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The Flesh Tearers had a pretty terrible reputation at one point as well, though Seth's taking steps to try and get rid of that - steps that largely consist of fighting isolated, so that they don't accidentally stab their allies, as they've been known to do.

Melissia wrote:

xXSir MontyXx wrote:The Guard have a lot of man power, but a Space Marine is equivalent to MANY enemies. A chapter holding 1000 space marines can hold almost anything it wants to.

Unless the navy decides to bombard them from orbit.

Sure, a space marine might be worth 20 guardsmen. Or even 100. but Guard regularly deploys in waves of hundreds of thousands to millions at a time anyway. The guard deploys more power than an entire chapter holds on a regular basis.



Marines are but a tiny, infinitesimal fraction of the total power to prosecute war that the Imperium of Man has.

And yet there is so much put upon the shoulders of the Astartes in the fluff that one is forced to conclude that... they really do live up to the hype. It's not a stretch to assume that perhaps the "worth 20 guardsmen or 100" might only refer to physical strength - that with time, training and experience, and the equipment provided render force multiplies needed to make an Astartes that much greater then general humanity. I'd also wager that with the more Astartes presence the force multiplier grows larger and larger, such that a full chapter of marines really can accomplish everything they are attributed as having done, or why Astartes legions formed the backbone of the great crusade until near the end of it, when expansion meant there where physically just too few marines to continue unrestrained all directions expansion conquests.

Carlovonsexron wrote:And yet there is so much put upon the shoulders of the Astartes in the fluff

No there isn't. It's on the shoulders of the guard.

On the OP, why is Space Marines as the "protectors of humanity" so strange?

They defend the Imperium to, with all others. Why is so strange that they are defenders?

If you are regarding on "they aren't present everywhere, and the Guard is real protector" let my tell you few things:

1- Guard is primary defense force, good for defense in many ways.
2- Space Marines help the Guard when the help is needed.
3- There are things in the galaxy that even Guard can't kill.
4- I forgotten what I was about to say...

Anyway, you get the point. I hope.

Brother Coa wrote:On the OP, why is Space Marines as the "protectors of humanity" so strange?

They defend the Imperium to, with all others. Why is so strange that they are defenders?

If you are regarding on "they aren't present everywhere, and the Guard is real protector" let my tell you few things:

1- Guard is primary defense force, good for defense in many ways.
2- Space Marines help the Guard when the help is needed.
3- There are things in the galaxy that even Guard can't kill.
4- I forgotten what I was about to say...

Anyway, you get the point. I hope.

It's not that.
He said SM were the only thing standing between the Imperium and annihilation.
This is not true.
Guard are the true defenders of humanity.
SM kill big things and Guard kill everything else.
Without the Guard the Imperium would fall to pieces.

purplefood wrote:
It's not that.
He said SM were the only thing standing between the Imperium and annihilation.
This is not true.
Guard are the true defenders of humanity.
SM kill big things and Guard kill everything else.
Without the Guard the Imperium would fall to pieces.

He is right at some point, Guard can't fight daemon incursion - they would all fall to Chaos.
Without the Grey Knights, the Imperial population would fall to Chaos in a matter of months.
Guard can't fight Tyranids, Space Marines can as they use hit and run tactics on their ships.
Guard can't fight Eldar, as they are to mobile for them.
Guard can't fight Necrons, again Space Marines are needed.

Guard is good against Orks, rebels, Dark Eldar ( since they would never attack heavily defended and stable front ), Tau.
Against Tyranids Guard is only good at holding as long as they can. Since the war of attrition suits the Nids.
Against Eldar they are useless, as the Eldar just run around, destroy armor and slaughter Guardsman.
Against Necrons.... We all know what happened at Damnos and to 23'rd Cadian.
Against Chaos... they can win against standard Chaos Space Marines attack. But against Daemons, no no no...

Don't get me wrong, Guard is awesome. But even they can't kill some things.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
It's not that.
He said SM were the only thing standing between the Imperium and annihilation.
This is not true.
Guard are the true defenders of humanity.
SM kill big things and Guard kill everything else.
Without the Guard the Imperium would fall to pieces.

He is right at some point, Guard can't fight daemon incursion - they would all fall to Chaos.
Without the Grey Knights, the Imperial population would fall to Chaos in a matter of months.
Guard can't fight Tyranids, Space Marines can as they use hit and run tactics on their ships.
Guard can't fight Eldar, as they are to mobile for them.
Guard can't fight Necrons, again Space Marines are needed.

