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Space Wolves are too dumb to be corrupted.

Omegus wrote:Space Wolves are too dumb to be corrupted.

Now that's just rude...

Yet if we go by their description in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns and Battle of the Fang, incredibly accurate.

Omegus wrote:Yet if we go by their description in A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns and Battle of the Fang, incredibly accurate.

Battle of the Fang?
The one where yeah that sounds like the work of an idiot to me.
Not sure how Prospero Burns makes them stupid and Thousand Sons deliberately casts them in a bad light so go figure.
Incidentally you do sound like a troll right now...

Well, spending a few centuries chopping up bodies you're likely to learn a thing or two. What's far more telling is the reaction of the vast majority of the other Wolves (including Bjorn)... despite the import of the research, their reaction is "OMG, heresy, burn it!"

Prospero Burns displays the attitudes of the native Fenrisians in the first chapter. The events that occur later on confirm that Space Wolves are no different than native Fenrisians, discounting a few extra organs and some fancy equipment.

I'm not trolling, just stating an opinion, but you seem to be itching for a fight.

Omegus wrote:Well, spending a few centuries chopping up bodies you're likely to learn a thing or two. What's far more telling is the reaction of the vast majority of the other Wolves (including Bjorn)... despite the import of the research, their reaction is "OMG, heresy, burn it!"

Prospero Burns displays the attitudes of the native Fenrisians in the first chapter. The events that occur later on confirm that Space Wolves are no different than native Fenrisians, discounting a few extra organs and some fancy equipment.

I'm not trolling, just stating an opinion, but you seem to be itching for a fight.

I'm not itching for a fight but you didn't exactly present your opinion like an opinion...

I call it like I see it. They use psychic powers but don't believe they are psychic powers. That's pretty damn dumb.

purplefood wrote:I doubt the Iron Hands will turn to the C'tan...
They aren't stupid.
The Black Rage isn't the same as Khorne worship... in fact those under the effects of it think they are Sanguinius in his final moments of life.

Didn't the Iron Hands primarch kill a C'tan anyway, making them less likely to get corrupted by the Necrons?

No chapter is particularly likely to get corrupted, some just share similar traits with the Chaos Legions, like the BA/WE, Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors.

Durza wrote:

purplefood wrote:I doubt the Iron Hands will turn to the C'tan...
They aren't stupid.
The Black Rage isn't the same as Khorne worship... in fact those under the effects of it think they are Sanguinius in his final moments of life.

Didn't the Iron Hands primarch kill a C'tan anyway, making them less likely to get corrupted by the Necrons?

No chapter is particularly likely to get corrupted, some just share similar traits with the Chaos Legions, like the BA/WE, Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors.

It wasn't a C'tan...
Possibly some kind of Necron but i don't know...


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Omegus wrote:I call it like I see it. They use psychic powers but don't believe they are psychic powers. That's pretty damn dumb.

I think that bit has been changed by now...
The whole council of Nicaea thing is a complete f**k up as it is...

Omegus wrote:I call it like I see it. They use psychic powers but don't believe they are psychic powers. That's pretty damn dumb.

They also persecuted The Thousand Sons for having a flaw which turned some of them in to rabid spawn, despite having a very similar flaw in their own geneseed. They really were pretty damn dumb.

iproxtaco wrote:

Omegus wrote:I call it like I see it. They use psychic powers but don't believe they are psychic powers. That's pretty damn dumb.

They also persecuted The Thousand Sons for having a flaw which turned some of them in to rabid spawn, despite having a very similar flaw in their own geneseed. They really were pretty damn dumb.

I think they persecuated them because of the whole Sorcery thing rather than the flesh change...

purplefood wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Omegus wrote:I call it like I see it. They use psychic powers but don't believe they are psychic powers. That's pretty damn dumb.

They also persecuted The Thousand Sons for having a flaw which turned some of them in to rabid spawn, despite having a very similar flaw in their own geneseed. They really were pretty damn dumb.

I think they persecuated them because of the whole Sorcery thing rather than the flesh change...

They witnessed The Flesh Change, and riled against it, depite it being a flaw in the geneseed of The Thousand Sons. They then went on to use their own mutated individuals as weapons on Prospero. Then there's Othere Wyrdmake, who spoke against the use of psychic powers despite being a fething librarian.
The Space Wolves were dicks.

iproxtaco wrote:

purplefood wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Omegus wrote:I call it like I see it. They use psychic powers but don't believe they are psychic powers. That's pretty damn dumb.

They also persecuted The Thousand Sons for having a flaw which turned some of them in to rabid spawn, despite having a very similar flaw in their own geneseed. They really were pretty damn dumb.

