What Are The Top 5 Overpowered/Undercosted Units/Wargear in 40k?

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**Melissia**

Book of St.Lucius: 5pts for Stubborn on every unit? Yes. Always.

What, you mean because Sisters have to pay for their special morale rules that it's suddenly underpriced, but because Marines don't have to their ATSKNF and Combat Tactics isn't?

That makes no sense.

**Grimtuff**

Melissia wrote:
Book of St.Lucius: 5pts for Stubborn on every unit? Yes. Always.
What, you mean because Sisters have to pay for their special morale rules that it's suddenly underpriced, but because Marines don't have to their ATSKNF and Combat Tactics isn't?

That makes no sense.

No, because like the Disruption Pod they changed the rules for what the terminology meant between editions, so an item that was appropriately priced at the time the book was made is now suddenly underpriced due to changes in the rules.

Another example- Black Templars "accept any challenge" Vow. Was okay when it was created as Preferred Enemy worked differently in 4th ed. Now it's practically the only Vow you see BT players take.

**Melissia**

Grimtuff wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Book of St.Lucius: 5pts for Stubborn on every unit? Yes. Always.
What, you mean because Sisters have to pay for their special morale rules that it's suddenly underpriced, but because Marines don't have to their ATSKNF and Combat Tactics isn't?

That makes no sense.

No, because like the Disruption Pod they changed the rules for what the terminology meant between editions, so an item that was appropriately priced at the time the book was made is now suddenly underpriced due to changes in the rules.

The Book of St. Lucius never gave Stubborn. Its rules haven't changed over the editions.

**nosferatu1001**

However it gives the effect of stubborn - unmodifiable Ld10

**Grimtuff**

Melissia wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Book of St.Lucius: 5pts for Stubborn on every unit? Yes. Always.
What, you mean because Sisters have to pay for their special morale rules that it's suddenly underpriced, but because Marines don't have to their ATSKNF and Combat Tactics isn't?

That makes no sense.

No, because like the Disruption Pod they changed the rules for what the terminology meant between editions, so an item that was appropriately priced at the time the book was made is now suddenly underpriced due to changes in the rules.
The Book of St. Lucius never gave Stubborn. Its rules haven't changed over the editions.

In 5th edition it gives Stubborn for all itents and purposes. The mechanics are identical. Now, due to how certain things have changed in the game, specifically how to work out who won HTH combat, this item becomes fething too useful not to take. Now your Sisters, whose Ld and HTH prowess was never amazing are not getting run down in HTH due to (for all intents and purposes) possessing Stubborn.

**AvatarForm**

Vaktathi wrote:Well, here's my rather subjective opinions, though I think they may be rather similar to many other peoples lists.

1: Long Fangs. Ridiculously cheap, plus split fire ability. Mos cost effective heavy weapons/per points spend unit in the game for long range AT guns, in addition to being BS4 T4 3+sv Ld9 with counterattack and the ability to engage two different targets. These have become ubiquitous auto-buys for SW armies, part of why the majority SW armies these days are bandwagon hopper armies. The Sergeant really should cost an additional 10pts for his split fire ability and each weapon should be about 5pts more (so instead of 140pts in their ubiquitous cut/paste 5x Missile Launcher incarnation, they'd be 180pts).

2: Grey Hunters. CSM's with ATSKNF, Acute Senses, and Counterattack for the same cost per model and significantly cheaper or free upgrades, especially in regards to taking WG sergeant equivalent. These guys end up significantly cheaper than much less capable C:SM Tac and C:CSM Chaos Marine squads. Realistically should be an additional 3pts per model with pretty much all options (inculding WG's gear) being an additional 5-10pts over what they are now, so they end up roughly ~250pts per squad if 10 strong (assuming WG) in a rhino and not closer to 200-220.