Guard is good against Orks, rebels, Dark Eldar ( since they would never attack heavily defended and stable front ), Tau.
Against Tyranids Guard is only good at holding as long as they can. Since the war of attrition suits the Nids.
Against Eldar they are useless, as the Eldar just run around, destroy armor and slaughter Guardsman.
Against Necrons.... We all know what happened at Damnos and to 23'rd Cadian.
Against Chaos... they can win against standard Chaos Space Marines attack. But against Daemons, no no no...

Don't get me wrong, Guard is awesome. But even they can't kill some things.

SM can't fight Necrons. The World Engine, Damnos, and the death of the Emperor's Swords shows that.
Guard have beat Eldar on multiple occasions. Tallarn regiments have engaed Eldar on numerous occasions and have won.
Guard can fight Tyranids. Hive Fleet Scarabus (Something similar to that cannot rmember the name right now) was devasted by the Cadian 5th without a single company being lost.
Guard can fight Chaos, daemonic incursions may be a bit tricky but even SM have problems with them. GK are built from the ground up to fight them so go figure.

You are grossly over-estimating the amount of work GKs do.

Guard are there to meet pretty much every alien race imaginable and repel them. SM jump in if the situation goes bad or they feel they can do some good.

purplefood wrote:
SM can't fight Necrons. The World Engine, Damnos, and the death of the Emperor's Swords shows that.
Guard have beat Eldar on multiple occasions. Tallarn regiments have engaed Eldar on numerous occasions and have won.
Guard can fight Tyranids. Hive Fleet Scarabus (Something similar to that cannot rmember the name right now) was devasted by the Cadian 5th without a single company being lost.
Guard can fight Chaos, daemonic incursions may be a bit tricky but even SM have problems with them. GK are built from the ground up to fight them so go figure.

You are grossly over-estimating the amount of work GKs do.

Guard are there to meet pretty much every alien race imaginable and repel them. SM jump in if the situation goes bad or they feel they can do some good.

Black Templars destroyed one Necron tomb world ( Damnation Crusade ). Aldo Necrons are strong, Marines can defeat them if they are not fully risen ( like on Kronus or Kaurava ).
Just Tallarn and Creed defeat them, in almost every other engagement the Guard was slaughtered. And when Eldar use Avatar it's even more harder for Guard to win.
Even Tau defeated the Tyranids ( Gorgon ), the Guard still can't stop Levithian. And they barely stooped Behemoth and Kraken ( also Kraken was stooped thanks to Eldar sacrifice ).
I said that they can fight Chaos and win without problem. As for Daemons... comes one great daemon, use some kind of warp woddo and all Guardsman are serving Chaos now ( Marines have a protection against it as do Sisters of Battle).
GK are important, and they do what they can. But then can fight daemons with ease while can't stand against Ork WARGHHH!!!!
I didn't say that Guard suck, I only said that some enemies even they can't kill.

Brother Coa wrote:He is right at some point, Guard can't fight daemon incursion - they would all fall to Chaos.
Without the Grey Knights, the Imperial population would fall to Chaos in a matter of months.
Guard can't fight Tyranids, Space Marines can as they use hit and run tactics on their ships.
Guard can't fight Eldar, as they are to mobile for them.
Guard can't fight Necrons, again Space Marines are needed.

1: Yes, they can. And they do. It's a hard fight sure, but they still do it. Grey Knights can't be everywhere.
2: That's just wankery right there. Just no.
3: What the hell are you talking about? yes they can. AND THEY DO. All the freakin' time. The Imperial Guard wins FAR more victories against Tyranids than Marines do.
4: Yes they can. And they do. Eldar are hard to hit but put enough lasbolts or high explosvie munitions on them and they'll die.
5: Yes they can. And they do. To quote a famous Krieger: "Your foe is well-equipped, well-trained, battle-hardened. He believes his gods are on his side. Let him believe what he will. We have the tanks on ours."



No matter how much you scream otherwise, the Imperial Guard are the first and last line of defense for the Imperium, and they win enough wars against every other army that the Imperium is maintained instead of crumbling.

