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Folks,
I'm really keen on getting your thoughts on this; whether you frequent the tournament circuit, or are a regular at a gaming club - what are the top 5 overpowered or undercosted entities in 40k - whether they be units themselves, or an item of wargear which causes the issue.

Reason I ask is that I've been entertaining thoughts of putting together a small fan suppliment to 40k, with the sole objective of taking some of the bite out of the most unbalanced units that we frequently see in competitive games. Any amendments are only to the point cost, and is not intended to be controversal swinging of a pendilum - in many cases it could be a 2-5pt increase that has a slight net balancing affect on the game. But regardless, the vision is to have a simple (perhaps even 1 page) suppliment that gaming clubs and tournemnts can opt in to use; going some way to bringing more equilibrium and character to the gaming tables, and having the owning player more of a right to field units or wargear combos of his choice, without being labaled as cheesy or a powergamer.

If you can list the top 5 (1. being the biggest culprit in your oppinion), I would be in your debt! However, there is one rule that comes with this:

Do not list anything from a codex that is less than a year old. The reason for this is that it is quite common units or wargear that are first viewed as unbalanced, actually become palatable as players learn how to counter it through experience.

Thanks for help, looking forward to seeing your oppinions!

If you're playing in a place where people are labeling the users of good lists "cheesy" or "powergamer" you're playing in the wrong place.

IMO this is a misguided attempt at "balance." Sure, there are some outstanding deals in every codex, but there is no single unit that it is so cost-efficient that it wins games on its own. Even the dreaded Vendetta has diminishing returns after you start taking more than three of them.

Well, here's my rather subjective opinions, though I think they may be rather similar to many other peoples lists.


1: Long Fangs. Ridiculously cheap, plus split fire ability. Mos cost effective heavy weapons/per points spend unit in the game for long range AT guns, in addition to being BS4 T4 3+sv Ld9 with counterattack and the ability to engage two different targets. These have become ubiquitous auto-buys for SW armies, part of why the majority SW armies these days are bandwagon hopper armies. The Sergeant really should cost an additional 10pts for his split fire ability and each weapon should be about 5pts more (so instead of 140pts in their ubiquitous cut/paste 5x Missile Launcher incarnation, they'd be 180pts).

2: Grey Hunters. CSM's with ATSKNF, Acute Senses, and Counterattack for the same cost per model and significantly cheaper or free upgrades, especially in regards to taking WG sergeant equivalent. These guys end up significantly cheaper than much less capable C:SM Tac and C:CSM Chaos Marine squads. Realistically should be an additional 3pts per model with pretty much all options (inculding WG's gear) being an additional 5-10pts over what they are now, so they end up roughly ~250pts per squad if 10 strong (assuming WG) in a rhino and not closer to 200-220.

3: Vendettas. Not really quite as bad as the above two, as they aren't hard at all to neutralize (either keep from shooting or outright kill), but in the wrong FOC slot and a little cheap, which the former being it's most abusive quality (since you can still take all the big ordnance and other AT guns with it). Shifting to HS may solve the majority of the problems with it.

4: Baal Preds. I realize this may not be a universal thing, but allowing an AV13 Fast battletank with Scout in a Fast Attacks lot for a Space Marine army is ridiculous, for many of the same reasons as the Vendetta (too much armor spam and still have full HS FOC access to all the big guns and *more* AV13 Fast Battletanks). Switching to HS and removing Scout would fix it really.

5: Rune Priests. Some of the best psychic powers in the game (in an army that purportedly dislikes psykers and was the primary detractor of the Thousand Sons for their use of Psychic powers) with excellent psychic defense, and an upgraded Force Weapon, plus Counterattack, an option for an anti-infiltration/BS booster wargear option, and access to Saga's. Compared to other Librarians or Farseers, the Rune Priest is by far the best equipped with the most special rules and options and with some of the (if not *the*) best Psychic Powers in the game, for the same cost as basic SM librarians. These guys really should be about 30-35pts more.



EDIT: Wargear list

Stormshields: Horrifically cheap for every army that can take them except SW's. People would still take TH/SS termi's often and over LC termi's if they were 50pts each, and I can't recall the last time I saw any C:SM HQ in a game that didn't have a 3++ save.

Psybolt Ammunition: Not so bad on everything, but not exactly expensive either, however on Dreads it's downright absurd. 5pts? Really? To upgrade two twin linked autocannons to S8? At that point it might as well be automatic because there's never going to be a time when someone is *not* going to take that upgrade at that cost, they'll cut other points elsewhere first. It wouldn't be outlandish at 20pts, you'd still see people take it quite often.

Disruption Pods: Useless in 4E when the book was written, about the only thing keeping the Tau afloat in 5th edition.

