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GW has an addiction to change. Everyone playing their games are stuck in Limbo of what to do. GW puts out new rules and miniatures on such a haphazard scale no one, not even GW can keep up. Where is the organization to this stuff, it’s a game. Organization should be the easiest piece of the puzzle, since you control what happens!!

I am not saying GW should stop changing things, just do it in a more sensible manner. New Edition put it on a schedule, every ten years only, period. Make a new army book every five years, period. How much updates to the edition or book should be allowed? Only as much is needed, and apply what you have done to one book to every book. Don’t start from scratch every time. GW does try to do this mind you but obviously it doesn’t happen.

Some of the things I will point out, the Beastmen Army book released months before the new edition. Why did they do that? They new the edition was coming out why did they not have the book updated to that rules set?

The new codex for 40K, all they need is a schedule. If every codex was updated regularly then every player old or new can know what to expect for an army. Also if they followed a format to creating rules then you wouldn’t have some armies sprawling like they do. Chaos Space Marines anyone? I was reading another thread and a person said the only answer they have to effectively fight the new GK is units of Thousand Sons. I can only sympathize with the guy.

When working with anyone you need to be able to present a solid foundation to be effective, whether it is your spouse, neighbor, or the stockholders of your company. You need to show people that you are not crazy and that you can get things done. GW is on the fast train to chaos with how they are controlling the change in their IP.

First time I think anyone's ever accused GW of doing things too quickly. Not sure how I feel about this. Presumably they have a schedule. It's just not something that we are privy to. I can't speak for the beastmen book, but they kind of do that already. Orks had a lot of unique things in it that made sense after 5th edition was released. Honestly, I think they move at an appropriate pace, they're just not an agile enough company to keep up with themselves. I think that the "release an army book every five years" thing is not an answer though. An attitude of "fix it if it needs it" is a far better way of handling it, otherwise you get updates just for the sake of it, which might anger players in and of itself. (See: C:CSM)

Also, not sure what you mean by the last bit. "with how they are controlling the thing in their IP"? What changes in their IP? Are you just still talking about release schedules?

GW's problem is it is run by people who want to make the most money possible and who don't care if the game system has gaping holes in it.

GW management isn't interested in promoting the hobby of wargaming or nurturing new players into veterans, or retaining veterans. They just want your money now, and once they get it you can get stuffed.

Noisy_Marine wrote:GW's problem is it is run by people who want to make the most money possible and who don't care if the game system has gaping holes in it.

GW management isn't interested in promoting the hobby of wargaming or nurturing new players into veterans, or retaining veterans. They just want your money now, and once they get it you can get stuffed.

So does your phone company, the grocery store, and the gas station you fill your SUV up at. What's your point? GW is not your friend, and Warhammer (40k, at least) is more balanced that most people would like to admit. It's not perfect, but it could be worse.

Noisy_Marine wrote:GW's problem is it is run by people who want to make the most money possible and who don't care if the game system has gaping holes in it.

GW management isn't interested in promoting the hobby of wargaming or nurturing new players into veterans, or retaining veterans. They just want your money now, and once they get it you can get stuffed.

I realy don't get this. Take for example Jervis Johnson. He is now one of GWs long-term strategy managers. He has been instramental in GWs sucess and the groth or wargaming and roleplay in the UK, and in other parts of the world. As much as people complaine around here the simple fact is that GW, whatever there failings, and the guys that run it, are hobbyists and have done more for the hobby than just about anyone this side of Gary Gygax.

Paul wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:GW's problem is it is run by people who want to make the most money possible and who don't care if the game system has gaping holes in it.

GW management isn't interested in promoting the hobby of wargaming or nurturing new players into veterans, or retaining veterans. They just want your money now, and once they get it you can get stuffed.

I realy don't get this. Take for example Jervis Johnson. He is now one of GWs long-term strategy managers. He has been instramental in GWs sucess and the groth or wargaming and roleplay in the UK, and in other parts of the world. As much as people complaine around here the simple fact is that GW, whatever there failings, and the guys that run it, are hobbyists and have done more for the hobby than just about anyone this side of Gary Gygax.

