of the Webway, while he was fighting Horus?

That doesn't make sense.

Perhapps the webway will come into play later, IMO there was a reason, perhapps something is going to happen and the webway becomes important.

iproxtaco wrote:The fact that Malcador is no where near as powerful as The Emperor. He burned out of The Golden Throne when the Emperor survived.
The fact that they are nearly always together. First Heretic, the fact that Malcador is nearly always at Terra, with The Emperor.
The Fact that they have appeared in the same place at the same time. First Heretic, the council at Nicea.
The fact that they refer to each other as separate people. Both First Heretic and A Thousand Sons, Malcador speaks of The Emperor as a separate entity.
The fact that they have spoken as separate people with different levels of reasoning and authority, and also views. Malcador can't convince Lorgar when The Emperor can. During Nicea, where The Emperor has to make a final ruling, when Malcador doesn't.
The fact that Magnus sees them as separate despite being a more accomplished Psyker than Malcador.

It could be that the Emperor no longer had a use for the Malcador entity and allowed him to burn out, or that the Malcador entity contained a smaller portion of the Emperor's soul than the Emperor entity, or even that the Emperor, being wounded as he was, needed the Malcador entities soul in order to keep the Emperor entity alive, after all, it wasn't until the exact moment of Malcador's death that the Emperor arose from his coma...

I don't see how the fact that they always appear together and at the same place at the same time disproves anything (except that Malcador is the Emperor in costume, which nobody here is suggesting).

Nor does the fact that they refer to eachother as separate entities... not doing so would give away the secret...

Nor does the fact that they speak with different levels of reasoning and authority... not doing so would also give away the secret, likewise its in the Emperor's best interest to have Malcador act as the mouthpiece, Malcador has the authority to handle 99% of all issues that arise. Notice that the Emperor only really ever takes direct action when Malcador isn't obeyed? If the Emperor did everything himself he would be perceived as authoritarian or even a dictatorial tyrant.

Yeah, but the Emperor is a more accomplished psyker than Malcador, if the two are the same, then that means Malcador is a more accomplished psyker than Magnus... Also, as I recall, in A Thousand Sons, initially Magnus was not able to perceive Malcador at all, until he stepped away from the Emperor and onto the podium or whatever.

Also, lets not forget that Nemesis seems to hint at the two bodies one soul angle a bit. I cannot recall the specific passages, but reading that book is where I first started piecing together the theory.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, but the Emperor is a more accomplished psyker than Malcador, if the two are the same, then that means Malcador is a more accomplished psyker than Magnus... Also, as I recall, in A Thousand Sons, initially Magnus was not able to perceive Malcador at all, until he stepped away from the Emperor and onto the podium or whatever.

That's not true, though. The Emperor wanted Magnus to power the Golden Throne in his absence. Malcador was a last resort; the only person who could do it after Magnus defected.

Vice_Grip wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:don't discount the possability.

Why would the Emperor waste his own energy to protect the human section of the Webway, while he was fighting Horus?

That doesn't make sense.

Perhapps the webway will come into play later, IMO there was a reason, perhapps something is going to happen and the webway becomes important.

Well there is the fact that if he didn't have someone on the throne/"guarding the webway" then daemons would have a direct access portal to Terra...

That's not true, though. The Emperor wanted Magnus to power the Golden Throne in his absence, Malcador was a last resort, and the only person who could do it after Magnus defected.

Who is the one that defected?

And its not necessarily not true. The combined Emperor/Malcador combo is clearly superior to Magnus. Malcador on his own might not have been as strong as Magnus, but he (by which I mean the Emperor/Malcador entity) could easily have had the skill to make the two appear as two seperate entities even if they weren't. Remember, one of the (many) reasons why the Heresy occurred was because the Emperor was keeping secrets from his primarchs, like the whole golden throne situation...

chaos0xomega wrote:
The combined Emperor/Malcador combo is clearly superior to Magnus.

Then why was Magnus slated to operate the Golden Throne?

Nerivant wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The combined Emperor/Malcador combo is clearly superior to Magnus.

Then why was Magnus slated to operate the Golden Throne?

Well, the Emperor had more important things to do than to sit on a golden throne for all eternity. Surely you're not going to try to argue that Magnus was a superior psyker to the Emperor? Despite the fact that MAGNUS HIMSELF acknowledges that the Emperor is superior several times during the course of A Thousand Sons

chaos0xomega wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The combined Emperor/Malcador combo is clearly superior to Magnus.

Then why was Magnus slated to operate the Golden Throne?

Well, the Emperor had more important things to do than to sit on a golden throne for all eternity. Surely you're not going to try to argue that Magnus was a superior psyker to the Emperor? Despite the fact that MAGNUS HIMSELF acknowledges that the Emperor is superior several times during the course of A Thousand Sons

No, I'm saying that if Magnus had been around, Malcador wouldn't have sat on the throne.

What you seem to be saying, is that the Emperor powered the Golden Throne through Malcador, while defeating Horus at the height of his power.

Nerivant wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

Nerivant wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
The combined Emperor/Malcador combo is clearly superior to Magnus.

