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I agree with HBMC, love 40k, not so much GW

I think the rate of change the OP is proposing would leave people a little bored with their chosen game.

I have no issue with the rate of change other than it can take them forever to get round to updating some of the codexes.

GW's real problem in terms of the game design (I'm ignoring all their other problems for the purposes of this thread) is consistency or lack there of. They can barely make it through two army books/codexes before they go off in a new direction. I will be amazed if their current approach to Warhammer Army Books (hard back, sparse magic items section, toned down units) lasts the entire cycle.

I really wasn't dictating what the rate of change should be just a way of handling it.

Wouldn't a customer be more patient and willing to give the company the benefit of the doubt if they trusted the company and new exactly when something was coming? Of course!

Every company does this especially if they can control it. Why does GW refuse to? What has happened in the past that GW feels that keeping things secret until the last second is beneficial for them?



The other point I was trying to make was stability in the rules and product would be a postive thing.

GW used to try and control the creative process more:

"You two guys go write a new Codex, make it good, balanced, and with some cool fluff"

Somehow it seems, while you can assign stuff to a writer, if they have no inspiration or cool ideas for an army, you just get regurgitated crap. The same for sculpters. Unless someone has some idea of a direction to go with new sculpts and imagery, you get the same thing you had before.

Instead, a lot of the design process revolves around giving the projects to the teams that have ideas of where they want to go, and who actually want to do the work.

There were some codices/army books that got scrapped after quite a bit of work, because they just weren't that good. Often these were works assigned to someone. You can't just dictate quality creative work. Especially when story/fluff needs to interact with the look of the models, and the rules of the game.

You could say 'new marine codex every 5 years'. If the deadline was coming up and no one had a clue about where to go, you'd get a crap codex, and be stuck with it for 5 years.

I would have thought GW were afraid of change.

I mean, eventually they'll need to cannibalize 40k and WH sometime (in some shape or form), otherwise someone else will.

Daba wrote:I would have thought GW were afraid of change.

I mean, eventually they'll need to cannibalize 40k and WH sometime (in some shape or form), otherwise someone else will.

They self cannibilize every time they make a new edition.

So does your phone company, the grocery store, and the gas station you fill your SUV up at.

Except that if the line gets broken they send someone out to fix it.
I don't have to keep buying new recipie books to be able to use my groceries
The petroleum industry doesn't come up with a cheaper hybrid fuel and the charge more for it and throw in free bubbles to the mixture.
(Not at the time of writing)

i remember the days when a tactical squad of marines was 30 dollars, not a combat squad(dont remember actual prices)...oh, those were the days

GW's real problem is change.

Yes, they want to much of it, from my pocket.

i remember the days when a tactical squad of marines was 30 dollars, not a combat squad(dont remember actual prices)...oh, those were the days

I remember when you could get 3 tactical squads for $20.

daedalus wrote:GW is not your friend, and Warhammer (40k, at least) is more balanced that most people would like to admit. It's not perfect, but it could be worse.

Not if Matt Ward has anything to do with it

Ward's rules don't really bother me so much, it's his fluff...and to a lesser extent his apparent lack of creativity in naming wargear. IE, "They're Blood Angels! SO EVERYTHING HAS TO HAVE 'BLOOD' IN IT!", or "They're Grey Knights! SO EVERYTHING HAS TO HAVE 'PSY' IN IT!"

and with the forthcoming Necrons EVERYTHING HAS TO HAVE RONS IN IT.


(not sure if I should have included an apostrophy. Maybe not as this is a family show!)

Sidstyler wrote:Ward's rules don't really bother me so much, it's his fluff...and to a lesser extent his apparent lack of creativity in naming wargear. IE, "They're Blood Angels! SO EVERYTHING HAS TO HAVE 'BLOOD' IN IT!", or "They're Grey Knights! SO EVERYTHING HAS TO HAVE 'PSY' IN IT!"