Apart from the fact that GW isn't run by hobbyists and hasn't been since the management buy out. Jervis, for good or bad, is oft seen as the public face of GW but he is neither a mover nor a shaker within GW, for that you are looking at Mr Kirby and Mr Wells.

daedalus wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:GW's problem is it is run by people who want to make the most money possible and who don't care if the game system has gaping holes in it.

GW management isn't interested in promoting the hobby of wargaming or nurturing new players into veterans, or retaining veterans. They just want your money now, and once they get it you can get stuffed.

So does your phone company, the grocery store, and the gas station you fill your SUV up at. What's your point? GW is not your friend, and Warhammer (40k, at least) is more balanced that most people would like to admit. It's not perfect, but it could be worse.

I know they are not my friend. But GW goes out of its way to alienate customers and avoid marketing opportunities. Do you know of another company that behaves that way?

Apple, in a lot of ways. Google "Steve Jobs Reality Distortion field." They stubbornly refuse to acknowledge anything exists outside themselves and they hype underwhelming/flawed products as AMAZING+1! Google "you're holding it wrong." They withhold product announcements until some big announcement time.

I think it's the natural operating procedure for any company that markets itself as a "lifestyle" rather than a "product".

Jervis is preaching to the choir though isnt he? He writes in WD every month in standard bearer extolling the virtues of fair play, roleplaying, campaigns etc, telling us about how much bloody fun the hobby is, whilst I enjoy his articles I don't need this, I know how much bloody fun the hobby can be. What I need is for Jervis to turn round and start telling the board of directors about all the ways of making the hobby fun. Sadly I feel that Jervis has very little clout or voice. GW is completely out of touch with their customer base, I dont believe that the guys that really run things are hobbyists because they have almost no comprehension of what the hobby is about.

You say GW senior management have done alot for the hobby? Not recently! So far over the last 10 years or so they have done the following: Removed the facillity to order seperate bits direct (remember the mail order trolls anyone?), Ignored then almost actively discouraged any stores or WD article from attempting to inspire players and hobbyists into making their own scenery rather than buying the GW stuff, Codex Creep (nuff said) WD being downgraded into a 4 quid a month catalogue showing stuff thats been on the internet for the past 6 weeks, Conversion and painting articles all but dissapearing from WD, no more summer campaigns. I could go on.

@ daedalus: with respect your phone company, grocery store or petrol station are not the same as a hobby to a person and while I concur that I dont expect a corporation of any kind to be my friend I expect them to respect their long-term, loyal customers, my phone company values me more than GW does without a doubt and I'm probably a much greater percentage of GWs income than I am of an international mobile network's.

Noisy_Marine wrote:

daedalus wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:GW's problem is it is run by people who want to make the most money possible and who don't care if the game system has gaping holes in it.

GW management isn't interested in promoting the hobby of wargaming or nurturing new players into veterans, or retaining veterans. They just want your money now, and once they get it you can get stuffed.

So does your phone company, the grocery store, and the gas station you fill your SUV up at. What's your point? GW is not your friend, and Warhammer (40k, at least) is more balanced that most people would like to admit. It's not perfect, but it could be worse.

I know they are not my friend. But GW goes out of its way to alienate customers and avoid marketing opportunities. Do you know of another HOBBY company that behaves that way?

Be more specific.

Do we know of any other war gaming hobby company that treats it's community with such vile and contempt as GW?

No, not a single one, not even close. GW is at the bottom of the barrel with this regard.

Of course every company has issues such as this, I was talking to the fact the GW doesn't handle it better. Of course it could be worse but it needs to be better for GW to be a trusted company.

Overall the grocery store, phone company etc, provides a stable enviroment for consumers. You go to the store you are going to get what you want and see.

GW on the other hand is slow on releasing items and unstable. Something that has taken decades to release will only be usable for a few short months. Very unstable, their biggest enemy is themselves and they don't even see it.

