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Brazil wouldnt, however they would very likely close their ports (lengthening our supply lines considerably), make it difficult to keep South Africa on our side and worst of all can happily ping RN assets and feed the data to Argentina.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Orlanth wrote:Janthkin, sorry to see you arent starting well.
Its something some of us want to discuss and was well behaved. Its a sickening travesty what has happened, and it might not matter wherever Janthkin comes from, but it matters to us, so a measure of respect for the topic is required, to give it a good chance to be aired.
Using the words "sickening travesty" should be used to describe the OT and its members, not a particular thread.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Medium of Death wrote:Negotiations in order to find a peaceful solution???? The current situation is peaceful. The Falklands want to remain British, sit down Argentina.
As for Obama?
What a two faced fether. Over here giving it all 'special relationship' this and 'close allies' that.
This is following on from his comment of Israel going back to pre 6 day war boundries.
He sure knows how to keep the USA's allies sweet.
Maybe there was a misinterpretation. The sensor kicked "Faklkands" thinking it was discussing "Guy Fawkes."
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SilverMK2 wrote:I'd move to the Falklands so I could get £1m to move back to the UK
Now thats capital thinking!
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:Why would Brazil attack the Falkland Islands?
Its like deja vu all over again. Didn't we have this discussion, it always ends with samba dance. What am I saying? bring on the samba!
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2011/06/13 12:20:43
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Using the words "sickening travesty" should be used to describe the OT and its members, not a particular thread.
Actually its my definition of the backstabbing we are getting from Obama. Are there Argentine soldiers in Ganners? No. On a realpolitik level there is a reason to just stay out of this issue. On a level of justice to support the Argentine claims is to disregard the concepts of democracy and self determination.
From either perspective of justice or diplomacy Obamas actions are not defendable. Obama could have said, we will remain neutral and the South Americans countries would have respected that, its not a 'pro-British' stance.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
It would have been nice and simple to either:
1) say nothing. Wow how hard is that? Evidently really hard for people who don't know when the shut the hell up.
or
2) say "we look forward to helping any regional discussions designed to lessen tensions in the region."
Now personally I would have liked this:
"Back off Argentina the Ring er, the Oil is MINE! Let loose the Nazgul!"
As I said in light of Obama's success internationally, sleep soundly Britain, sleep soundly indeed.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/13 12:32:56
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Albatross wrote:
Until 2015. Is there any reason to assume that Argentina won't rack up massive debts (again) and have to default on them (again), wrecking their economy (again)? Or are we just assuming that the graph just goes up forever?
No, we're assuming your public debt is higher than Spain's as a percent of GDP, and that you got out of default concerns by reason of commercial opinion.
...in addition to a plan to reduce our deficit by the end of parliament, a plan which has the endorsement of the IMF.
There are plenty of scenarios involving the Falklands trading hands, and most of them have nothing at all to do with the people living there. They're irrelevant There's less than 3500 of them, they can easily be killed if necessary.
Ah, I see. We're playing 'Fantasy Wars' again. This thread suddenly became unworthy of my time. And term is over.
Albatross wrote:
Argentina has no legitimate claim on the islands...
Besides we have guns and want the islands?
...which can be countered with 'we have more guns and you can't HAVE the islands'. Aside from that, there isn't a cat in hell's chance that they would receive any sort of any sort of UN mandate to invade UK sovereign territory. Think about it for a second. Actually, given the precedent the US has set, we'd probably be within our rights to pre-emptively attack Argentina. They've shown clear intent, as far as acquiring the territory is concerned. THAT is about as likely as Argentina (and a coalition of the willing) attacking UK territory again.
They have money, and will eventually have allies willing to back them up, and the UK will eventually care more about spending money on the NHS than the military.
...or the reverse will happen. It's just conjecture on your part, and posturing on theirs.
Albatross wrote:
In addition, the idea that any other South American country would risk war with the UK over the islands is ludicrous. Absolutely ludicrous.
If you went to war with Brazil over this you would lose, badly, because no one would help you and lots of people would help them.
So Brazil is attacking nuclear-armed NATO members with impunity now? You're high, admit it. Either way, I'm not interested in playing Fantasy Wars like some nerdy WWII fanboy. Not my bag. I prefer the real world.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Incidentally, you people really are freaked out about Brazil, aren't you?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/13 14:56:54
Incidentally, you people really are freaked out about Brazil, aren't you?
