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Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Tau will become more Grimdark because that is what the kiddies want.

Far from it. Take a look at the FFG supplement, "Mark of the Xenos" and the way the Tau are being showcased in there. They're far from being "grimdark".

The closest thing to "grimdark" I can find is the piece on "Commander Flamewing". When the last Ethereal on a planet he and his Hunter Cadre were holding died, his Fire Caste became more and more aggressive, and actually fought one another.
Only the fact that he mustered them for a death or glory assault upon the Tyranids kept them from killing each other.

That's a bit of 'grimdarking', but at the same time...it fits the nature of the Tau.

It will be a mistake, because all the other factions are Grimdark factions and the background needs a bit of relief. Tau are popular with Tau players because they aren't Grimdark.

Can you say that 100%? I've seen more people who like Tau for their technology and the fact that they're a force where specialists truly are specialists.

GW will screw it up and Grimdarkify Tau for the kiddies.

What exactly are we defining as 'grimdarkifying'?

The Tau becoming more 'wary' of the galaxy at large, and rather than being "Let's be friends!" become "Join us or suffer the consequences" is perfectly reasonable.

And for that matter, look at the depiction of the Tau in the Dark Eldar book. They're far from "grimdark" but are clearly starting to come to grips with a galaxy at war.

I really want Tau to stay good. Including a "good" faction makes the whole setting so much darker. It shows they don't have to be evil. With the good Tau there is hope however small. Without them the galaxy is pretty screwed so it isn't really that important who wins.

Unfortunately I think GW will make them darker as they have been doing it in a lot of the more recent fluff. They should be highlighting the Tau's attempts to be good and making everyone else look bad but I think it will turn into a competition of who can be the most grimdark. I also expect GW to greatly increase the size of the Tau empire. While not as powerful as the IoM they are described as a powerful forc. With such a tiny area of space it doesn't make sense for them to be so powerful.

It's a shame as I really like my Tau but turning them into another version of the IoM will kill my interest. A lot of Tau players I know like them because they are different. They may be naive and have tiny insignificant empire but they are trying to improve the galaxy.

Ronin-Sage wrote:Now, as far as a change in aesthetics, I'm very much in favor of more 'rugged' and militant(as oppossed to the 'industrial') looks for battlesuits. That is to say, some Tau units, namely the original XV8 battlesuits and pretty much every Battlefleet Gothic ship I've seen are uncharacteristically blocky. I would instead like to see an aesthetic style like that of the XV9 battlesuits:

Looks like something off of gundam.

I like it.

Their units could us this military aspect for their appearance. The all seem to be more like space miners or something.

If they wanted to make the Tau look a bit less 90's Gundam and a bit more aggressive/sleek and less optimistic/naeive I'd be ok with it. It would show they are "growing up" as such, realizing the horrors of a galaxy threatened by unending alien swarms and a nether dimension of madness, dominated by an oppressive and backward militarized society and populated by things more ancient than they can comprehend. Basically give them a look that says "well, the greater good is nice and all, and that's really how we'd want to play things, but we've got a *lot* of killing to do before we can think about that stuff again".

I think FW's newer Tau stuff has gone in a good direction on that note.

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Tau will become more Grimdark because that is what the kiddies want.

It will be a mistake, because all the other factions are Grimdark factions and the background needs a bit of relief. Tau are popular with Tau players because they aren't Grimdark.

GW will screw it up and Grimdarkify Tau for the kiddies.

I fear the same. Have not completely worked through the Deathwatch book, but I hope that's not the way GW will go.

I've got a decent bet riding on the Tau going grimdark in their own way.

Factors I think will play out are the Iron Hammer Campaign, Farsight's Dawn Blade, revelation about Ethereals and finally what the nature of Aun'va is.

One thing that has made me think grimdark is the Eldar and Tau relationship. I think the Dark Eldar trickery is going to play hell for Eldar/Tau diplomacy. For the most part, fluff has steered away fom major Eldar/Tau meetings, because in a galaxy of war and evil, Tau would realistically love Eldar and that can't happen.

So they set the stage for a disaster to occur...

Kroothawk wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Tau will become more Grimdark because that is what the kiddies want.

It will be a mistake, because all the other factions are Grimdark factions and the background needs a bit of relief. Tau are popular with Tau players because they aren't Grimdark.

GW will screw it up and Grimdarkify Tau for the kiddies.

I fear the same. Have not completely worked through the Deathwatch book, but I hope that's not the way GW will go.