Melissia wrote:
1: Yes, they can. And they do. It's a hard fight sure, but they still do it. Grey Knights can't be everywhere.
2: That's just wankery right there. Just no.
3: What the hell are you talking about? yes they can. AND THEY DO. All the freakin' time. The Imperial Guard wins FAR more victories against Tyranids than Marines do.
4: Yes they can. And they do. Eldar are hard to hit but put enough lasbolts or high explosvie munitions on them and they'll die.
5: Yes they can. And they do. To quote a famous Krieger: "Your foe is well-equipped, well-trained, battle-hardened. He believes his gods are on his side. Let him believe what he will. We have the tanks on ours."
No matter how much you scream otherwise, the Imperial Guard are the first and last line of defense for the Imperium, and they win battles against every other army.

1. They can, until they became corrupted and start shutting at their allies.
2. Isn't that said about them? That without their protection Imperium would fall in a matter of months?
3. I know they do, I am talking about major Hive Fleets. Only Marines where able to successfully defeat them so far ( Macragge, Ichar IV, Tarsis Ultra ).
4. I also know that, but Eldar then use teleports and Avatar. Guard can defeat them, but very, very hard.
5. That Krieg solder wasn't on Damnos... Then again, Sturnn has defeated the Necrons on Lorn V - but using a Titan.

Imperial Guard is the first and last line of defense in most cases. I am just trying to point that Guard can't kill everything. Why didn't they kill Daemon Prince in 1'st war for Armageddon?
Guard and Sisters are to win wars, Marines are to win battles and to kill things that can't be killed or that die hard.
And last line of defense will not be Imperial Guard. It will be surviving Space Marines with Custodians on Terra in front of the Imperial palace.

Brother Coa wrote:

Melissia wrote:
1: Yes, they can. And they do. It's a hard fight sure, but they still do it. Grey Knights can't be everywhere.
2: That's just wankery right there. Just no.
3: What the hell are you talking about? yes they can. AND THEY DO. All the freakin' time. The Imperial Guard wins FAR more victories against Tyranids than Marines do.
4: Yes they can. And they do. Eldar are hard to hit but put enough lasbolts or high explosvie munitions on them and they'll die.
5: Yes they can. And they do. To quote a famous Krieger: "Your foe is well-equipped, well-trained, battle-hardened. He believes his gods are on his side. Let him believe what he will. We have the tanks on ours."
No matter how much you scream otherwise, the Imperial Guard are the first and last line of defense for the Imperium, and they win battles against every other army.

1. They can, until they became corrupted and start shutting at their allies.
2. Isn't that said about them? That without their protection Imperium would fall in a matter of months?
3. I know they do, I am talking about major Hive Fleets. Only Marines where able to successfully defeat them so far ( Macragge, Ichar IV, Tarsis Ultra ).
4. I also know that, but Eldar then use teleports and Avatar. Guard can defeat them, but very, very hard.
5. That Krieg solder wasn't on Damnos... Then again, Sturnn has defeated the Necrons on Lorn V - but using a Titan.

Imperial Guard is the first and last line of defense in most cases. I am just trying to point that Guard can't kill everything. Why didn't they kill Daemon Prince in 1'st war for Armageddon?
Guard and Sisters are to win wars, Marines are to win battles and to kill things that can't be killed or that die hard.
And last line of defense will not be Imperial Guard. It will be surviving Space Marines with Custodians on Terra in front of the Imperial palace.

It sure seems like you are kicking and screaming to deny the Guard being worth the money spent to arm them. But as to Guard being easily corrupted i think you have played DOW II retribution WAY to much because first sign of corruption a Commissar(they are attached to all regiments for discipline purposes) isolates and if needed KILLS THE MOTHER fether! Guard are more disciplined than fluff gives them credit for and frankly very little fluff makes them out to be spineless little heretics just waiting for a chance to serve Chaos.

Again Guard kill daemons just fine; plasma weaponry and good ole gunpowder will screw anything over if hit enough.

Again fluff is to be taken lightly; because as we have told you FLUFF EXAGGERATES!

Again eldar may teleport and use avatars but the guard has flamers, plasma weaponry, and more munitions than you could(or would want to) shake a stick at.

If it moves the Guard has enough munitions to put it down in so many bitz the Orks would not find anything salvageable. Also i believe Ciaphas cain and his Valhallans fought and won against Necrons. Haven't read the book(skipped to three for reasons of another thread) but that says Guard can fight necrons.