Runes of Warding: very effective psychic defense across the entire table, though also situational as many armies don't run psykers.

Book of St.Lucius: 5pts for Stubborn on every unit? Yes. Always.

What about Disruption Pods? For 5 points you get a cover save for your vehicle in many sitations. But at the same time the Devilfish is very expensive.

Runes of Warding for Eldar. 15 points, and you have board wide psychic defense.

Don't know about top five but Vanguard Vets in the SM Dex are way too expensive. I hate the fact that you have to pay extra for each jump pack rather than it coming with the unit. I mean, why the hell would you NOT take the packs hmm? But give them some decent gear and the jump packs and the point cost is sky high (no pun intended) hmmph.

If we are counting the old Daemonhunters Dex then Targeters were probably the most undercosted wargear ever! One Point per squad to let you pre-measure before firing? Yes please!

inb4 "oh look this thread"

Ultimately balance is a personally opinion. Some people think that there need to be a standard to be followed, and others believe that we should be allowed to use all tools provided, even if some tools are clearly superior to others. Trying to balance the game unit by unit is a exercise in futility, since a codex can have all it's units be well made but some will still be picked over others because of the game meta.

1. Grey knight strike squads- so these guys are 20 points a peice. For that 4 points extra, you exchange your bolter for a storm bolter. your combat weapon. for a FORCE weapon. They have nifty psychic powers that increase their str, and access to str 7 rending psycannons for less than that of a lascannon. They are an AMAZING value... and still too expensive, that 4 points extra brings your model count down hard. Sure they hit HARD but they die even harder.

2. purifiers- Okay for one marine and a half you get a Wolf guard with storm bolter and force weapon. Save for acute senses. On and this small little psychic powers that says feth you hoards. Basically they are walking talking Flechette dischargers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

asimo77 wrote:What about Disruption Pods? For 5 points you get a cover save for your vehicle in many sitations. But at the same time the Devilfish is very expensive.

that's a left over from 4th when DP were utter crap.

The warscyth, 10 points and you get no saves in combat? Yes please!

gendoikari87 wrote:1. Grey knight strike squads- so these guys are 20 points a peice. For that 4 points extra, you exchange your bolter for a storm bolter. your combat weapon. for a FORCE weapon. They have nifty psychic powers that increase their str, and access to str 7 rending psycannons for less than that of a lascannon. They are an AMAZING value... and still too expensive, that 4 points extra brings your model count down hard. Sure they hit HARD but they die even harder.

2. purifiers- Okay for one marine and a half you get a Wolf guard with storm bolter and force weapon. Save for acute senses. On and this small little psychic powers that says feth you hoards. Basically they are walking talking Flechette dischargers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

asimo77 wrote:What about Disruption Pods? For 5 points you get a cover save for your vehicle in many sitations. But at the same time the Devilfish is very expensive.

that's a left over from 4th when DP were utter crap.

Did you not read the original post? He said no codices younger than 1 year (I.E. the new grey knights).

Vaktathi wrote:4: Baal Preds. I realize this may not be a universal thing, but allowing an AV13 Fast battletank with Scout in a Fast Attacks lot for a Space Marine army is ridiculous, for many of the same reasons as the Vendetta (too much armor spam and still have full HS FOC access to all the big guns and *more* AV13 Fast Battletanks). Switching to HS and removing Scout would fix it really.

It can be a really powerful unit, but it is using an AC and has to put itself into danger in using such. I would not call it overpowered.

Really? The warscythe? Tell you what, how about you decrease the price of everything else in that codex by ten points, twin link Heavy Destroyer guns, and let me take double Ctan, then you can nerf my warscythes.

Seriously, if Necrons are giving you problems with their warscythes (which are only on Lords and Pariahs, the WORST unit in the entire codex), then the problem lies not with the necron dex, it lies with you.

Predators and Long Fangs come to the top of my list... my knowledge base isn't solid enough in other codices for me to have confidence in other units.

Being a bargain (Libby) doesn't always mean undercosted

Long Fangs seem pretty amazing. I've only seen them in action, but never fought.

Vendettas would be undercosted if the rules for flyers aren't as they are now. A Vendetta is probably taking a Dangerous Terrain test every single time it moves, as the entire massive footprint counts as Hull, it's insanely easy to hit with blast weapons (again, huge footprint), it can't really get coversaves without very creative cover management, it can't stop over friendly or enemy units (again, HUGE footprint), and it has to move 12" on from the board because the model is insanely large.


Given all of the drawbacks it isn't really undercosted. Long Fangs are another story entirely.

Manticores ,Vindicators, and Land Raiders.