They're not full on 'Imperial Grimdark' but they're definitely becoming less cuddly and arguably 'Good Guys' in the vein of the Rebel Alliance from Star Wars.

They're becoming more 'shades of gray'. Which is beautifully acceptable, depending on how it's done.

Tau were never cuddly. They are only 'good' in the sense that when they encounter an alien race they give them the option 'surrender or die'. Everyone else in the galaxy just has 'die' as the only option.
I'd like to see some Ethereal abuse of power. I'd like to see some break-away factions. I'd like to see some more information about the other Castes. I'd like to see some very very subtle references to mind control, genocide, sterilisation, whatever. I'd like to see it all written by a good author, not Mat Ward.
I've written a little story piece which involves the Tau coming across a populated planet. The natives refuse Tau request for alliance. The tau amass a fleet to take them out, but when they get there, there is a Tyranid hive fleet in orbit. The tau just sit on their asses until the natives request an alliance... my, aren't we benevolent overlords?

Also, GW is (as always) horrendously bad at dates, Farsight being a prime example. He was already 3x the age of a normal Tau in the first codex. Then Shadowsun gets introduced in the second codex, a young new commander, who was a pupil under the same instructor as farsight....

Trasvi wrote:Tau were never cuddly. They are only 'good' in the sense that when they encounter an alien race they give them the option 'surrender or die'. Everyone else in the galaxy just has 'die' as the only option.

Please read any background text on Tau before posting such nonsense.

Kroothawk wrote:

Trasvi wrote:Tau were never cuddly. They are only 'good' in the sense that when they encounter an alien race they give them the option 'surrender or die'. Everyone else in the galaxy just has 'die' as the only option.

Please read any background text on Tau before posting such nonsense.

Well he is kinda right. The Tau give the option to join the Greater Good or go to war with the Tau Empire.

Yes but another major difference is "join" is rather a vague term for Tau. If you join the greater good you still retain control over your planet and can have limited contact with the Tau if desired. It's like the IoM's tithe system but there aren't any rules on how you rules your world. You could agree to joing the GG witout really changing much- it is a lot about showing the willingness to work together.

Grey Templar wrote:I could see it going 2 ways.


the Etherials could become extinct and the Tau would descend into barbarisim again: More Grimdark.

or,

a larger group of Tau joins Farsight and basically splits the Tau Empire in 2. one half follows the Etherials and the Greater good. the other follows Farsight and the crusade to save their species from Extinction.


the Farsight group becomes extremely Xenophobic. only tolerating other Tau. they advance their suit technology to include close combat advances and more powerful weapons.

the Etherial group focuses more on synergy between the various alien races in combat. they also advance their vehicle and FW weaponry.



a Tau force begins by choosing HQs from either the Farsight or the Etherial led forces. this determines your FoC options.


Farsight would have Fire Warriors as troops, but they would be limited in numbers. Farsight himself would allow Suits to be Troops.

he would also unlock CCW upgrades and also different types of suits. possably a heavier version of an XV8 that is more geared for close combat. a Terminator if you will.


the Etherial would unlock more disciplined fire warriors,

possably Kroot and Vespid HQs.

I personally think that this is a fantastic idea. It irks me that the only PW in the eintire TAu force is on a spec. character. I know that they are supposed to be an extremely shooty army but I think there should be some at least available to Shas'o/Shas'els or even Shas'vres providing that they are wearing Xv8 suits. Perhaps crate a crisis team option that automatically has iridium Armour and/or Shield Generators.


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I would also like to see Etherials getting some sort of boost to make them a fairly good choice

I think a good way to create diversity in terms of army building is making a Crisis Suit commander a choice. What I mean is that you can field your Commander on foot, in a battlesuit or in a broadside (or XV9 if they decide to add it). Whichever choice you make could provide a small boost for that unit in the army, it's just a small idea though and not really thought out.

I want Tau to remain different from the rest of the races in the galaxy by being less grimdark, but the ideas of having Farsight split off and turn more evil is a good one to create more variation. I would like more info on the other castes, and also (somehow) an increase to a Tau's lifespan, nothing ridiculous just higher, their accelerated evolution could be the cause of this.

On the topic of Tau encountering new planets, they send water caste envoys to negotiate with the race to try and persuade them to join the Greater Good, if not then Tau become a bit more hostile, but allying with the Tau doesn't mean swearing to the greater good and you still have a lot of freedom. Most Kroot don't believe in the Greater Good and are mercenaries to other races but allied with Tau out of convenience.