So when the status quo is broken and the imperium is beaten back to terra there will be no guardsmen protecting the Emperor?

Edit: addition to the munitions/corruption bit. They are well disciplined, they aren't some rabble militia raised in time of need they are SOLDIERS. professional, drilled, disciplined, and loyal. Corruption is very low on worries in the Guard because when it does happen they handle it well.

For what it's worth, Abnett makes the point in the Gaunt's Ghosts series that the response to Chaos Marines for all but the cream of the crop of the Imperial Guard is to flee. And Gaunt doesn't blame them as, in his words, the Imperial Guard isn't equipped to handle Traitor Marines.

Of course, seven or eight books later, he has a ten-man squad take out five Chaos Marines using nothing but moxy and guile, so, as always, fluff contradicts itself.

Either way, it's pretty stupid to assume that any one organization is responsible for the survival of the Imperium. The Guard would crumble without the Navy, and the Navy fights its fair share of epic, humanity-saving battles. Marines don't sweat the small stuff and largely let the Guard handle the planetary rebellions and fights against cultists, showing up where they're actually needed. The chances of winning a campaign against any force that includes Titans is slim without the Mechanicum. Etc.

Varrick wrote:
It sure seems like you are kicking and screaming to deny the Guard being worth the money spent to arm them. But as to Guard being easily corrupted i think you have played DOW II retribution WAY to much because first sign of corruption a Commissar(they are attached to all regiments for discipline purposes) isolates and if needed KILLS THE MOTHER fether! Guard are more disciplined than fluff gives them credit for and frankly very little fluff makes them out to be spineless little heretics just waiting for a chance to serve Chaos.

Again Guard kill daemons just fine; plasma weaponry and good ole gunpowder will screw anything over if hit enough.

Again fluff is to be taken lightly; because as we have told you FLUFF EXAGGERATES!

Again eldar may teleport and use avatars but the guard has flamers, plasma weaponry, and more munitions than you could(or would want to) shake a stick at.

If it moves the Guard has enough munitions to put it down in so many bitz the Orks would not find anything salvageable. Also i believe Ciaphas cain and his Valhallans fought and won against Necrons. Haven't read the book(skipped to three for reasons of another thread) but that says Guard can fight necrons.

So when the status quo is broken and the imperium is beaten back to terra there will be no guardsmen protecting the Emperor?

Edit: addition to the munitions/corruption bit. They are well disciplined, they aren't some rabble militia raised in time of need they are SOLDIERS. professional, drilled, disciplined, and loyal. Corruption is very low on worries in the Guard because when it does happen they handle it well.

God Emperor.....

I am only saying that there are some things that Guard can't kill ( like Daemon Princes and fallen Primarchs for example ). And they fight against some enemies with such might that in the end the victory is sour ( millions lost, thousands of tanks and ships destroyed ). And yes, in the end Guard will not defend the Emperor, it will defend last Imperial worlds and their population while Space Marines will defend Terra and the Emperor. What's left of the Guard will protect Human remnants as they flee to the area of space where can they rebuild and survive while last of the Space Marines fight on Terra around the Imperial palace.

And what do you all trying to prove? That Imperium doesn't need Space Marines?

And solders can't kill super-natural beings. It will be like regular G.I. kills Satan.
and edit: fluff is a fluff is a fluff, even if it stats that Guard is fighting with a balloon - it is still fluff.

Space Marines doesn't play the most important part of beatin the Tyranids by the way... the imperial Navy does.

Brother Coa wrote:

Varrick wrote:
It sure seems like you are kicking and screaming to deny the Guard being worth the money spent to arm them. But as to Guard being easily corrupted i think you have played DOW II retribution WAY to much because first sign of corruption a Commissar(they are attached to all regiments for discipline purposes) isolates and if needed KILLS THE MOTHER fether! Guard are more disciplined than fluff gives them credit for and frankly very little fluff makes them out to be spineless little heretics just waiting for a chance to serve Chaos.

Again Guard kill daemons just fine; plasma weaponry and good ole gunpowder will screw anything over if hit enough.

Again fluff is to be taken lightly; because as we have told you FLUFF EXAGGERATES!

Again eldar may teleport and use avatars but the guard has flamers, plasma weaponry, and more munitions than you could(or would want to) shake a stick at.