No, just the unrefined awesome sauce that is Carnival, Baby!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Albatross wrote:
Until 2015. Is there any reason to assume that Argentina won't rack up massive debts (again) and have to default on them (again), wrecking their economy (again)? Or are we just assuming that the graph just goes up forever?
No, we're assuming your public debt is higher than Spain's as a percent of GDP, and that you got out of default concerns by reason of commercial opinion.
...in addition to a plan to reduce our deficit by the end of parliament, a plan which has the endorsement of the IMF.
There are plenty of scenarios involving the Falklands trading hands, and most of them have nothing at all to do with the people living there. They're irrelevant There's less than 3500 of them, they can easily be killed if necessary.
Ah, I see. We're playing 'Fantasy Wars' again. This thread suddenly became unworthy of my time. And term is over.
Yeah I lost interest at that point as well. We can sit here and postulate all kinds of stuff, its the OT after all. But I prefer to keep with what's at least something like likely.
And the mass genocide of all the Falkland Islanders is.. well... yeah.
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
And the mass genocide of all the Falkland Islanders is.. well... yeah.
...and the point that they/we are 'irrelevant' apparently.
Dont worry, its actually an attempt to goad British forum members and not a serious attempt to post anything contributory. Not worth responding to Matty.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
If we're playing the Fantasy Wars game, whereby Argentina is suddenly prepared to expend the amount of resources necessary to capture the islands (considering the fact any invasion would have it nowhere near as easy as the last one, with the substantial beefing up of defence forces there), we can also imagine the UK saying something along the lines of 'Give them back or we nuke your capital', or fitting out the merchant fleet and navy over the period of a year or so, and taking them back by force.
Fantasy Wars is great fun to argue and defend, as theoretically anything is possible, feasible, and defensible, as you can change your imaginary circumstances to fit anything.
Ketara wrote:If we're playing the Fantasy Wars game, whereby Argentina is suddenly prepared to expend the amount of resources necessary to capture the islands (considering the fact any invasion would have it nowhere near as easy as the last one, with the substantial beefing up of defence forces there), we can also imagine the UK saying something along the lines of 'Give them back or we nuke your capital', or fitting out the merchant fleet and navy over the period of a year or so, and taking them back by force.
Fantasy Wars is great fun to argue and defend, as theoretically anything is possible, feasible, and defensible, as you can change your imaginary circumstances to fit anything.
I agree about Fantasy Wars/Fantasy Politics being fun to ague, so long as its not heated or intentionally derisory. So for example I will not write off the courage of Argentine soldiers, it might be fun to do so, and comparatively accurate when compared to who they would face but nevertheless neither fair nor true.
Some comments then.
1. Nukes are not an option, if we launch some we will lose indirectly.
2. The best defence will be an early defence. Argentina got some credence between the intial invasion in 1982 was bloodless. The local miilita mobilised to fight but the governor ordered them to stand down lest a massacre occured. While that was respionsible had some islanders died all these claims would have been silenced internationally long ago. Argentina to get anywhere must be able to repeat the bloodless invasion, taking the islands is possible. Taking the islands without being seen as a bloody agressor is not, and Argentina would likely either have to bomb very heavily or take high casualties. both are unfavourable.
3. Argentina can wait and use persistent 'dripping tap' diplomacy. This can work right up until the point when the garrison militia is upgraded. The UK can afford to keep the islands even if it cannot afford to garrison them. Hand over enough hardware to the islanders and argentina will be forced to invade against armed resistance from the islanders - a bloody invasion again.
4. Race politics is likely to be a decider. The Argentine position is weak, but they are akin to other Spanish speaking countiries in the Americas, wheras the Uk is not. Thus the justice of the position is not relevant to them. The US with a rising Hispanic pooulation of their own and diplomatic ties with central and south America to consider will not support the UK. It is not unreasonable for the US to continue to remain neutral, but Obama doesnt think that way. For a start he is personally Anglophobic, I am pretty sure than despite the meetings with the Queen etc the current British government considers Obama hostile.
Both sides can win politically but the full hands have not been played. Many poltical tools the Uk can be using are silent, held in reserve. Argentina is showing a fuller hand, but their policy is different and is based on continued persistence.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Albatross wrote:
Until 2015. Is there any reason to assume that Argentina won't rack up massive debts (again) and have to default on them (again), wrecking their economy (again)? Or are we just assuming that the graph just goes up forever?
No, we're assuming your public debt is higher than Spain's as a percent of GDP, and that you got out of default concerns by reason of commercial opinion.