3: Vendettas. Not really quite as bad as the above two, as they aren't hard at all to neutralize (either keep from shooting or outright kill), but in the wrong FOC slot and a little cheap, which the former being it's most abusive quality (since you can still take all the big ordnance and other AT guns with it). Shifting to HS may solve the majority of the problems with it.

4: Baal Preds. I realize this may not be a universal thing, but allowing an AV13 Fast battletank with Scout in a Fast Attacks lot for a Space Marine army is ridiculous, for many of the same reasons as the Vendetta (too much armor spam and still have full HS FOC access to all the big guns and *more* AV13 Fast Battletanks). Switching to HS and removing Scout would fix it really.

5: Rune Priests. Some of the best psychic powers in the game (in an army that purportedly dislikes psykers and was the primary detractor of the Thousand Sons for their use of Psychic powers) with excellent psychic defense, and an upgraded Force Weapon, plus Counterattack, an option for an anti-infiltration/BS booster wargear option, and access to Saga's. Compared to other Librarians or Farseers, the Rune Priest is by far the best equipped with the most special rules and options and with some of the (if not *the*) best Psychic Powers in the game, for the same cost as basic SM librarians. These guys really should be about 30-35pts more.

EDIT: Wargear list

Stormshields: Horrifically cheap for every army that can take them except SW's. People would still take TH/SS termi's often and over LC termi's if they were 50pts each, and I can't recall the last time I saw any C:SM HQ in a game that didn't have a 3++ save.

Psybolt Ammunition: Not so bad on everything, but not exactly expensive either, however on Dreads it's downright absurd. 5pts? Really? To upgrade two twin linked autocannons to S8? At that point it might as well be automatic because there's never going to be a time when someone is *not* going to take that upgrade at that cost, they'll cut other points elsewhere first. It wouldn't be outlandish at 20pts, you'd still see people take it quite often.

Disruption Pods: Useless in 4E when the book was written, about the only thing keeping the Tau afloat in 5th edition.

Runes of Warding: very effective psychic defense across the entire table, though also situational as many armies don't run psykers.

Book of St.Lucius: 5pts for Stubborn on every unit? Yes. Always.

It makes my day when others cry about space wolves.

**Melissia**

Grimtuff wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Grimtuff wrote:
Melissia wrote:
Book of St.Lucius: 5pts for Stubborn on every unit? Yes. Always.
What, you mean because Sisters have to pay for their special morale rules that it's suddenly underpriced, but because Marines don't have to their ATSKNF and Combat Tactics isn't?

That makes no sense.

No, because like the Disruption Pod they changed the rules for what the terminology meant between editions, so an item that was appropriately priced at the time the book was made is now suddenly underpriced due to changes in the rules.
The Book of St. Lucius never gave Stubborn. Its rules haven't changed over the editions.

In 5th edition it gives Stubborn for all itents and purposes. The mechanics are identical. Now, due to how certain things have changed in the game, specifically how to work out who won HTH combat, this item becomes fething too useful not to take. Now your Sisters, whose Ld and HTH prowess was never amazing are not getting run down in HTH due to (for all intents and purposes) possessing Stubborn.

Quite frankly? It's OVERPRICED for what it does, not underpriced.

Sisters have no morale rules without the BoSL. For feth's sake, basic Tactical Marines still get more, point per point, than basic Battle Sisters do. For a mere six points per model more than you'd pay for the cost of a Battle Sister, you get +1 WS, +1 S, +1 T, +1 I, Bolt Pistols, Combat Tactics, Combat Squads ATSKNF, Frag Grenades, Krak Grenades, and a free special/heavy weapon. That's half a point for each item. And yet, despite this, Sisters have to PAY, fething PAY, for their morale rules, an extra five points per squad. Actually it's more than five points. You have to pay nineteen points for it per squad, because Marines also get a free vet sergeant, whereas Sisters have to pay for theirs. So really, they get all that gak above for merely four points more per model.

Want to talk about an undercosted squad? There it is. Tactical Marines are undercosted. I bet that'll get some keyboards tapping and mouths flapping.