If it moves the Guard has enough munitions to put it down in so many bitz the Orks would not find anything salvageable. Also i believe Ciaphas cain and his Valhallans fought and won against Necrons. Haven't read the book(skipped to three for reasons of another thread) but that says Guard can fight necrons.

So when the status quo is broken and the imperium is beaten back to terra there will be no guardsmen protecting the Emperor?

Edit: addition to the munitions/corruption bit. They are well disciplined, they aren't some rabble militia raised in time of need they are SOLDIERS. professional, drilled, disciplined, and loyal. Corruption is very low on worries in the Guard because when it does happen they handle it well.

God Emperor.....

I am only saying that there are some things that Guard can't kill ( like Daemon Princes and fallen Primarchs for example ). And they fight against some enemies with such might that in the end the victory is sour ( millions lost, thousands of tanks and ships destroyed ). And yes, in the end Guard will not defend the Emperor, it will defend last Imperial worlds and their population while Space Marines will defend Terra and the Emperor. What's left of the Guard will protect Human remnants as they flee to the area of space where can they rebuild and survive while last of the Space Marines fight on Terra around the Imperial palace.

And what do you all trying to prove? That Imperium doesn't need Space Marines?

And solders can't kill super-natural beings. It will be like regular G.I. kills Satan.
and edit: fluff is a fluff is a fluff, even if it stats that Guard is fighting with a balloon - it is still fluff.

No i am trying to prove that the Imperium is not held together solely by Marines like you make it sound.

As for protecting fleeing humans that would be the job of the NAVY and its SHIPS that the GUARD has no control over. Horus Hersey aftermath split the Imperial military between Guard and Navy.


I like how you use 'Whats left of the guard"; because that trivializes a force of several THOUSANDS of BILLIONS of men. With that many men the Guard would surely be deployed to defend as much as possible on Terra while Marines from the few chapters able to arrive in time(remember how many failed to make it during Horus Hersey?) split to defend key areas ALONGSIDE Guardsmen with a specialty for that job while others went to take the fight to the hive fleet, the Ork WAAAGH! fleet, the Chaos fleet, or whatever gak is mucking about just beyond orbit. While the Navy is in massive battles with them hoping to soften them up for the defenders. The Imperial military works together with the Guard as the bulk, the Navy as transit, and marines as spec ops. Each has multiple roles but they all defend the Imperium. marines aren;t the sole defenders of the imperium like fluff tends to go overboard with.

As for Daemon princes and lords showing up how often does that happen?

You are right, Macragge was saved only trough the sacrifice of Dominus Astra. And Navy Deliver Guardsman to the world that are in need of troops, so even Navy is more important by the Guard.

And I will finish it with this sentence - "every solder of the Imperium, being Might Space Marine, Or Faithfuls Sister or Brave Guardsman - is an important asset in all things related to war."

Guard can defend and conquer, but simply can't face some things and win.
Because of that we have Sisters, why can support Guard and offer the Guard better protection against Chaos incursion.
And in the end, there are some aliens and being simply to much powerful that even the Sisters and Guard have a hard time defeating it.
Because of that we have Astartes, who are using strategies and skills beyond that of ordinary mortals to tear down enemy strong-points and slaughter monsters and unnatural being and make a way for Sisters and Guard to finish the job.

Each of these factions cannot work alone. We didn't mentioned mighty Inquisition, who is ever vigilant at protecting the heart of the Imperium. Or mighty Imperial Navy, who watch over the Empero's skies and planets. Or the mighty Adeptus Mechanicus, who safeguard Human technology and deliver machines of war to the all others to be used. Or noble Adaptus Arbites, who ever more watch over population and stooping the Chaos influences from going to deep. Then there are Assassins, who makes sure that Governors and alien leaders don't cause chaos and mayhem across countless sectors. Thus saving billions with just one bullet.

In the end , Space Marines are the protectors of Humanity. But they can't stand alone in this dark future. All of them mentioned above stand together, thus creating the image of the Imperium - united race standing proud and ready to keep it's right to rule the galaxy. And with all of them standing together, side by side, how can they fail."


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Varrick wrote:
No i am trying to prove that the Imperium is not held together solely by Marines like you make it sound.