When it comes to his fluff a picture is worth a 1000 words



That is the only way to describe lord Draigo fluff

I think the problem with his rules is he gets a little carried away, Daemons for warhammer anyone, anyone had a game ruined by them? grey knights would be fine if not for the grenades and psybolt ammo (well and a few other things actually lol)

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:

So does your phone company, the grocery store, and the gas station you fill your SUV up at.

Except that if the line gets broken they send someone out to fix it.
I don't have to keep buying new recipie books to be able to use my groceries
The petroleum industry doesn't come up with a cheaper hybrid fuel and the charge more for it and throw in free bubbles to the mixture.
(Not at the time of writing)

errr, actually....they can now mix up to 10% ethanol (I think this is fuel from corn husks, etc) into your gasoline. It doesn't make the product better, slightly worse. And gas prices are going up.)

My phone lines at work were so bad, we upgraded to DSL and ran our fax, CC machine, etc through that. Now the DSL at the mall is running at only 10% advertised speed, and they don't know how to make it better.

So is this just a GW bashing thread? I don't think GW has any problem with change. Hell, there changing things all the time! Codex updates? FAQs? New miniatures? Or were you talking about business practices? Oh right, changing from metal to resin...oh and the price hikes...ah and the only allowing GW or FW miniatures to be fielded on their tables. GW has no problems with change, people just have problems with the way they are changing.

Another thing thats beginning to get on my nerves are the constant complaints about price hikes. "I used to be able to get 3 tactical marine squads for $20" and you also used to able to get milk for 5 cents a jug. The war-gaming industry is not an insular industry, people. It is effected by market trends and inflation that brings up food and gas costs. Obviously some of it is manufactured, like oh I don't know, the gas industry. But all that does is make GW's price hike almost par for the course.

Something people also forget is that GW is a monopoly. Meaning it is currently the only meaningfully large company that can produce enough models, rule sets, and etc en masse to truly make a profit and reach a large, global consumer base. Sure there are other companies, but none as massive and with such a stranglehold on the market as GW. One other reason they raise prices is simply because they can. They're the only game in town and exert that power on the market place by upping the ante.

Everyone screams and yells that they're "going to quit Warhammer 40k for good and stop buying GW" but, while some do indeed live up to their promise (kudos to you all, you have true conviction) most of those will simply bite the bullet and buy the minis at a higher price. Its one of the many advantages of having a large customer base. Alienating as much as 5-7% will not impact them all that much.

So, this is really a post more about "GW SUCKS BEACUSE OF ________ AND ________ !" threads. Most of them generally have no knowledge beyond the codex pages and price tags in front of their faces. If you want to create another one of these threads, I suggest that any and all concerned fans have a view of the big picture. I suggest they do a lot of research, look into things, and dig deeper than what lies on the top layer.

I will continue to buy GW miniatures. This doesn't mean I support the way they do business, I just understand it.

Another thing thats beginning to get on my nerves are the constant complaints about price hikes. "I used to be able to get 3 tactical marine squads for $20" and you also used to able to get milk for 5 cents a jug. The war-gaming industry is not an insular industry, people. It is effected by market trends and inflation that brings up food and gas costs. Obviously some of it is manufactured, like oh I don't know, the gas industry. But all that does is make GW's price hike almost par for the course.

Yeah, you used to be able to get a gallon of milk for 5 cents.....in the 1930's. The GW price hikes have little to do with inflation and cost of materials. Those things we can understand. But how is it that smaller companies can switch to resin and bring the prices down!!

I will continue to buy GW miniatures. This doesn't mean I support the way they do business, I just understand it.

No you don't your just another apologist. If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't have brought up the price of milk. In 1990 milk was $2.15 and Gas was $1.04. Milk had gone up about 60%, gas has gone up almost 300% GW prices have gone up over 500% on average and almost 1000% on some items if you count forgeworld.

The best way to look at it is price per hour. When I was a kid I got about $5 an hour, so it cost me 4 hours of work to buy 30 marines. 30 marines are now $120/4. That is $30 an hour, I don't think to many kids earn that cutting lawns nowadays. Now quality is much better, but I still think that they are way too expensive.