@deaduls I was speaking about the changes to the IP, such as rules, story arc, release schedule etc. It is haphazard and not consistent. You mentioned that a fix it as needed approach would be better than a schedule. I disagree look at the games times, changes occur daily, new ways of doing things will always be prevelant but not necessarily needed. You start trying to fix thing as needed is what GW is currently doing and it can only be based on opinion. For example, true line of sight a good change in most gamers opinion but was it really needed?

Gw hardly operate a fix it as needed policy atm, there are currently about 4 outdated 40k dexes and about 3 fantasy ones some of these are over 10 years old and are nigh on useless in competitive games or restricted to a single playable list at best. However I would bet money on the fact that we will see 2 new marine dexes including a new codex space marines, which isnt even 3yrs old yet before all of these get done.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:
You say GW senior management have done alot for the hobby? Not recently! So far over the last 10 years or so they have done the following: Removed the facillity to order seperate bits direct (remember the mail order trolls anyone?), Ignored then almost actively discouraged any stores or WD article from attempting to inspire players and hobbyists into making their own scenery rather than buying the GW stuff, Codex Creep (nuff said) WD being downgraded into a 4 quid a month catalogue showing stuff thats been on the internet for the past 6 weeks, Conversion and painting articles all but dissapearing from WD, no more summer campaigns. I could go on.

I won't argue this. Other than token moments, WD is generally worthless.

@ daedalus: with respect your phone company, grocery store or petrol station are not the same as a hobby to a person and while I concur that I dont expect a corporation of any kind to be my friend I expect them to respect their long-term, loyal customers, my phone company values me more than GW does without a doubt and I'm probably a much greater percentage of GWs income than I am of an international mobile network's.

That's fair, though I feel like Verizon is trying harder to screw me at the moment that GW generally does. I don't know. I just don't feel this sense of constant betrayal that everyone else has, but maybe I set my expectations too low from the beginning. The things I expect from GW:
1. Quality Models
2. Consistent and Functional Rules

I've been getting number 1 so far. The finecast stuff is a bit of a scare, though my terminator librarian turned out fine. My roommate got a mangled jump pack Chaplin and called GW. Three days later he had a replacement in his hand. It still had issues but between the two he had a functional one, and now he has some extra bits that can be cleaned up and used elsewhere. In this day and age, that's amazing customer service. Number 2 people scoff at, and in all honest, I have problems with the rules myself, they're not perfect. No one claims they are. However, when a Necron army can still beat BA/GK, they can't be THAT far out of whack. Anything I get from GW beyond that is just gravy. They want to throw some prize money at a tournament, awesome. They want to put up free datasheets and rules for units? Cool. They aren't things I require for MY hobby though. I will make up my own units, play with an ancient codex, or do whatever until they get around to finally releasing something. Is it annoying? Yes. Did I want to have to wait so many years for the GK codex? No. Am I even thrilled about the entirety of the GK codex? Not really. There could have been things I think that could have been done that would have been a lot better. At the end of the day though, it's just another product, and it performs within the tolerances needed for my purposes.

I feel like I'm being forced into the role of being an apologist here, which is uncomfortable for me, because I have no love for GW, but I really feel like the rampant GW hate and bitterness is getting out of hand. If you really don't like it, then quit. Leave the GW oriented sections of Dakka, stop buying GW, and walk away. Pick up FoW, WM, Mantic, or any of the other perfectly good systems out there currently.

edit: CBA, sorry.

NEW NECRON CODEX! PLEAASSSEEEE!!!

@deadalus You quit lol, I don't really see why discussing the negatives of a subject is "hate" and "bitterness". Maybe you are understanding me wrong.

We all know the problems with GW, I am just saying that those can be tied back to how GW allows those problems to come to the fore. For me it is hpow they handle the aspect of change. Everyone experiences change but GW does not handle it very well.

Finecast is a good example when did people find out about 3 seconds before it hit the shelf. Why? GW should have come up with better way to do that.

Also this thread doesn't have to be a rant, I suggested a BETTER way to do things. A consistent transperant schedule. Yes it can be difficult to maintain but at the same time if it is transparent it can be easliy adjusted.