Then why was Magnus slated to operate the Golden Throne?

Well, the Emperor had more important things to do than to sit on a golden throne for all eternity. Surely you're not going to try to argue that Magnus was a superior psyker to the Emperor? Despite the fact that MAGNUS HIMSELF acknowledges that the Emperor is superior several times during the course of A Thousand Sons

No, I'm saying that if Magnus had been around, Malcador wouldn't have sat on the throne.

Well obviously, but someone had to do it, and Malcador did do it, despite the fact that he was never intended to (which would explain why he was burned out. Remember, the Emperor created Magnus specifically with that purpose in mind, if he did create Malcador as a puppet/double, it was not the Emperor's intent for him to sit on the throne which would explain what happened).

All in all, sitting on the Golden Throne sounds like a horrible gig. Yay, I get to be slowly drained for all eternity while maintained by the death of millions.

For all the tragic elements of Magnus' fall, it was probably for the best.

chaos0xomega wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:The fact that Malcador is no where near as powerful as The Emperor. He burned out of The Golden Throne when the Emperor survived.
The fact that they are nearly always together. First Heretic, the fact that Malcador is nearly always at Terra, with The Emperor.
The Fact that they have appeared in the same place at the same time. First Heretic, the council at Nicea.
The fact that they refer to each other as separate people. Both First Heretic and A Thousand Sons, Malcador speaks of The Emperor as a separate entity.
The fact that they have spoken as separate people with different levels of reasoning and authority, and also views. Malcador can't convince Lorgar when The Emperor can. During Nicea, where The Emperor has to make a final ruling, when Malcador doesn't.
The fact that Magnus sees them as separate despite being a more accomplished Psyker than Malcador.

It could be that the Emperor no longer had a use for the Malcador entity and allowed him to burn out, or that the Malcador entity contained a smaller portion of the Emperor's soul than the Emperor entity, or even that the Emperor, being wounded as he was, needed the Malcador entities soul in order to keep the Emperor entity alive, after all, it wasn't until the exact moment of Malcador's death that the Emperor arose from his coma...

Fantastic, counter the fact with un-based speculation. The Emperor awoke once Malcador gave his last ounce of strength he had been saving to take The Emperor out of his coma. If they are the same entity, why did he have to wait? If they are the same, why did Malcador have to keep The Emperor alive? Why didn't he just tell them how to modify The Golden Throne?

I don't see how the fact that they always appear together and at the same place at the same time disproves anything (except that Malcador is the Emperor in costume, which nobody here is suggesting).

If they're the same entity then whats the point of going to the same place if they both can do the same thing?

Nor does the fact that they refer to eachother as separate entities... not doing so would give away the secret...

So it's a secret, amazing proof.

Nor does the fact that they speak with different levels of reasoning and authority... not doing so would also give away the secret, likewise its in the Emperor's best interest to have Malcador act as the mouthpiece, Malcador has the authority to handle 99% of all issues that arise. Notice that the Emperor only really ever takes direct action when Malcador isn't obeyed? If the Emperor did everything himself he would be perceived as authoritarian or even a dictatorial tyrant.

Yeah, it does. If they're the same, why do they have different levels of thinking? Again, "it's a secret" is not proof of any sort.

Yeah, but the Emperor is a more accomplished psyker than Malcador, if the two are the same, then that means Malcador is a more accomplished psyker than Magnus... Also, as I recall, in A Thousand Sons, initially Magnus was not able to perceive Malcador at all, until he stepped away from the Emperor and onto the podium or whatever.

Wow. So, Malcador dies on The Throne, Magnus could have survived due his his greater power, so that makes them the same? No, it makes Magnus more powerful than Malcador, since Malcador and The Emperor are not the same. If Malcador was more powerful, why not have him sit on The Throne in the first place and let The Emperor run around forever? Why did The Emperor go back to Terra to build The Throne and not just send Malcador if they're the same? Magnus was not able to perceive half the people at Nicea, because they were protected by some 'box' which shelided their psychic signature. There were several people he could only perceive after they stepped out of this shadow, Mortarion and a Space Wolf Librarian among them.

Also, lets not forget that Nemesis seems to hint at the two bodies one soul angle a bit. I cannot recall the specific passages, but reading that book is where I first started piecing together the theory.

Then quote the parts then, I can near guarantee it's going to be all about The Emperor and Malcador being Psykers and trying to achieve the same goals, although that's what every member of The Crusade was doing until The Heresy.
Way to back up the theory with no evidence.

Why is it that you can accept the idea that Alpharius and Omegon were a single person/spirit split across two bodies, but you cannot accept the same for the Emperor and Malcador? After all, weren't the primarchs made in his image?

chaos0xomega wrote:Why is it that you can accept the idea that Alpharius and Omegon were a single person/spirit split across two bodies, but you cannot accept the same for the Emperor and Malcador? After all, weren't the primarchs made in his image?

Well, you still haven't answered my question.

I don't see how the Emperor/Malcador could have powered the Golden Throne and fought and defeated Horus at the height of his power.