I feel there's a lot of fluff points which need to be cleared up in a new codex, let's hope we get a good writer.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:I think the Tau will become more Grimdark because that is what the kiddies want.

Far from it. Take a look at the FFG supplement, "Mark of the Xenos" and the way the Tau are being showcased in there. They're far from being "grimdark".

The closest thing to "grimdark" I can find is the piece on "Commander Flamewing". When the last Ethereal on a planet he and his Hunter Cadre were holding died, his Fire Caste became more and more aggressive, and actually fought one another.
Only the fact that he mustered them for a death or glory assault upon the Tyranids kept them from killing each other.

That's a bit of 'grimdarking', but at the same time...it fits the nature of the Tau.

It will be a mistake, because all the other factions are Grimdark factions and the background needs a bit of relief. Tau are popular with Tau players because they aren't Grimdark.

Can you say that 100%? I've seen more people who like Tau for their technology and the fact that they're a force where specialists truly are specialists.

GW will screw it up and Grimdarkify Tau for the kiddies.

What exactly are we defining as 'grimdarkifying'?

The Tau becoming more 'wary' of the galaxy at large, and rather than being "Let's be friends!" become "Join us or suffer the consequences" is perfectly reasonable.

And for that matter, look at the depiction of the Tau in the Dark Eldar book. They're far from "grimdark" but are clearly starting to come to grips with a galaxy at war.

The thing is it's subtely grimdark they say "Let's be friends!" but if you say no they kill you or resort to communistic brainwashing

Kroothawk wrote:

Trasvi wrote:Tau were never cuddly. They are only 'good' in the sense that when they encounter an alien race they give them the option 'surrender or die'. Everyone else in the galaxy just has 'die' as the only option.

Please read any background text on Tau before posting such nonsense.

There are many quotes in the Tau Codices which amount to 'you are either with us, or against us'.

There is a quote in the 3rd ed codex from a message drone which says something along the lines of 'When you encounter our ships, welcome us as friends..... the fire caste defeat our enemies... it would be wise to choose to join the Tau Empire'

In the 4th ed codex: "It saddens me greatly that we must take arms against the peoples of the galaxy. By their deaths, they deny themselves the liberation that is only to be found in total surrender to the Greater Good." I might be cynical, and perceiving things which are not there, but I get the message "we only kill people who don't surrender to the Greater Good"

Nearly every other quote I can find is along the lines of "Victory through Unity" and the message that "joining with us is unity, and disunity is not acceptable".... but maybe I'm just being overly cynical .

Don't continue with that argument, this is not the place.

Yes they do attack people who refuse the greater good but the point is they still give you a chance to join. Every other faction will just kill you. Another major point is that joining the greater good doesn't force you to make any large changes. All you to do is contribute something (not neccessarily anything large) you still retain control of your planet. All imperial planets already give tithes this wouldn't change. The only change is that planets inhabitants gain control of the planet instead of the IoM.

Oh are we still doing this? Go and make another thread if it's that big an issue, but this isn't the place.

I don't think they should change the basic Firewarrior or vehicle look too much, but maybe streamline the battlesuits and give them a bit more variety.

Just a few pointers on Tau,

They don't use "mind control". The Ethereals use pheromones from their "crystal organs" located in their heads. Thus any pheromone based race is easily overcome by the Greater Good. Vespid are an insectial race and surely use pheromones but, they have a social order. The tau give the leaders of Vespid helms that will allow the Tau to command them and the other Vespid warriors as well. This would most likely mean that if the Tau ever did fall to Chaos (unlikely as they "are barely visible in the warp"), they would fall to Slaanesh.

As for the "Grimdark" of Tau...

I'm not sure if this counts as a spoiler but...



The Tau are a pet project of the Eldar in an attempt to recreate the human race, because both Humanity and themselves had failed to live up to the Ancient Ones grand plans for the destruction of Chaos.

It's not a spoiler because it isn't fact, it's speculation.

Yeah I don't think the link between eladr and Tau is ever confirmed, and neither is the Vespid command helms. They are just suggestions. As for the pheromones some sources say they are completely true others say they aren't. Unfrotunately Tau fluff is full of contradictions.

I think it is entirely up to how you paint them and want your kadre to feel, If i played a tau army I would make my own commander a renegade similar to farsight and I would show this in the paint job by having gritty battle damaged armor as my kadre doesn't have anywhere to turn to for replenishment and re-enforcement.