Again wrong, read my post. I have told that "Guard is winning wars, Marines are wining battles." Where does it say: "Imperium is held together solely by Marines."

As for protecting fleeing humans that would be the job of the NAVY and its SHIPS that the GUARD has no control over. Horus Hersey aftermath split the Imperial military between Guard and Navy.

We all know that. I didn't implement anything different. But Navy is always working closely with the Guard.

I like how you use 'Whats left of the guard"; because that trivializes a force of several THOUSANDS of BILLIONS of men. With that many men the Guard would surely be deployed to defend as much as possible on Terra while Marines from the few chapters able to arrive in time(remember how many failed to make it during Horus Hersey?) split to defend key areas ALONGSIDE Guardsmen with a specialty for that job while others went to take the fight to the hive fleet, the Ork WAAAGH! fleet, the Chaos fleet, or whatever gak is mucking about just beyond orbit. While the Navy is in massive battles with them hoping to soften them up for the defenders. The Imperial military works together with the Guard as the bulk, the Navy as transit, and marines as spec ops. Each has multiple roles but they all defend the Imperium. marines aren;t the sole defenders of the imperium like fluff tends to go overboard with.

Orks outnumber us, as the Tyranids. You really think that if all races attack us at once that we would have any chance?
And I know the Marines, and what would they do. Every major power in the galaxy ( Chaos, Necrons, Tyranids, Orks... ) knows that the only way to defeat Imperum is to conquer Terra. Marines would organize the defense, take some Guard Regiments with them and send the rest to protect what's left of Humanity to try to rebuild and survive. Every enemy would ignore them and attack Terra, simply because the large concentration of Marines that would be there. In the end they would all die out, every single marine to the last. But in the end - Mankind would survive and have forces to protect them ( remnants of the Guard, Sisters, Mechanicus and Navy - Grey Knights would also all die on Terra as the large part of the Inquisition).

As for Daemon princes and lords showing up how often does that happen?

DoW games, Black Crusades, 1'st war for Armageddon, x planets where GK goes to...

Marines can lose to the same enemies as Guardsmen.
The point we are arguing is that Guardsmen play a miuch more important role in defending the Imperium than Marines do.

The OP was questionning a statement made by a game dev on the Space Marine game.
He was right to question it since it isn't true.

Marines by and large are a pretty fickle entity in the Imperium since they effectively do what they like and answer to no real authority (Inquisitors are just as fickle IMO). THe IG have learned to fight without their assistance in all but the most major of theatres, they have fought all the nasty beasties that Marines have fought and they have won enough of those battles to keep the Imperium together, if they couldn't beat certain races the Imperium would have fallen apart a long time ago...

And I said that the Guard is important, but Marines can kill some enemies that could bring a world of hurt to the Guard. It is always good solution to send several Marines to kill Ork Warboss and then left his moob to the Imperial Guard.

Guard is playing much larger role than Marines, but Marines are still the Protector of Mankind. As they are used to combat the most dangerous of threats, thus making the Guardsman job more easier.

And you have forgotten the morale impact that Marines have on the Guard. When Guardsman see Marine fighting with them, they are fighting better. They see them as Emperor's holly fury, add that to Guard moral and then can't fail.

The reason that Guard has much bigger role than Astartes is because they are numberless, if Astartes are numbering like original Legions they would have much bigger role than the Guard now.

I haven't forgotten it it's just that Astartes are so rare the effect is negligible in all but the biggest of battles.

The Guards are the true protectors of humanity.

The point is without the Space Marines the Imperium would still exist. Without the Guards its demise would be swift and brutal.

You even said yourself, Guardsmen fulfill a larger role. A protector cannot be part-time. The Guard fight everywhere and anywhere. Space Marines are damage control.

purplefood wrote:I haven't forgotten it it's just that Astartes are so rare the effect is negligible in all but the biggest of battles.

The Guards are the true protectors of humanity.

The point is without the Space Marines the Imperium would still exist. Without the Guards its demise would be swift and brutal.

You even said yourself, Guardsmen fulfill a larger role. A protector cannot be part-time. The Guard fight everywhere and anywhere. Space Marines are damage control.

Again you are pointing to the question: Why do we need Marines for?

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:I haven't forgotten it it's just that Astartes are so rare the effect is negligible in all but the biggest of battles.

The Guards are the true protectors of humanity.