Frankly, if the BoSL is underpriced, then so is EVERY SINGLE INFANTRY IN EVERY SINGLE MARINE CODEX IN FIFTH EDITION. The BoSL is undeniably NOT undercosted. It shouldn't actually cost anything at all.

**nosferatu1001**

Aaaaaaand.....relax

FOr its effect in game, vs the listed effect, it IS undercosted. Taken in isolation that is undeniable.

Yes, Sisters are expensive - thats called "you're a 3rd ed codex". Sorry.

**Melissia**

nosferatu1001 wrote:FOr its effect in game, vs the listed effect, it IS undercosted.

No, it is not.

Its overcosted for what it does.

**nosferatu1001**

Meaning you dont get sweeping advanced and losing a squad after being beaten in combat, for 5 points, UNLESS you want to have the modifiers and have a chance to run away? For 5 points IN ISOLATION that is a HUGELY powerful ability.

Please explain how, in isolation, it is "overcosted". Arguments along the lines of "it should be free" arent exactly a good argument, btw.

**gendoikari87**

vonjankmon wrote:Miraclefish nailed it in one. Otherwise you wouldn't actually be able to disembark troops from a Valk/Vend.

As for my list:

- Long Fangs, reasons have been covered previously.
- Vendettas, I play Guard but this really are undercosted, I always think 150-170 might be a better cost.
- Most of the BA vehicles, do they actually cost any more for all being fast? Fast Vindi's and fast scouting Baal Preds are just wrong, no idea what GW was thinking.

nothing with av 12 should ever be over 130. They are too easy to bring down.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Miraclefish wrote:But the rules say you must stay 1" away from models - and the model is far more than 1" above everything bar a Dreadknight...

I suggest you have a look at the skimmer rules then. They apply an additional restriction.

You're also wrong in your assertion - models (in general) must stay 1" away from ENEMY models, not friendly ones. Skimmers have an additional restriction.

FInally: you cannot finish your move over other models. Move skimer -> finish moving skimmer. Check to see if you're over other models. No? then you're good. NOW disembark models. Not difficult....

I'm sorry your wrong but you are. The faq clearly states you treat it from the base. To the hull is only for shooting it.

**nosferatu1001**

Gendolkari - so, you think SR are overpriced?

lol

Also: you are 100% wrong in this. If you believe you are right - take it to YMDC. But you arent. The FAQ for IG / actual rules for BA / GK says you measure to the base for:
- embark / disembark
- contesting objectives

The actual RULES for skimmers then say you only use the base for assaults.

That is it. You then look at the actal rules for vehicles which tells you to measure everything to the Hull.

If you want to disagree - YMDC or actually post some rules.

**gendoikari87**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning you dont get sweeping advanced and losing a squad after being beaten in combat, for 5 points, UNLESS you want to have the modifiers and have a chance to run away? For 5 points IN ISOLATION that is a HUGELY powerful ability.

Please explain how, in isolation, it is "overcosted". Arguments along the lines of "it should be free" arent exactly a good argument, btw.

Never start an argument with mellissa, prove her wrong mathematically and she still will argue with you. it's an exercise in futility.

**Grimtuff**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning you dont get sweeping advanced and losing a squad after being beaten in combat, for 5 points, UNLESS you want to have the modifiers and have a chance to run away? For 5 points IN ISOLATION that is a HUGELY powerful ability.

Please explain how, in isolation, it is "overcosted". Arguments along the lines of "it should be free" arent exactly a good argument, btw.

Don't you remember, it's an unwritten rule in 40k that SOB must be underpowered in every way and cannot have anything good. Ever. Even if they get a new codex with new shiny toys.

It is a massively underpriced item in the current metagame, the fact it puts a HUGE damper on your franky overpriced Sisters units from getting run down in HTH as some random assault unit killed 3 of your girls that would make them Ld 6 for said test.