Example, "Hello all you gamer gals and guys out their. SBS here we at your friendly game producing company follow a strict policy of making sure our rules are up to date and fair. As you know every two years we go back and look at each army and double check to make sure that rules, story, and look are all up to date and current to the rest of the games. Sadly todate we must address the fact that this schedule has been a bit overtaxing lately. Never the less we are still committed to Warblasters of the Far Future and feel that it is the best quality game available currently. So finally the bad news instead of updating each army every two years we have changed this to every four years. Which we feel is more appropiate to blah blah bal."

You could even come up with a monthly magazine to put these announcement in....

Pael wrote:
@deaduls I was speaking about the changes to the IP, such as rules, story arc, release schedule etc. It is haphazard and not consistent. You mentioned that a fix it as needed approach would be better than a schedule. I disagree look at the games times, changes occur daily, new ways of doing things will always be prevelant but not necessarily needed. You start trying to fix thing as needed is what GW is currently doing and it can only be based on opinion. For example, true line of sight a good change in most gamers opinion but was it really needed?

It looks haphazard, but is it really? I'm not part of the design team. I don't know if it's completely ramshackle or just looks that way from this side of the glass. As far as true line of sight goes, if it was a good change in the eyes of most of the gamers (customers) then it is an improvement to 'user experience', so I would say that they're fixing something that was broken. User experience was less that 100% of what the theoretical maximum is, so that took steps to bring it in line with what it should be. Also, if they're doing things that could be considered a good change in most gamers opinion, wouldn't that be an indication that GW is actually trying to give you what you want?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pael wrote:@deadalus You quit lol, I don't really see why discussing the negatives of a subject is "hate" and "bitterness". Maybe you are understanding me wrong.

The hate and bitterness wasn't necessarily directed at you, but moreso at these general types of threads. It's the kinds of people that these threads eventually bring in, typically by bottom of page 2, sometimes top of page 3.

We all know the problems with GW, I am just saying that those can be tied back to how GW allows those problems to come to the fore. For me it is hpow they handle the aspect of change. Everyone experiences change but GW does not handle it very well.

Finecast is a good example when did people find out about 3 seconds before it hit the shelf. Why? GW should have come up with better way to do that.

Also this thread doesn't have to be a rant, I suggested a BETTER way to do things. A consistent transperant schedule. Yes it can be difficult to maintain but at the same time if it is transparent it can be easliy adjusted.

Example, "Hello all you gamer gals and guys out their. SBS here we at your friendly game producing company follow a strict policy of making sure our rules are up to date and fair. As you know every two years we go back and look at each army and double check to make sure that rules, story, and look are all up to date and current to the rest of the games. Sadly todate we must address the fact that this schedule has been a bit overtaxing lately. Never the less we are still committed to Warblasters of the Far Future and feel that it is the best quality game available currently. So finally the bad news instead of updating each army every two years we have changed this to every four years. Which we feel is more appropiate to blah blah bal."

You could even come up with a monthly magazine to put these announcement in....

I see what you are saying, however, I'm not aware of any company who ever publicly address their customers with 'bad news'. They do announce releases and whatnot about a month or so prior to release. How much earlier than that would you prefer? The finecast thing has been a SNAFU from the get-go from the way it seems so it would make sense that they not announce it properly.

daedalus wrote: I see what you are saying, however, I'm not aware of any company who ever publicly address their customers with 'bad news'. They do announce releases and whatnot about a month or so prior to release. How much earlier than that would you prefer? The finecast thing has been a SNAFU from the get-go from the way it seems so it would make sense that they not announce it properly.

Depends on the company and the "bad news" a change to planned releases happens all the time and isn't really "bad" news just how things go. What I really, really see that GW needs to do but isn't is come up with a better format than what they have been doing for say 10+ years.

Specifically a more stable system. If the rules didn't change so often would there really be a need for all the FAQ? Look at the FAQ released for the overall of Fantasy. If they had preempted the change by updateing the rules for Beastmen and possibly even Skaven how much FAQ would they need?

daedalus wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:GW's problem is it is run by people who want to make the most money possible and who don't care if the game system has gaping holes in it.