Well sir, I actually do know what i'm talking about. I also know that my entire point was for people to stop bitching about prices. They are what they are, if you want to organize a world wide boycott, go right ahead. But don't just set on your ass and complain.

/rant

Andrew1975 wrote:The best way to look at it is price per hour. When I was a kid I got about $5 an hour, so it cost me 4 hours of work to buy 30 marines. 30 marines are now $120/4. That is $30 an hour, I don't think to many kids earn that cutting lawns nowadays. Now quality is much better, but I still think that they are way too expensive.

I don't know about that. Even back then (early 1990's) there was almost exactly the same whines about GWs business practices. Too expensive, don't cater to my playstyle, don't release enough figures/accessories etc etc. Of course, it might've been localized to my area only, we didnt have then intertubes back then.

Sure, you don't get $120 for four hours of cutting lawns, but GW has always been "expensive" and the RTB01 marines wasn't exactly value for money, especially not compared to what you get today.

pixelpusher wrote:

Andrew1975 wrote:The best way to look at it is price per hour. When I was a kid I got about $5 an hour, so it cost me 4 hours of work to buy 30 marines. 30 marines are now $120/4. That is $30 an hour, I don't think to many kids earn that cutting lawns nowadays. Now quality is much better, but I still think that they are way too expensive.

I don't know about that. Even back then (early 1990's) there was almost exactly the same whines about GWs business practices. Too expensive, don't cater to my playstyle, don't release enough figures/accessories etc etc. Of course, it might've been localized to my area only, we didnt have then intertubes back then.

Sure, you don't get $120 for four hours of cutting lawns, but GW has always been "expensive" and the RTB01 marines wasn't exactly value for money, especially not compared to what you get today.

Or you could you know, work out the actual price per hour? Tott up everything you bought to play your current army, and it's price, and divide by the hours (projected) over a year you would use that. I've done it before, and it works out a lot cheaper than you think, per hour.

Sure, you don't get $120 for four hours of cutting lawns, but GW has always been "expensive" and the RTB01 marines wasn't exactly value for money, especially not compared to what you get today.

Really, I've never heard that argument. How was that box not a value in any sense? People used to complain about alot of things, I don't really remember pricing being an issue until the late 90's. It started a little when they switched to lead free metal and prices almost doubled. It continues when they released epic 40K and the miniatures were about 400% more expensive because they were more detailed. That $20 box was less than a video game. The minis were great, not as detailed as today, but still great.

Read the entire sentence. "…not compared to what you get today". RTB01 was pretty static, back then it was pretty amazing. But compared to what you get today it was like a box of carved rocks.

I guess it (the "whine") was localized then. GW was (and is?) considered to be pretty expensive in Sweden.

Andrew1975 wrote:

Another thing thats beginning to get on my nerves are the constant complaints about price hikes. "I used to be able to get 3 tactical marine squads for $20" and you also used to able to get milk for 5 cents a jug. The war-gaming industry is not an insular industry, people. It is effected by market trends and inflation that brings up food and gas costs. Obviously some of it is manufactured, like oh I don't know, the gas industry. But all that does is make GW's price hike almost par for the course.

Yeah, you used to be able to get a gallon of milk for 5 cents.....in the 1930's. The GW price hikes have little to do with inflation and cost of materials. Those things we can understand. But how is it that smaller companies can switch to resin and bring the prices down!!

I will continue to buy GW miniatures. This doesn't mean I support the way they do business, I just understand it.

No you don't your just another apologist. If you knew what you were talking about you wouldn't have brought up the price of milk. In 1990 milk was $2.15 and Gas was $1.04. Milk had gone up about 60%, gas has gone up almost 300% GW prices have gone up over 500% on average and almost 1000% on some items if you count forgeworld.

The best way to look at it is price per hour. When I was a kid I got about $5 an hour, so it cost me 4 hours of work to buy 30 marines. 30 marines are now $120/4. That is $30 an hour, I don't think to many kids earn that cutting lawns nowadays. Now quality is much better, but I still think that they are way too expensive.