The point is without the Space Marines the Imperium would still exist. Without the Guards its demise would be swift and brutal.

You even said yourself, Guardsmen fulfill a larger role. A protector cannot be part-time. The Guard fight everywhere and anywhere. Space Marines are damage control.

Again you are pointing to the question: Why do we need Marines for?

That isn't the question.
Marines are nice to have and it's no mistake to say they have helped the Imperium through some very tough times.
They have helped stall some truly massive threats and in some cases defeat them utterly but in many cases these threats would have caused damage and then been stopped and their successes undone.
As i said, damage control... and prevention i suppose.

purplefood wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:I haven't forgotten it it's just that Astartes are so rare the effect is negligible in all but the biggest of battles.

The Guards are the true protectors of humanity.

The point is without the Space Marines the Imperium would still exist. Without the Guards its demise would be swift and brutal.

You even said yourself, Guardsmen fulfill a larger role. A protector cannot be part-time. The Guard fight everywhere and anywhere. Space Marines are damage control.

Again you are pointing to the question: Why do we need Marines for?

That isn't the question.
Marines are nice to have and it's no mistake to say they have helped the Imperium through some very tough times.
They have helped stall some truly massive threats and in some cases defeat them utterly but in many cases these threats would have caused damage and then been stopped and their successes undone.
As i said, damage control... and prevention i suppose.

And that is what I am saying all this time: Marines win battles, Guard win wars.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:I haven't forgotten it it's just that Astartes are so rare the effect is negligible in all but the biggest of battles.

The Guards are the true protectors of humanity.

The point is without the Space Marines the Imperium would still exist. Without the Guards its demise would be swift and brutal.

You even said yourself, Guardsmen fulfill a larger role. A protector cannot be part-time. The Guard fight everywhere and anywhere. Space Marines are damage control.

Again you are pointing to the question: Why do we need Marines for?

That isn't the question.
Marines are nice to have and it's no mistake to say they have helped the Imperium through some very tough times.
They have helped stall some truly massive threats and in some cases defeat them utterly but in many cases these threats would have caused damage and then been stopped and their successes undone.
As i said, damage control... and prevention i suppose.

And that is what I am saying all this time: Marines win battles, Guard win wars.

Actually what you were saying was:
"Without the Grey Knights the Imperium would fall apart in a matter of months"
"There are some enemies that Guard cannot beat"
And, now you are saying something that doesn't really make much sense in this context.
Marines try to make it so they only fight in short and decisive battles.
Guard can afford the luxury of a battle of attrition but it isn't their standard doctrine.
Frankly it's more a long the lines of "Marines kill big things, Guard kill everything else"

I don't know where this protectors of humanity thing came from. I always got the impression from Rogue Trader that space marines did alot of things like virusbomb planets and destroy civilisations with orbital bombardment. The term purgers of chaos always seemed a better term to me. Then i come back to the hobby and space marines are somehow heroes ( despite the fact that normal people would see nor hear bugger all about them) and this entire fluff thing is now called grimdark, i'm still trying to figure out where the grim and the dark is with all these saviours of humanity supermens running around and the fact that the imperium is called the good guys.

Protectors of humanity? more like ruthless underlings of the evil empire.

purplefood wrote:
Actually what you were saying was:
"Without the Grey Knights the Imperium would fall apart in a matter of months"
"There are some enemies that Guard cannot beat"
And, now you are saying something that doesn't really make much sense in this context.
Marines try to make it so they only fight in short and decisive battles.
Guard can afford the luxury of a battle of attrition but it isn't their standard doctrine.
Frankly it's more a long the lines of "Marines kill big things, Guard kill everything else"

Without the Grey Knights the Imperium would fall apart in a matter of months" - that is true, it is said by the Inquisition. Remember the one thing they are hiding fro the Imperium's population?
"There are some enemies that Guard cannot beat" - Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants, Ork Warbosses, Eldar Avatar, Necron Uprising, Tau full invasion force, Chaos Champions, Monoliths...

But Marines can't: hold down worlds, defeat numerous enemies, stretch their forcess across several planets, deliver high ordinance...

The title 'Protectors of Humanity' is not meant to be taken quite so literally. It's a symbol and a matter of perception.

In almost all the fluff, if the Imperial Guard is slugging it out on some battlefield, if (friendly) drop pods start landing, the troops breath a collective sigh of relief. The perception is that Space Marines can save the day - and they usually do.