...in addition to a plan to reduce our deficit by the end of parliament, a plan which has the endorsement of the IMF.
There are plenty of scenarios involving the Falklands trading hands, and most of them have nothing at all to do with the people living there. They're irrelevant There's less than 3500 of them, they can easily be killed if necessary.
Ah, I see. We're playing 'Fantasy Wars' again. This thread suddenly became unworthy of my time. And term is over.
Yeah I lost interest at that point as well. We can sit here and postulate all kinds of stuff, its the OT after all. But I prefer to keep with what's at least something like likely.
And the mass genocide of all the Falkland Islanders is.. well... yeah.
Well, as the Falklans seems to be this side the surface of the moon in terms of natural plants, how about we just give them some palm trees? Palm trees are like wiener dogs, you just can't but help smile.
But yea everything you said.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ketara wrote:If we're playing the Fantasy Wars game, whereby Argentina is suddenly prepared to expend the amount of resources necessary to capture the islands (considering the fact any invasion would have it nowhere near as easy as the last one, with the substantial beefing up of defence forces there), we can also imagine the UK saying something along the lines of 'Give them back or we nuke your capital', or fitting out the merchant fleet and navy over the period of a year or so, and taking them back by force.
Fantasy Wars is great fun to argue and defend, as theoretically anything is possible, feasible, and defensible, as you can change your imaginary circumstances to fit anything.
Now you're starting to think like a Frazzled.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/06/13 17:27:36
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Ok, if we must play fantasy war and anything is valid, I will squeeze back into my uniform, strech my green beret back over my fatter head and row over to the Falklands in my mates canoe.
At which point the Argies will shriek "Its that nails bloke that the Taliban were all correctly scared of!" and I will kill their leader with a headbutt of such ferocity his grandad will feel it back in Buenos Ares.
Then I will be lauded by the Argies as a living God, be made the supreme overlord of Argentina and I will bang the reigning Miss Argentina so hard, every woman within a 200 mile radius of her orgasm will become instantly pregnant.
After that ill go home for tea and stickies with the Queen, and she will degree that everyone has to call their children King Matty for the next 12 months. Even if they are girls.
Did I do it right?
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Ok, if we must play fantasy war and anything is valid, I will squeeze back into my uniform, strech my green beret back over my fatter head and row over to the Falklands in my mates canoe.
***No one wants to see that giant beer belly torturing shirt buttons!
At which point the Argies will shriek "Its that nails bloke that the Taliban were all correctly scared of!" and I will kill their leader with a headbutt of such ferocity his grandad will feel it back in Buenos Ares.
*** There’s a comedian named Arj something. I now have images of you in an unbuttoned shirt head butting a stoned comedian.
Then I will be lauded by the Argies as a living God, be made the supreme overlord of Argentina and I will bang the reigning Miss Argentina so hard, every woman within a 200 mile radius of her orgasm will become instantly pregnant.
***I think your better half vetoes this portion of the fantasy.
After that ill go home for tea and stickies with the Queen, and she will degree that everyone has to call their children King Matty for the next 12 months. Even if they are girls.
Did I do it right?
**Yea pretty much. Don’t forget to stop over on your way back to play fetch with TBone. Do it in the den though, he can’t really see well and goes by the sound of it on the tile.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Hell no. Its a fething disaster waiting to happen.
Every girl within 200 miles pregnant with Argie half-mattys, think of the consequences when they start growing up.
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
Hell no. Its a fething disaster waiting to happen.
Every girl within 200 miles pregnant with Argie half-mattys, think of the consequences when they start growing up.
Well, we could raise some kind of Argie-Gurkha regiment in about 18-20 years' time and retake the Empire
Totally up for this idea...
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
Hell no. Its a fething disaster waiting to happen.
Every girl within 200 miles pregnant with Argie half-mattys, think of the consequences when they start growing up.
Well, we could raise some kind of Argie-Gurkha regiment in about 18-20 years' time and retake the Empire
Meh, don't waste this opportunity. You're not looking at the Big Picture.
Empire yes, but...
Galactic Empire!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Albatross wrote:Since we're playing Fantasy Wars, how about we nuke Argentina, then nuke all adjacent countries on a D6 roll of 4+?
no no, we've moved on to a much more important issue. Exactly how many Mattyrm/Ghurkha clones would it in fact take to conquer Latin America, or mayhaps Coruscant?
Who would win-Mattrym/Ghurkha or Sauron?