-Calling someone an Apologist because you don't agree with them is a poor arguement. It's an internet tactic to discredit the other person. I tend to lose interest in any discussion as soon as the Apologist/Hater cards get played.

-Milk has nothing to do with the price of games workshop. The price of milk also has a lot of price controls from governments. Gas/fuel certainly does have a relationship with GW prices, as everything needs to be shipped, and the price of fuel adds to the base cost of everything. Metal prices is a much better thing to look at. Instead of pointing out that milk is up 60% in 20 years, we could observe that Tin and Antimony went up 400% in the last 5 years, and that 20 years ago GW was able to use much cheaper lead alloys, before the switch to non-lead alloys a decade ago.

-The 30 marines you bought back than were not as good as the current models.

-Very few kids cut the lawn for money. 90% of their money (at least the few hundred buying from me) get the cash directly from their parents/grandparents.

I agree with that the constant price hikes can get on your nerves. For me, as a retailer selling GW, it's a dozen times worse. Always depressing to see them coming around again.

-Calling someone an Apologist because you don't agree with them is a poor arguement. It's an internet tactic to discredit the other person. I tend to lose interest in any discussion as soon as the Apologist/Hater cards get played.

What else can you say about someone that admits they have bad practices and whose only response is suck it up. I haven't bought anything in quite some time. My models are now cosidered classic and get quite a few comments about how cool they are. The problem is the second I admit that I don't buy anymore some apologist comes over and says "since you don't buy anything, you don't get an opinion." The problem is, that's my entire point. I won't give my business to a company that charges too much while dictating to and insulting it's customers. One of those faults is ok, but not all of them put together.

-Milk has nothing to do with the price of games workshop. The price of milk also has a lot of price controls from governments. Gas/fuel certainly does have a relationship with GW prices, as everything needs to be shipped, and the price of fuel adds to the base cost of everything. Metal prices is a much better thing to look at. Instead of pointing out that milk is up 60% in 20 years, we could observe that Tin and Antimony went up 400% in the last 5 years, and that 20 years ago GW was able to use much cheaper lead alloys, before the switch to non-lead alloys a decade ago.

I used milk because he brought it up. Metal prices have gone up, even plastic prices have gone up. The price of GW goods actually has nothing to do with the cost of material though. Resin is by far cheaper than metal, but they have raised the price for that, even though other companies dropped or maintained their prices when they switched. However forgeworld has convinced GW that resin is worth it's weight in gold.

-The 30 marines you bought back than were not as good as the current models.

You are right, they were not! They worked though, and at the time they were pretty revolutionary. I bet if you look at production costs and possibly even materials cost they were more expensive to make simply based on volume. GW must sell 100 times the amount of miniatures they sold in 1990.

-Very few kids cut the lawn for money. 90% of their money (at least the few hundred buying from me) get the cash directly from their parents/grandparents.

Maybe where you come from. Where I'm from kids work at grocery stores, fast food, restaurants any place that will hire them. Now maybe you are talking about 10 year olds, well I guess that is GW's new market.

I agree with that the constant price hikes can get on your nerves. For me, as a retailer selling GW, it's a dozen times worse. Always depressing to see them coming around again.

Really? You retail the price proportionately though right? By definition every time GW charges more, you make more. When I bought that box for $20, the store made $10, So on a $40 box you should be making $20 for 1/3 the product. You have to deal with complaints more I'm sure. But your average purchase per customer per visit must be much higher. It's why I stock craft beers at my bar, some people want to pay extra, I'm fine with that, but I still have BPR on tap for everyone else. I don't force everyone to buy Stone IPA.

Anymore people know they can expect normal price hikes at least twice a year like clockwork, then there are the bonus excuse price hikes like finecost, or oil crisis that seam to show up every year. It's crazy.