I think they persecuated them because of the whole Sorcery thing rather than the flesh change...

They witnessed The Flesh Change, and riled against it, depite it being a flaw in the geneseed of The Thousand Sons. They then went on to use their own mutated individuals as weapons on Prospero. Then there's Othere Wyrdmake, who spoke against the use of psychic powers despite being a fething librarian.
The Space Wolves were dicks.

I'm not saying they weren't.
I'm just saying they aren't stupid.
The Thousand Sons did some pretty stupid things themselves...
All the Legions did.

iproxtaco wrote:They witnessed The Flesh Change, and riled against it, depite it being a flaw in the geneseed of The Thousand Sons. They then went on to use their own mutated individuals as weapons on Prospero.

I don't recall wulfen being unleashed on Prospero. Page reference?

Then there's Othere Wyrdmake, who spoke against the use of psychic powers despite being a fething librarian.

Along with all of the other librarians who spoke out at Nikaea? Are we also condemning those who carry guns but don't like violence? Reluctant use of force is a key virtue in a lot of warrior mythologies.

The Space Wolves were dicks.

The Space Wolves are good soldiers. They do what they are told. They were made to be the Last Resort by the Immortal Emperor of Man. That might mean they have to do things that you and the rest of mankind find distasteful.


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Omegus wrote:Well, spending a few centuries chopping up bodies you're likely to learn a thing or two. What's far more telling is the reaction of the vast majority of the other Wolves (including Bjorn)... despite the import of the research, their reaction is "OMG, heresy, burn it!"

Welcome to Warhammer 40k! You appear to be new. Most humans and post-humans still in the universe have that reaction to everything. I guess you'll notice that after a while.

Prospero Burns displays the attitudes of the native Fenrisians in the first chapter. The events that occur later on confirm that Space Wolves are no different than native Fenrisians, discounting a few extra organs and some fancy equipment.

Guess you missed the whole subplot and speech by Russ where he says that is all an act to fool people into underestimating them. I can understand how that could happen. It is not like it was a major theme of the book or anything... Oh wait.

Most of the Legions were idiots at that time, hence Mortarion trusted Typhon.

That is oddly ironic/hypocritical...
"I don't trust psykers so i am gonna make this psyker my first captain and then allow him to guide my entire legion through the warp" right...
That said... he ended up having a reason not to trust them i suppose.

Durza wrote:Most of the Legions were idiots at that time, hence Mortarion trusted Typhon.

I think dumb and idiot get tossed around a bit too much here. (I know, hyperbole on the internet, whoda thunk!)

Is it dumb if someone you have trusted for years turns on you? There is a reason that Betrayal is usually so shocking and abhorred. Because most folks don't see betrayal coming.

Heck, the Emperor didn't see Horus turning.

Do you really think most of the Primarchs were going to suspect that some of their most trusted lieutenants were in league with what they thought of as a space highway? Yeaaaaah. That's kinda crazy-talk.

Hindsight is always 20-20.


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purplefood wrote:That is oddly ironic/hypocritical...
"I don't trust psykers so i am gonna make this psyker my first captain and then allow him to guide my entire legion through the warp" right...
That said... he ended up having a reason not to trust them i suppose.

Umm. Not like Mort had a choice. It was either that or stay stuck in the warp. He clung to the hope that Typhon could get him out safe, which he didn't.

pretre wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:They witnessed The Flesh Change, and riled against it, depite it being a flaw in the geneseed of The Thousand Sons. They then went on to use their own mutated individuals as weapons on Prospero.

I don't recall wulfen being unleashed on Prospero. Page reference?

539 A Thousand Sons
"It landed in front of him and he recoiled in horror as he saw this was no wolf, but a monstrous beast clad in fragments of armour, as though a warrior's body had been transformed into some hell-beast."
......
"'And they say we are the monsters!' shouted Hathor Maat."
The whole page talks about The Wulfen.

Then there's Othere Wyrdmake, who spoke against the use of psychic powers despite being a fething librarian.

Along with all of the other librarians who spoke out at Nikaea? Are we also condemning those who carry guns but don't like violence? Reluctant use of force is a key virtue in a lot of warrior mythologies.

He was the only Librarian that we know of that spoke out against the use of sorcery. A massive hypocrite and idiot.

The Space Wolves were dicks.

The Space Wolves are good soldiers. They do what they are told. They were made to be the Last Resort by the Immortal Emperor of Man. That might mean they have to do things that you and the rest of mankind find distasteful.

Still dicks. They didn't need to do what they did, they chose to. Dicks.