Quick question as I havent really went for the BL stuff till lately due to the fiction from GW I read being under par before. wheres the stuff about the sacrifice on the golden throne found? Always loved the short story of the emperors confrontation with horus from WD years back in the 90's would like to see how they expanded it

chaos0xomega wrote:Why is it that you can accept the idea that Alpharius and Omegon were a single person/spirit split across two bodies, but you cannot accept the same for the Emperor and Malcador? After all, weren't the primarchs made in his image?

Maybe because Alpharius/Omegon's condition is spelled out in the fluff, while the Malcador/Emperor thing is a very tenuous conspiracy theory?

Just a thought.

Simply because the Concept is GW certified cannon. Having not yet read Legion, I'm not going to go and from my own opinion of it, but don't presume what I think.
This theory has literally no evidence to back it up.

Vermillion wrote:Quick question as I havent really went for the BL stuff till lately due to the fiction from GW I read being under par before. wheres the stuff about the sacrifice on the golden throne found? Always loved the short story of the emperors confrontation with horus from WD years back in the 90's would like to see how they expanded it

The sacrifice on the golden t...hrone is found IIRC in the "visions of Heresy" books.

The latest "final confrontation of Big E vs Horus" is found in codex Blood Angels, page 7.


The Emperor and Malcador are not and never will be the same.

Malcador was the regent of Terra, acted without the Emperors presence.
When Big E was busy in his dungeons for example, Malcador ruled in his name, except for the SM legions who were guided by Dorn.
The Emperor or a splinter of him would't have need for a Primarch to care for parts of his dutys.

I dunno. I'm not saying that this IS the case, I'm saying that there is a remote possibility that this is the case, and I don't see why acknowledging that is such a big deal for some people. GW has already shown us that there is a lot more going on during the time of the Emperor than we could have ever guessed, and by that I mean there are a lot of behind the scene's conspiracies. For example, the Alpharius/Omegon thing, the two lost legions thing, the Space Wolves being anti-astartes astartes, etc. And those are just the obvious ones, then there are things like Dorn committing his own minor betrayals of the Emperor (in Nemesis it is implied that he spilled the beans to Horus regarding the assassination attempt, etc.), the Blood Ravens thing, the "No Wolves on Fenris" thing, the Garro = Inquisitor thing, etc.

1hadhq wrote:

Vermillion wrote:Quick question as I havent really went for the BL stuff till lately due to the fiction from GW I read being under par before. wheres the stuff about the sacrifice on the golden throne found? Always loved the short story of the emperors confrontation with horus from WD years back in the 90's would like to see how they expanded it

The sacrifice on the golden t...hrone is found IIRC in the "visions of Heresy" books.

The latest "final confrontation of Big E vs Horus" is found in codex Blood Angels, page 7.


The Emperor and Malcador are not and never will be the same.

Malcador was the regent of Terra, acted without the Emperors presence.
When Big E was busy in his dungeons for example, Malcador ruled in his name, except for the SM legions who were guided by Dorn.
The Emperor or a splinter of him would't have need for a Primarch to care for parts of his dutys.

Thanks will go look it up.

iproxtaco wrote:Well, considering they've appeared in the same place, kinda puts an even bigger hole in the already un-based conspiracy theories.

No. The guy that told me his theory said that there was Malcador who was the real Emperor and the 'real' Emperor was kind of like Primarch zero who was the mouthpiece of the whole show.

Furthermore, the guy who told me this DID NOT claim it to be an absolute truth but merely explored it as an interesting possibility which was the same reason I posted it here. It wasn't intended to ruffle any feathers but to hopefully generate a stimulating debate on a theory that I thought was as interesting as it was fringe.

iproxtaco wrote:Simply because the Concept is GW certified cannon. Having not yet read Legion, I'm not going to go and from my own opinion of it, but don't presume what I think.
This theory has literally no evidence to back it up.

You haven't read Legion? So you don't know of the huge, canon changing events that happen during that book?

Black Library has shown a trend (ESPECIALLY in Legion) of challenging our perceived notions of what actually happened during the heresy that I think it is naive and a little ignorant to say that Malcador emphatically CANNOT be the actual Emperor. Also, they have hinted that the end has some serious changes to perceived history as well.

But really, this is a fun "what if" thread, there's no need to get all hostile over what is in fact, a fictional history about toy soldiers.

I've seen this theory bandied about as well. There's not much to go on but the ties between the too. The problem is this theory gets less and less convincing as the fluff gets more detail. In the Garro audio series, Malcador is on Luna and not Terra. Malcador is also responsible for moving Titan into the warp in the Grey Knights Codex ( ) I guess it could be possible that the Emperor and Malcador are one and the same, but to what purpose. You could say that the Emperor needed two faces, one to be Emperor and one to be the human. But then the Emperor could appear in any guise he wanted. I doubt that they were the same.

Malcador was in pretty bad shape after the whole sitting on the throne thing, The Emperor is a more important figure than the Regent of Terra. After the Heresy you need to keep the one who can give the most hope alive. Perhaps Malcador was a spare battery?