My Necrons would kill for such an item right now.

**gendoikari87**

Gendolkari - so, you think SR are overpriced?

lets see, big sign that says "hit me, I'm expensive and AV 12" yes one turn of doing something isn't a whole lot. cause you only get one turn if you go first, after that they're down. Valks are more useful simply because they have scout and can deliver troops to your front line Turn 1.

yeah they're overcosted. At most 175, and thats only because the ceremite hull neglects melta. which isn't that huge when you can be taken down by a few fething multi lasers.

**Melissia**

nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning you dont get sweeping advanced and losing a squad after being beaten in combat, for 5 points, UNLESS you want to have the modifiers and have a chance to run away? For 5 points IN ISOLATION that is a HUGELY powerful ability.

Please explain how, in isolation, it is "overcosted". Arguments along the lines of "it should be free" arent exactly a good argument, btw.

Because balance cannot be taken in a vacuum. I already explained why it's overcosted.

Orks get Mob Rule for free. (Most) Marines get ATSKNF and/or Combat Tactics for free. Guard gets Orders for free. Daemons get Fearless for free. Eldar, both types, get Fleet for free, and Dark Eldar get Night Vision and Power from Pain for free. Heck, even Necrons get WBB for free.

Just imagine how much you'd love your little living metal zombies if you had to BUY we'll be back.

**Polonius**

I'd agree with Long Fangs. Surperior to Devestators in every way (cheaper, split fire, higher LD, extra heavy weapon, acute senses, counterattack), and a powerful force on the metagame.

that all said, it's best used against many of the other units that get listed in these sorts of things: vendettas, chimeras, razorbacks. So... is it broken because it hurts other broken stuff? I say sort of. The collateral damage is that they're also good against non-broken stuff as well.

Vendettas are a powerful unit, but have a wider effect swing than long fangs. As a transport, they can deliver an alpha strike or hold a scoring unit, and their damage potential is very high. They are alarmingly fragile though, which means that in many games they will accomplish little.

Deff Rolla: as a side effect of 5th edition, this 20pt piece of wargear can now devestate vehicles. Yes, it's an intergral part of the orks ability to compete, but it's very cheap for what it does.

Chimera: the lynchpin of many IG armies, this transport is reasonably durable, dirt cheap, and allows five models to shoot out the hatch.

Rune Priest: 100pts for access to game changing psychic powers.

What's interesting, is that if you were to compile a list of the 10-20 most cite "OP" units or upgrades, you'll see that most of them counter other OP choices. That's not a coincidence.

In other words, increasing the cost of Long Fangs make AV12 stronger. Increasing the cost of deff rollas make landraiders better. And so on.

**gendoikari87**

hey everyone, your wrong. Know how I'm gunna prove this:

*walks out*

**Grimtuff**

Melissia wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning you dont get sweeping advanced and losing a squad after being beaten in combat, for 5 points, UNLESS you want to have the modifiers and have a chance to run away? For 5 points IN ISOLATION that is a HUGELY powerful ability.

Please explain how, in isolation, it is "overcosted". Arguments along the lines of "it should be free" arent exactly a good argument, btw.
Because balance cannot be taken in a vacuum. I already explained why it's overcosted.

Yet we've explained numerous times outside of a vacuum as to why it is overcosted in the context of how 5th edition rules work and how it interacts with them and increases the army's efficiency in HTH dramatically purely as a side effect of the core rules changing.

I guarantee that when SOB get their WD update in a few months time like is rumoured, that item if it is still there will cost about 3 times as much. Because it is that good.

**Melissia**

Grimtuff wrote:Yet we've explained numerous times outside of a vacuum as to why it is overcosted

No you haven't. All you've used IS a vacuum. You've not taken into consideration the army that the wargear exists in.

Fifteen point power weapons are overcosted for Guard, but they're fine for Marines. Shootaz would be overpowered in the hands of a Marine, but in the hands of an Ork, they're perfectly fine. Etc etc etc.