Sorcery and Psyker powers do not equal one and the same.

Sorcery is specifically drawing upon the Ruinous Powers(which the Thousand Sons were doing, knowingly or not, and should have been able to figure out what with their familiars).
Psykers simply tap into the Warp itself to fuel their powers.

They were one in the same back then, Psychic powers were regarded as Sorcery by those who railed against its use.

Not entirely true.

Astropaths and Navigators were permitted to an extent, but with monitoring involved.

The Wolves didn't consider their "psychic powers" as sorcery simply because their powers didn't effectively work like that. They were drawing upon the Immaterium, yes. They understood that. What they also understood is that there are things within the Warp that want to offer psykers power--which is exactly what happened with the Thousand Sons. The familiars that went with them that boosted their powers were the results of those 'pacts'.

iproxtaco wrote:539 A Thousand Sons
"It landed in front of him and he recoiled in horror as he saw this was no wolf, but a monstrous beast clad in fragments of armour, as though a warrior's body had been transformed into some hell-beast."
......
"'And they say we are the monsters!' shouted Hathor Maat."
The whole page talks about The Wulfen.

Cool, thanks. I forgot that section.

He was the only Librarian that we know of that spoke out against the use of sorcery. A massive hypocrite and idiot.

But not the only psyker. The Emperor himself sided against Magnus. You'll notice that Othere calls out the TS for SORCERY, where as the 12 other librarians only speak of using Psychic Powers. There is a big difference between Psykers and Sorcerors in 40k fluff.

pretre wrote:The Space Wolves are good soldiers. They do what they are told. They were made to be the Last Resort by the Immortal Emperor of Man. That might mean they have to do things that you and the rest of mankind find distasteful.

Still dicks. They didn't need to do what they did, they chose to. Dicks.

Magnus' indecision led to his downfall. The Wolves did what they were made to do. They had to do it because the Emperor sent them to do it. This is clear from what Leman Russ says when he talks to Hawser before Prospero. It is also pretty clear from Prospero Burns that the common theory that Horus is the one who set LR on Prospero is wrong. He did some things to make tension, but Big E gave the order.

Leman Russ was even leisurely in the approach, if Magnus had just called him up and said 'Yo bro, my bad. We'll come to Terra with you.' it would have been all good. But he was being too dark and tragic to do that, and his people suffered.

Emphases are mine.

Othere Wyrdmake wrote:I stood alongside its warriors on the baked salt flats of Aghoru, and I name them a coven of warlocks, every one of them a star-cunning sorcerer and conjurer of unclean magic.

Othere accuses the TS of sorcery.

Targutai Yesugei wrote:“The warrior chosen by Stormseers is not evil, and nor is power he wields. He is weapon, like Land Raider and bolt gun. What fool casts aside weapon before battle? Like all weapons, it is dangerous without much training, and all here know danger of rogue psyker

Targutai and the 11 other librarians miss the point. They say that Psychic power is important, but never address sorcery.

The whole Trial of Nikaea is all about how although Psychic power is important, some can't be trusted to not take it to the next step and practice sorcery. That's why it happens. And because the TS can't be trusted, everyone is punished.

The Emperor wrote:“I am not blind to the needs of the Imperium, but nor am I blind to the realities of the hearts of men. I hear men speak of knowledge and power as though they are abstract concepts to be employed as simply as a sword or gun. They are not. Power is a living force, and the danger with power is obsession. A man who attains a measure of power will find it comes to dominate his life until all he can think of is the acquisition of more. Nearly all men can stand adversity, but few can stand the ultimate test of character, that of wielding power without succumbing to its darker temptations... But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.”

The Emperor says basically, yeah Psychic are important but we can't take the chance that they will turn into Sorcerors. Better no psychics than some sorcerors.

Of course, certain members such as Astropaths were a necessity for The Great Crusade to function, but were still regarded with some suspicion. For The Space Wolves, sorcery and psychic powers were mixed together into a single word, sorcery, it was the same for many others, hence why The Emperor banned any Librarians in general.

I swear i read something that said he allowed psykers but banned sorcery...
I keep remembering i read that somehwere but i can never remember where and everyone tells me it never happened.

Refer to the quote that pretre gave us.

"Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.”

iproxtaco wrote:Of course, certain members such as Astropaths were a necessity for The Great Crusade to function, but were still regarded with some suspicion. For The Space Wolves, sorcery and psychic powers were mixed together into a single word, sorcery, it was the same for many others, hence why The Emperor banned any Librarians in general.

Nope. You have it twisted. The SW definitely divide Sorcery and Psychery. And the Emperor did as well. See my quotes.