While we're on the constant price hikes part of the thread, I just got to add in that man I hate seeing a 10 to fifteen year old model go up in price the way they do. For instance, back before the plastic wraithlord, there was of course the metal one. In 1992 I could buy that mini for $10 Usd, in 2007 that same mini (I do acknowledge there were a few parts replaced in 15 years) sold for over $30 USD. Honestly I don't get why. The last time they worked on the molds was probably a decade ago....metal prices haven't gone up that much, neither has the distribution costs. Anyways you can sub in many of their items: Falcon (which is another big one), Wraithguard, Rhino, Land Raider, SM Bikes....The list goes on and on.

I don't mind paying more money for new stuff, keeping with the current economy. But having fond memories of buying the same exact items in the past for noticably cheaper in a time where my dollar isn't taking me as far...I gotta say it gets to me. IMO the work on these items was done long ago. I don't see how GW could miss the pricing strategy where pricing less will attract and keep new recruits while still keeping the vets happy. $45 sell 100 units, $35 sells 300 units - $4500 vs $10,500 - The product costs are all in the initial setup when you start a line, always has been. Once setup costs have been satisfied, hell why not go for it.

Anyways, I'm focusing on the stuff I've seen rise in price ten times or more in the past ten years. The new stuff that comes in at its price I don't have much of a problem with. Hell go to CoolMiniOrNot and look up other lines, they're just as expensive if not more for single minis (I'm currently looking at paying $24USD for a single 32mm resin just cuz I like it). The problem is we play 40k which ain't no skirmish game, and that requires a lot of miniatures. So when we see a price hike we either groan for ourselves or groan for others. Cuz if you don't groan for others, what happens when GW hikes your prices?

-MightyG

You mean like these! $30 for the set is $6 a piece. I remember when you could get them all for $6

Andrew1975 wrote: Really? You retail the price proportionately though right? By definition every time GW charges more, you make more. When I bought that box for $20, the store made $10, So on a $40 box you should be making $20 for 1/3 the product. You have to deal with complaints more I'm sure. But your average purchase per customer per visit must be much higher. It's why I stock craft beers at my bar, some people want to pay extra, I'm fine with that, but I still have BPR on tap for everyone else. I don't force everyone to buy Stone IPA.

No. Everytime GW charges more, I go through hell for the next two months. Imagine sitting at a counter, and all your friends come in, and one by one vent about GW, then leave the store because they want to prove they aren't going to buy GW. It's so much fun. I don't like argueing with friends, don't like telling them to please not vent around the people who do want to buy models. It's just not a fun time.

You say 'by definition', but there isn't one for profit in a game store. Some people decide to skip buying at a higher price, some decide it's time to go to warmachine. Most just feel the need to complain for a month, and then catch up on purchases later. There are countless threads showing that GW's sales are static, but price is going up, and number units going down. If I have static sales, then I'm not making any more profit. I just get to sit and have my friends and customers beat me up over the latest price hike.

The ironic bit is, I don't adjust my GW prices right away. If I bought a 10.00 blister, it stays 10.00 until it sells. If the new one comes in with an 11.00 price tag, it gets tagged that way. If something hasn't sold, why mark it up more? I paid a wholesale price based on the lower price, so I'll keep it at the lower price until I have to pay more to replace it.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
What else can you say about someone that admits they have bad practices and whose only response is suck it up. I haven't bought anything in quite some time. My models are now cosidered classic and get quite a few comments about how cool they are. The problem is the second I admit that I don't buy anymore some apologist comes over and says "since you don't buy anything, you don't get an opinion." The problem is, that's my entire point. I won't give my business to a company that charges too much while dictating to and insulting it's customers. One of those faults is ok, but not all of them put together.

I'd call him a gamer that likes to paint/play with GW miniatures. You don't want to buy more, that's fine, you're choice. Why can't you accept his choice to buy miniatures he likes?

I hear your pain. The few times beer companies have raised their priced I was forced to charge 25 cents more per bottle of beer. I heard an earful. If I had to deal with a company with chronic price increases like GW I'd probably just stop carrying them. That's why competition is nice.