**Polonius**

Melissia wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning you dont get sweeping advanced and losing a squad after being beaten in combat, for 5 points, UNLESS you want to have the modifiers and have a chance to run away? For 5 points IN ISOLATION that is a HUGELY powerful ability.

Please explain how, in isolation, it is "overcosted". Arguments along the lines of "it should be free" arent exactly a good argument, btw.
Because balance cannot be taken in a vacuum. I already explained why it's overcosted.

Sure it can. Nobody is saying Sisters are undercosted, just that that particular upgrade is. The fact that it's such a no-brainer auto-add that it should be included actually is strong evidence that it's undercosted.

think of it like a group-on offer: A $50 gift certificate to a steakhouse for $35 is a solid but not overwhelming offer. Adding on an offer of "$5 for a free bottle of wine" is an amazing offer in a vacuum. In the end, you're pay $40 for $75 worth of stuff, which is still not an amazing deal. It doesn't change that the $5 for a $25 bottle of wine is a hell of a deal.

**Melissia**

Polonius wrote:
Melissia wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning you dont get sweeping advanced and losing a squad after being beaten in combat, for 5 points, UNLESS you want to have the modifiers and have a chance to run away? For 5 points IN ISOLATION that is a HUGELY powerful ability.

Please explain how, in isolation, it is "overcosted". Arguments along the lines of "it should be free" arent exactly a good argument, btw.
Because balance cannot be taken in a vacuum. I already explained why it's overcosted.

Sure it can. Nobody is saying Sisters are undercosted, just that that particular upgrade is.

Because they're making the dumb decision to ignore everything else and only look at the wargear, not the wargear in context to the army that has it.

**Polonius**

I'd also argue that if sisters had 35pt rhinos, frag & krak, and bolt pistols (standard power armor kit for 5th), that alone makes them a very solid unit. Meaning, suddenly the ability to control morale effectivly is now very strong.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
Polonius wrote:
Melissia wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:Meaning you dont get sweeping advanced and losing a squad after being beaten in combat, for 5 points, UNLESS you want to have the modifiers and have a chance to run away? For 5 points IN ISOLATION that is a HUGELY powerful ability.

Please explain how, in isolation, it is "overcosted". Arguments along the lines of "it should be free" arent exactly a good argument, btw.
Because balance cannot be taken in a vacuum. I already explained why it's overcosted.

Sure it can. Nobody is saying Sisters are undercosted, just that that particular upgrade is.
Because they're making the dumb decision to ignore everything else and only look at the wargear, not the wargear in context to the army that has it.

but, that's the point of the exercise. that's like saying soccer is dumb because they don't use their hands.

**Melissia**

But they don't, so that's rather moot.

Polonius wrote:that's like saying soccer is dumb because they don't use their hands.

That's one of the dumbest analogies I've ever read.

**Polonius**

Melissia wrote:But they don't, so that's rather moot.
Polonius wrote:that's like saying soccer is dumb because they don't use their hands.
That's one of the dumbest analogies I've ever read.

Why? I think it's rather elegant. The point of soccer isn't to get a ball into a net, it's to do so without ones hands. It's a silly and arbitrary restriction that makes things interesting.

Analyzing cost/benefit ration of "upgrade costs" without regard to "base cost" is likewise a ridiculous and arbitrary restriction. It also can form an interesting conversation. We aren't trying to accomplish a goal (what actual in game units are undercosted), we're playing an intellectual game.

I mean, if the question is "is there a better way to spend 5pts in the WH codex than the Book?" isn't the answer either 1) nope, or 2) maybe a few?

**Melissia**

Basically, the way I see it, you people are arguing the following in regards to the BoSL and Sisters:

Marines get a lot of thing, including ATSKNF and Combat Tactics for free. Therefor, it is not undercosted.