'If you’d care to, you may define maleficarum as any sorcery that is not performed under the most stringent application of psyker control.’

Helwintr wrote:‘There is a vast gulf between what I employ for the good of the Rout and what you practise, warlock,’ Helwintr replied, ‘and the chief part of that gulf is control. Only the naive would think that mankind could survive in the cosmos without some measure of craft and cunning to protect him, but there is a limit. A limit. We must know what we can master and what we cannot, and we must never allow ourselves to step beyond that line. Tell me, how many steps have you taken? One? Three? A dozen? A thousand?’

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iproxtaco wrote:Refer to the quote that pretre gave us.

"Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.”

Right, because of the threat of Sorcery. Read the sentence before it:

But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.

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purplefood wrote:I swear i read something that said he allowed psykers but banned sorcery...
I keep remembering i read that somehwere but i can never remember where and everyone tells me it never happened.

That was old Nikaea, I believe. Waaaay back.

I liked the old Nikaea...
Made so much more sense...
The broke the new one...

purplefood wrote:I liked the old Nikaea...
Made so much more sense...
The broke the new one...

No, it still makes sense. The new Nikaea shows the Emperor's disappointment in his children. He thought they could be trusted and they couldn't.

It was like he lent them the keys to the car thinking that there was no way that they were going to drunk drive. Guess what, a bunch of them were busted for drunk driving. So now no one gets to borrow the car.


If Nikaea was about DUI:
Othere: Yep, saw the TS drunk driving.
Mortarion: Drunk driving is bad, mmkay. No one should drive because they might drink before hand.
Magnus: Here's a cool story about how important it is for us to be able to drive.
12 Librarians: We're good drivers. Only good drivers should be able to drive.
Emperor: The threat of drunk driving is too great. No one gets to drive.
Later...
Magnus as he drives a car through the Emperor's Newest Project to Save the Human Race: Wooohooo! Horus is going to betray you!
Emperor: /facepalm

pretre wrote:Guess you missed the whole subplot and speech by Russ where he says that is all an act to fool people into underestimating them. I can understand how that could happen. It is not like it was a major theme of the book or anything... Oh wait.

So the natives slaughtering women and children because some Sky Guy landed among them is all a cover? That speech by Russ was just trying to cover the fact that they really are a bunch of idiots. He was the most adamant that his librarians were "children of the storm channeling the natural power of the natural cycle of life and death of Fenris" or some such crap. He was the biggest moron of all of them. Even after Horus' duplicity was revealed, he and his Legion were still frothing over the Thousand Sons because they just couldn't let it go once they started.

But hey, since we're being sarcastic, I'm sure you were being sarcastic when you misconstrued that the 12 librarians were SUPPORTIVE of psychic powers and the Space Wolf was the only one speaking out in opposition... and he was just condemning the Thousand Sons because they were throwing some lightning around... nevermind that the Wolves like summoning storms.

Omegus wrote:So the natives slaughtering women and children because some Sky Guy landed among them is all a cover?

That's not SW, that's fenrisians. There's a difference when they become Space Wolves which is clearly outlined in the book.

That speech by Russ was just trying to cover the fact that they really are a bunch of idiots.

Any proof or page numbers to prove that? Or just grinding your axe?

He was the most adamant that his librarians were "children of the storm channeling the natural power of the natural cycle of life and death of Fenris" or some such crap. He was the biggest moron of all of them. Even after Horus' duplicity was revealed, he and his Legion were still frothing over the Thousand Sons because they just couldn't let it go once they started.

Page reference? The Emperor told him to go get the TS and told him why. It is implied that Leman Russ was told that the Horus thing was bullpucky by the Big E*. Horus' duplicity was not revealed until after Prospero.

* LR knows about the 'Treachery' warning before Prospero. It is unlikely that Horus would have told him this.


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Omegus wrote:
But hey, since we're being sarcastic, I'm sure you were being sarcastic when you misconstrued that the 12 librarians were SUPPORTIVE of psychic powers and the Space Wolf was the only one speaking out in opposition... and he was just condemning the Thousand Sons because they were throwing some lightning around... nevermind that the Wolves like summoning storms.

Go back and read my quotes. Othere condemns them for SORCERY. The 12 librarians don't even talk about Sorcery. The Emperor condemns them for SORCERY and has to ban psychic powers because of it.

No one begrudges the TS lightning. They have a problem with their little warp pets which are daemons and the deals that they have made with sorcerous powers. Or did you forget how Magnus stopped the flesh change?


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Summoning storms is not consorting with Daemons, btw. Just so we're clear.