Could the Imperial Guard/Imperial Navy handle most of the threats to the realm? Probably - with enough ordnance and manpower they can take care of most of it. Would it inspire hope in both military and civilians? Probably not.

While guard are the first line of defense. SM are described as the sword of the emperor which places them more as a precision weapon that strike where they are needed most.

Remember the IG is the Hammer while the SM are the sword.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Actually what you were saying was:
"Without the Grey Knights the Imperium would fall apart in a matter of months"
"There are some enemies that Guard cannot beat"
And, now you are saying something that doesn't really make much sense in this context.
Marines try to make it so they only fight in short and decisive battles.
Guard can afford the luxury of a battle of attrition but it isn't their standard doctrine.
Frankly it's more a long the lines of "Marines kill big things, Guard kill everything else"

Without the Grey Knights the Imperium would fall apart in a matter of months" - that is true, it is said by the Inquisition. Remember the one thing they are hiding fro the Imperium's population?
"There are some enemies that Guard cannot beat" - Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants, Ork Warbosses, Eldar Avatar, Necron Uprising, Tau full invasion force, Chaos Champions, Monoliths...

But Marines can't: hold down worlds, defeat numerous enemies, stretch their forcess across several planets, deliver high ordinance...

Clearly they can be beaten or otherwise the Imperium truly would have fallen apart...
And, frankly, the Inquisition tend to side with the worst case scenario, a matter of months to take down 1 million worlds is an insanely good time and if they can do that then GK shouldn't have any real effect on them.

purplefood wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Actually what you were saying was:
"Without the Grey Knights the Imperium would fall apart in a matter of months"
"There are some enemies that Guard cannot beat"
And, now you are saying something that doesn't really make much sense in this context.
Marines try to make it so they only fight in short and decisive battles.
Guard can afford the luxury of a battle of attrition but it isn't their standard doctrine.
Frankly it's more a long the lines of "Marines kill big things, Guard kill everything else"

Without the Grey Knights the Imperium would fall apart in a matter of months" - that is true, it is said by the Inquisition. Remember the one thing they are hiding fro the Imperium's population?
"There are some enemies that Guard cannot beat" - Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants, Ork Warbosses, Eldar Avatar, Necron Uprising, Tau full invasion force, Chaos Champions, Monoliths...

But Marines can't: hold down worlds, defeat numerous enemies, stretch their forcess across several planets, deliver high ordinance...

Clearly they can be beaten or otherwise the Imperium truly would have fallen apart...
And, frankly, the Inquisition tend to side with the worst case scenario, a matter of months to take down 1 million worlds is an insanely good time and if they can do that then GK shouldn't have any real effect on them.

They can be beaten - by Space Marines. These are the enemies they are fighting against, that the Guard cannot kill.

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

purplefood wrote:
Actually what you were saying was:
"Without the Grey Knights the Imperium would fall apart in a matter of months"
"There are some enemies that Guard cannot beat"
And, now you are saying something that doesn't really make much sense in this context.
Marines try to make it so they only fight in short and decisive battles.
Guard can afford the luxury of a battle of attrition but it isn't their standard doctrine.
Frankly it's more a long the lines of "Marines kill big things, Guard kill everything else"

Without the Grey Knights the Imperium would fall apart in a matter of months" - that is true, it is said by the Inquisition. Remember the one thing they are hiding fro the Imperium's population?
"There are some enemies that Guard cannot beat" - Daemon Princes, Hive Tyrants, Ork Warbosses, Eldar Avatar, Necron Uprising, Tau full invasion force, Chaos Champions, Monoliths...

But Marines can't: hold down worlds, defeat numerous enemies, stretch their forcess across several planets, deliver high ordinance...

Clearly they can be beaten or otherwise the Imperium truly would have fallen apart...
And, frankly, the Inquisition tend to side with the worst case scenario, a matter of months to take down 1 million worlds is an insanely good time and if they can do that then GK shouldn't have any real effect on them.

They can be beaten - by Space Marines. These are the enemies they are fighting against, that the Guard cannot kill.

That's nice but the GK number only 1 thousand. They cnanot be everywhere at once. If daemons were capable of taking down in the Imperium in a matter of months then the GK wouldn't stand a chance in hell at defending the Imperium.