1. Sanguinary Priests. They may not be that OTT powerful, but my god are they undercosted. 6" Bubble of FC/FNP? For 50pts? Other armies get to have FNP on ONE SQUAD for 30pts (painboy) and BA get a bubble of doom for just 50pts? Seriously?
2. Long Fangs, for all the reasons previously stated in this thread.
3. Vendettas. Just so underpriced.
4. Manticores, same reason.
5. Runes of Warding. Not OP, but makes every single other kind of psychic defence look like crap.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Vendettas would be undercosted if the rules for flyers aren't as they are now. A Vendetta is probably taking a Dangerous Terrain test every single time it moves, as the entire massive footprint counts as Hull, it's insanely easy to hit with blast weapons (again, huge footprint), it can't really get coversaves without very creative cover management, it can't stop over friendly or enemy units (again, HUGE footprint), and it has to move 12" on from the board because the model is insanely large.


Given all of the drawbacks it isn't really undercosted. Long Fangs are another story entirely.

Those drawbacks are rather...lame, to put it simply. For one thing the main tactic for Vendettas is the alpha strike or the reserve game, which would negate most of the drawbacks you listed. You've ever been on the other end of a MeltaVetVendetta rush? I have, it's not fun. Even then, a vendetta costs 50 points less than a laspred with extra armor, with the vandetta has better aim, is a fast skimmer, has scout and deep strike, and can transport 12 models.

NuggzTheNinja wrote:Vendettas would be undercosted if the rules for flyers aren't as they are now. A Vendetta is probably taking a Dangerous Terrain test every single time it moves, as the entire massive footprint counts as Hull, it's insanely easy to hit with blast weapons (again, huge footprint), it can't really get coversaves without very creative cover management, it can't stop over friendly or enemy units (again, HUGE footprint), and it has to move 12" on from the board because the model is insanely large.


Given all of the drawbacks it isn't really undercosted. Long Fangs are another story entirely.

There is no rule saying you cannot be underneath a skimmer.

Nemesis Force Weapons from the GK, I mean your giveing every one a force weapon? WTF

Nightwalker wrote:Nemesis Force Weapons from the GK, I mean your giveing every one a force weapon? WTF

¬¬ Read the original post: No Codexes less than a year old

willy - yes, there is. A skimmer may not end its move over any mdoel.

nosferatu1001 wrote:willy - yes, there is. A skimmer may not end its move over any mdoel.

But doesn't it apply only to the base? I know for example that embarking/disembarking is calculated from the model's base for the stormraven (and so I guess for the valk/vendetta as well)... Wouldn't movement and the like be calculated using the base as well?

No. As for all vehicles you meaure to the hull - there are only limited exceptions, assaults and for SR / Valk embark/disembark and contesting. Nothing else is listed, so you still use the actual hull of the vehicle for everything else.

that sucks a lot... I guess it explains why people ask for rules for flyers.

But the rules say you must stay 1" away from models - and the model is far more than 1" above everything bar a Dreadknight...

Miraclefish nailed it in one. Otherwise you wouldn't actually be able to disembark troops from a Valk/Vend.

As for my list:

- Long Fangs, reasons have been covered previously.
- Vendettas, I play Guard but this really are undercosted, I always think 150-170 might be a better cost.
- Most of the BA vehicles, do they actually cost any more for all being fast? Fast Vindi's and fast scouting Baal Preds are just wrong, no idea what GW was thinking.

Vaktathi wrote:

1: Long Fangs. Ridiculously cheap, plus split fire ability. Mos cost effective heavy weapons/per points spend unit in the game for long range AT guns, in addition to being BS4 T4 3+sv Ld9 with counterattack and the ability to engage two different targets. These have become ubiquitous auto-buys for SW armies, part of why the majority SW armies these days are bandwagon hopper armies. The Sergeant really should cost an additional 10pts for his split fire ability and each weapon should be about 5pts more (so instead of 140pts in their ubiquitous cut/paste 5x Missile Launcher incarnation, they'd be 180pts).

It truly is a puzzle WRT Long Fangs. If we bumped them up to the prices you suggest there it puts them approx. at the cost they were in the old SW dex, where incidentally they were never taken. Obviously there are other factors to consider as to why they were never taken until the current SW dex, such as the changes to cover in 5th ed. and the Metagame in general.

Just food for thought. Personally I only take 1 squad as I think it's daft that SW armies should be hanging back, those SW bandwagoneers are people whose idea of tactics is rolling dice.

Miraclefish wrote:But the rules say you must stay 1" away from models - and the model is far more than 1" above everything bar a Dreadknight...

I suggest you have a look at the skimmer rules then. They apply an additional restriction.

You're also wrong in your assertion - models (in general) must stay 1" away from ENEMY models, not friendly ones. Skimmers have an additional restriction.

FInally: you cannot finish your move over other models. Move skimer -> finish moving skimmer. Check to see if you're over other models. No? then you're good. NOW disembark models. Not difficult....