He can buy all that he wants. I didn't tell him to stop buying. But he's defending GW's price increases and telling people he's sick of hearing people complain about a legitimate issue. Show me another plastic company that has raised prices on their product by 800%. If plastic was the real reason, then GI joes should be $24 a piece instead of $8. They price their product on what the market will bare, no matter what they say it has little or nothing to do with the cost of materials.

mikhaila wrote:The ironic bit is, I don't adjust my GW prices right away. If I bought a 10.00 blister, it stays 10.00 until it sells. If the new one comes in with an 11.00 price tag, it gets tagged that way. If something hasn't sold, why mark it up more? I paid a wholesale price based on the lower price, so I'll keep it at the lower price until I have to pay more to replace it.

My FLGS does the same thing. My son had an urge to paint up some Tau Crisis suits so we went over there. 3 units 19.95, 4 units 22.95....son I hope you which ones to purchase.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
What else can you say about someone that admits they have bad practices and whose only response is suck it up. I haven't bought anything in quite some time. My models are now cosidered classic and get quite a few comments about how cool they are. The problem is the second I admit that I don't buy anymore some apologist comes over and says "since you don't buy anything, you don't get an opinion." The problem is, that's my entire point. I won't give my business to a company that charges too much while dictating to and insulting it's customers. One of those faults is ok, but not all of them put together.

mikhaila wrote:
I'd call him a gamer that likes to paint/play with GW miniatures. You don't want to buy more, that's fine, you're choice. Why can't you accept his choice to buy miniatures he likes?

One of the poor masses who's fallen in love with 40k, but is at the mercy of GW.

MightyG

-Very few kids cut the lawn for money. 90% of their money (at least the few hundred buying from me) get the cash directly from their parents/grandparents.

Maybe where you come from. Where I'm from kids work at grocery stores, fast food, restaurants any place that will hire them. Now maybe you are talking about 10 year olds, well I guess that is GW's new market.

You'r obviously in a much better part of the world. 14-18 year olds are having a hard time finding any type of job. Their in competition with a large group of out of work adults.)

But seriously, I've got data on 22 years of sales at my stores. A great part of that is me personally dealing with the GW customers and ringing them up. The vast majority of the customers under 18 get the bulk of their money from family, not working.

This is a large point that I make to new store owners and would be store owners when I do a seminar, or just in discussion on retailer forums. Many stores mistakenly think they should be marketing to kids, when really they should be putting their attention to the moths and grandparents. This is where the money comes from to buy GW and a lot of other lines of products. You don't have to convince a 12-17 year old he wants to play warhammer.

It's easier for me to sell GW than other stores. We run weekly painting classes, and have a clean, bright store in a suburban mall. Parents don't mind dropping the kids off to play. They pay far more for art classes, karate, soccer leagues, and any of the dozen other activities parents seem to think kids need to do these days. Warhammer is cheap by comparison, and they like to see the kids interacting with other people, not sitting at home playing video games.

mikhaila wrote:-Very few kids cut the lawn for money. 90% of their money (at least the few hundred buying from me) get the cash directly from their parents/grandparents.

Maybe where you come from. Where I'm from kids work at grocery stores, fast food, restaurants any place that will hire them. Now maybe you are talking about 10 year olds, well I guess that is GW's new market.

You'r obviously in a much better part of the world. 14-18 year olds are having a hard time finding any type of job. Their in competition with a large group of out of work adults.)

But seriously, I've got data on 22 years of sales at my stores. A great part of that is me personally dealing with the GW customers and ringing them up. The vast majority of the customers under 18 get the bulk of their money from family, not working.

This is a large point that I make to new store owners and would be store owners when I do a seminar, or just in discussion on retailer forums. Many stores mistakenly think they should be marketing to kids, when really they should be putting their attention to the moths and grandparents. This is where the money comes from to buy GW and a lot of other lines of products. You don't have to convince a 12-17 year old he wants to play warhammer.

That is an interesting observation - the sales demographic in your area certainly sounds like it is fairly polarized between the haves (kids funded by parents) and the have-nots (kids can't find jobs because adults are out of work). Do you find the pool of kids funded by parents is staying stable - or is this diminishing as the prices go up / economy continues to stagnate?