Is it true that James T. Kirk is in fact a Mattrym/Ghurkha clone? Or is he the klingons?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
Albatross wrote:
...in addition to a plan to reduce our deficit by the end of parliament, a plan which has the endorsement of the IMF.
Which are irrelevant outside of commercial opinion.
I'm distinguishing between opinion of debt and actual debt.
Albatross wrote:
Ah, I see. We're playing 'Fantasy Wars' again. This thread suddenly became unworthy of my time. And term is over.
This whole thread was about fantasy the moment support for negotiations became the same thing as support for the Argentinian claim to the Falkands.
Albatross wrote:
...which can be countered with 'we have more guns and you can't HAVE the islands'.
But your guns are more than 6000 miles away. If Argentina was willing to pay any cost in a war for the Falklands, you would lose.
Albatross wrote:
...or the reverse will happen. It's just conjecture on your part, and posturing on theirs.
Do you really think that, given the choice between universal healthcare and the military your average UK citizen is going to choose the military? Its not like you're under imminent threat, and while I am conjecturing, the point is that you aren't. You're saying the Falklands will always be British (to paraphrase), and you have no basis for that claim.
Albatross wrote:
So Brazil is attacking nuclear-armed NATO members with impunity now?
Who said anything about attacking Britain? Going to war doesn't mean attacking Britain, it means attacking certain British forces that might be of particular importance because of location, intent, and deeds.
Albatross wrote:
You're high, admit it. Either way, I'm not interested in playing Fantasy Wars like some nerdy WWII fanboy. Not my bag. I prefer the real world.
The real world where nothing has been done accept engage the idea that Argentina and Britain should negotiate?
Albatross wrote:
Incidentally, you people really are freaked out about Brazil, aren't you?
No, we simply appreciate that they produce a lot of stuff, have a large population, and happen to be in the Americas.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mattyrm wrote:
Yeah I lost interest at that point as well. We can sit here and postulate all kinds of stuff, its the OT after all. But I prefer to keep with what's at least something like likely.
And the mass genocide of all the Falkland Islanders is.. well... yeah.
The point isn't that genocide is likely, the point is that there aren't many people living there, and no one in power is really all that concerned with what they want. The UK only uses the opinion of people in the Falklands to strengthen its claim to the islands because they want the resources (and the domestic public opinion boost that comes with holding the islands), and know that influencing international public opinion helps in them maintain it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Orlanth wrote:
From either perspective of justice or diplomacy Obamas actions are not defendable. Obama could have said, we will remain neutral and the South Americans countries would have respected that, its not a 'pro-British' stance.
Justice is irrelevant except as it applies to diplomacy, and this is essentially a neutral action as regards the actual territorial claim to the islands.
Saying that we will remain neutral can easily be, and has often been, interpreted as a pro-British stance; particularly by people that make arguments akin to the ones you're making right now. Which is to say, reactionary, emotional ones.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/06/14 03:22:05
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
@dogma - You saw the part where I said this whole thing was a storm in a teacup, right? I don't actually think we are going to war with Argentina over the Falklands, and I'm not that upset that the Americans aren't sending in the bombers over an Argentine request for dialogue.
As far as I can recall, I was responding to issues raised by other posters.
Albatross wrote:@dogma - You saw the part where I said this whole thing was a storm in a teacup, right? I don't actually think we are going to war with Argentina over the Falklands, and I'm not that upset that the Americans aren't sending in the bombers over an Argentine request for dialogue.
I did not, but that does explain why your opinions were seemingly uncharacteristic.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
purplefood wrote:Such CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT genius...
x2
Dakka Bingo! By Ouze "You are the best at flying things"-Kanluwen
"Further proof that Purple is a fething brilliant super villain " -KingCracker
"Purp.. Im pretty sure I have a gun than can reach you...."-Nicorex
"That's not really an apocalypse. That's just Europe."-Grakmar
"almost as good as winning free cake at the tea drinking contest for an Englishman." -Reds8n
Seal up your lips and give no words but mum.
Equip, Reload. Do violence.
Watch for Gerry.
Now I've only done a quick scan on the subject via Wiki, so I'm not looking to cause any offense, due to me missing something. However why is it ok for Obama to make these suggestions, when the US lays claim to Hawaii, Alaska and Guantanamo Bay?
Live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about his religion. Respect others in their views and demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life. Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and of service to your people. When your time comes to die, be not like those whose hearts are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes they weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again in a different way. Sing your death song, and die like a hero going home.
Lt. Rorke - Act of Valor
I can now be found on Facebook under the name of Wulfstan Design