Well the tau seem to be trending to getting darker. I hope they don't go to far though. If they ever lose the water caste, I won't enjoy them even half as much.

Really they also need to handle the darker aspect better. They tried to make them into space communist and space fascist and it just fits so poorly that a lot of people don't buy it as cannon. I think they might work better as space "Britain in the colonial phase".

Technologically, lets see some new stuff. No warp tech, but some new things to remind us that the tau actually advance.

They also need an excuse to show up in more places. All the other races are spread out, but the tau are stuck in one tiny box. That makes finding ways to include them hard. Maybe they tau could have something like sleeper teams that act a little like space hulks.

They shouldn't just get IoM style warp travel, but maybe they can start building giant catapult relays. (Like the web way only with ships.)

Good ideas, Britain in the colonial Phase is much better fit than both Space Communists and Grimarkyness.
No Warp Tech, that needs to be key part about them, but certainly something that improves their ability to zim around their little pocket.

Maybe they should add something like recon teams, they go out to gather information in secret, hitching a ride on Imperial vessels.

It is after all a "grim darkness of the far future".
Tau should be a little grimdark after all. No race is perfect and no race will just stand and let other conquer and prosper.
If Matt Ward is doing their next codex, you can expect grimdark Tau - like the Khornite knights.

Brother Coa wrote:It is after all a "grim darkness of the far future".
Tau should be a little grimdark after all. No race is perfect and no race will just stand and let other conquer and prosper.
If Matt Ward is doing their next codex, you can expect grimdark Tau - like the Khornite knights.

But whether that grimdark affects their aesthetics is a different thing.
Humanity is under siege in dozens of key locations and millions die each day. That is gonna have an effect on a society. The Tau haven't experienced this kind of darkness yet, and even the experiences they have had aren't enough to shake their belief in efficiency over ceremony.

Seriously, I don't get where everyone is getting that Farsight is "evil". Whilst Farsight may or may not be under the influence of Chaos, this much is speculation, he has simply had his eyes opened to the unwillingness of the rest of the Galaxy to bend to the Greater Good.

From Farsight's entry in the Tau Empire dex:

"Each must find their own way. If those in our heartland had witnessed the savageries of the void as have we they would know this. The hand of each of the great starfarers is turned against the other; none will join their strength together just to see their ancient enemies prosper. Neither should we.

Vaktathi has it right. Farsight is (whilst a very extreme example) ahead of the curve, he represents the next logical step for the Tau and their ideology. They will continue to subjagate the races of the galaxy and browbeat them in a "it's for your own good" way. Although Farsight takes this too far (there were rumours floating around of him having some very... racist views when it came to the allied races, hence why he can't have them in his armies), the Tau will have to accept the rest of the Galaxy is not prepared to buddy up with them and will have to convince them with military superiority.

Thing is, Farsight is a hero to the people, but a rebel to the High Command. They know he is still needed and remain in intermittent contact with the enclaves (read the "War of Dakka" story in the Ork codex). He is far from "evil" in any sense in 40k (ATM )

Grimtuff wrote:Although Farsight takes this too far (there were rumours floating around of him having some very... racist views when it came to the allied races, hence why he can't have them in his armies)

Actually, the reason they always talked about it was that since he's not part of the Tau's "Greater Good" he's unable to get access to the alien allies and newer tech due to the fact that he "cut communication with the Tau as a whole".

Brother Coa wrote:It is after all a "grim darkness of the far future".
Tau should be a little grimdark after all. No race is perfect and no race will just stand and let other conquer and prosper.
If Matt Ward is doing their next codex, you can expect grimdark Tau - like the Khornite knights.

They don't necessarily have to be Grimadark, the whole point of the armies existence is to be a non-grimdark force.
What's the Khornite Knights?

Kanluwen wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:Although Farsight takes this too far (there were rumours floating around of him having some very... racist views when it came to the allied races, hence why he can't have them in his armies)

Actually, the reason they always talked about it was that since he's not part of the Tau's "Greater Good" he's unable to get access to the alien allies and newer tech due to the fact that he "cut communication with the Tau as a whole".

Which goes directly against the info given about the War of Dakka in the Ork dex, which is set in 815.M41, Farsight split from the Empire in 760.M41. The Tau High Command sent in reinforcements to evacuate him and his armies from the warzone.