Orks get Mob Rule for free. Therefor, it is not undercosted.

Tyranid Synapse Creatures get Synapse for free. Therefor, it is not undercosted.

Dark Eldar get Fleet and Power from Pain for free, therefor it is not undercosted.

Daemons get fearless for free, therefor it is not undercosted.

Sisters have to pay extra to get their BoSL, as they don't have any such bonuses naturally. Therefor, it is undercosted.

So completely and utterly stupid, asinine, and nonsensical that I'm frankly wondering if you're just being trolls and nothing more.

**Kaskrin123**

Mine would have to be

1. Gaurd given meltas for 10pts as you could easily kill 300 odd points worth of vechile every turn and vets you got 3 of them for 100pts.

2.Sanguinary Guard although quite expensive for what you pay is dam good unit.

3.Lord Commisar's are just pure beauty

**Polonius**

Melissia wrote:Basically, the way I see it, you people are arguing the following in regards to the BoSL and Sisters:

Marines get a lot of thing, including ATSKNF and Combat Tactics for free. Therefor, it is not undercosted.

Orks get Mob Rule for free. Therefor, it is not undercosted.

Tyranid Synapse Creatures get Synapse for free. Therefor, it is not undercosted.

Dark Eldar get Fleet and Power from Pain for free, therefor it is not undercosted.

Daemons get fearless for free, therefor it is not undercosted.

Sisters have to pay extra to get their BoSL, as they don't have any such bonuses naturally. Therefor, it is undercosted. .

None of those rules are either:
1) Units, or
2) Wargear

A 5pt piece of wargear that gave ork mobs "mob rule" would be undercosted. A 6pt boy with mob rule isn't.

A 5pt Book is undercosted. A sisters squad with the book is not.

The rule of the game is that it needs to be an upgrade, an option, a choice.

So, we could argue that the free flamer and Missile launcher a 10man tactical squad get are undercostsed, just like disruption pods, the heavy flamer upgrade on a hellhound, etc. All cheap (or free) upgrades that are really good, but still don't make the unit that great.

So completely and utterly stupid, asinine, and nonsensical that I'm frankly wondering if you're just being trolls and nothing more.

Have you ever, in a moment of introspection, wondered why you seem to call others out for trolling more than nearly anyone else on this board?

**Grimtuff**

Melissia wrote:Basically, the way I see it, you people are arguing the following in regards to the BoSL and Sisters:

Marines get a lot of thing, including ATSKNF and Combat Tactics for free. Therefor, it is not undercosted.

Orks get Mob Rule for free. Therefor, it is not undercosted.

Tyranid Synapse Creatures get Synapse for free. Therefor, it is not undercosted.

Dark Eldar get Fleet and Power from Pain for free, therefor it is not undercosted.

Daemons get fearless for free, therefor it is not undercosted.

Sisters have to pay extra to get their BoSL, as they don't have any such bonuses naturally. Therefor, it is undercosted.

So completely and utterly stupid, asinine, and nonsensical that I'm frankly wondering if you're just being trolls and nothing more.

As already said. It's called "You're using a 3rd ed. Codex. It sucks to be you." Umadbro?

When SOB get updated they will be brought in line with the other Codexes. Same goes for Necrons and Tau, yet you don't see me whinging about my overcosted units and having no real way of circumventing my crappy morale rules, which while fine at the time they were written (moreso Necrons) simply do not work in 5th ed. I'll happily take your BOSL away from you and give it to my Necrons if it will shut you up.

**Melissia**

Polonius wrote:A 5pt piece of wargear that gave ork mobs "mob rule" would be undercosted. A 6pt boy with mob rule isn't.

And that's exactly why <redacted - try "I object so strenuously to that position" --Janthkin>.

Don't whine about Necrons. You at least get WBB for free, you don't have to buy an upgrade to get it. Necrons are overpriced, yes, but you still don't have to pay for yoru special rules any more than the base price.