GW management isn't interested in promoting the hobby of wargaming or nurturing new players into veterans, or retaining veterans. They just want your money now, and once they get it you can get stuffed.

So does your phone company, the grocery store, and the gas station you fill your SUV up at. What's your point? GW is not your friend, and Warhammer (40k, at least) is more balanced that most people would like to admit. It's not perfect, but it could be worse.

But many other companies realize that it is easier and cheaper to keep an existing customer than it is to find a new one. Those companies know that treating your existing customers well will retain their business and encourage those customers to refer their friends and family to that company.

While there are a lot of things GW does right, there is much they could do to improve their relationship with their customer base. A decade ago they were in an absolutely dominant place in the tabletop wargaming industry; if they had played their cards better, there wouldn't be losing more and more market share to their newer competitors.

i like open letter to GW from miniwargaming, i think they do a good job explaining customers and vendors frustrations, and possible solutions, but then again its a small company critiquing a large company so its easier to say what to do than actually do it, i dunno, its a complicated situation

You have no idea what a fast moving format is like. In Magic the best decks are good for only a month or two at a time.

With respect Aus-Rotten Magic decks dont tend to have quite the blood sweat and tears go into them on the whole than most people put in their armies which is why they have a right to expect them to have hitting power for slightly longer.

@daedalus I agree with you on the quality of the models wholeheartedly with the exceptions of the odd fugly mini, outdated characters( I'm looking in your direction Mr Blackmane) and a few QC issues with FW and finecast, all of which GW has sorted out post haste, I have nothing but praise for the citadel range.

However I do have a slight beef with the state of competitiveness with the codexes especially marine dexes, I like marines especially wolves and BA but I dont think they should be "better" than any other dex, I appreciate that dex functionality will degrade over time but I think that would happen naturaly anyway without GW helping things along with the codex creeping that goes on.

Part of the reason I chose to do a fluff themed Heresy Era BA army is because I wanted to distance myself from any codex jumpers. I got no problem with people being won over by new fluff or exciting new models but when its a case of jumping to the current most competitive dex that turns my stomach.

That codex creep being one of the issues that the OP is seeing as a problem IMO, balance and playability is what we are looking for not OMG if I don't rush out and buy this new B@#*S^%# book and minis then I won't be competitive!

That being said I sure don't want anymore of the ... well lets make everything the same! BS that has been the hallmark of the 8th ed army books for fantasy, they have great fluff USE IT

cheers
Papasmurf

play armies because you like them, not because they are currently rocking the park, good point ugly trog, i hate them as well

How has nobody posted a Barack Obama picture with the word "Change" at the bottom yet in this thread? Seriously?! I'd do it if I knew how to put pictures in my posts

Another thing to remember:

The upper management (Wells, Kirby, etc.,) at GW have no reason whatsoever to change.

They're all rich from their bonuses during the LOTR years and as long as they can keep revenues relatively stable and occasionally turn a profit (which they will promptly be paid out as a dividend into their pockets thanks to the stock options they issued themselves) they can go on like this for years and get richer and richer.

GW has little to no debt and has slashed it's operating costs down to the bare minimum. They're likely not going anywhere any time soon.

But let's say they do. Let's say there's a mass exodus of their customers and they start losing money like crazy. And then they go bust.

And then Kirby and Wells klink their champaign glasses on a beach on some tropical island, having retired as multi-millionaires.

The people in charge of GW have no reason whatsoever to change. What they are doing now is working for them. It's made them rich.

daedalus wrote:If you really don't like it, then quit. Leave the GW oriented sections of Dakka, stop buying GW, and walk away. Pick up FoW, WM, Mantic, or any of the other perfectly good systems out there currently.

Again we have this non-argument. How many times must it be said:

Not liking GW =/= not liking 40K.

One thing to ask is why do they make 2 games that are basically unplayable for some people? If they would just revise one game at a time it would work better. Redo 40k, finish it, redo Fantasy, finish it. The way they have been doing it, they are both in a constant state of flux. People can't play their armies, when their update finally does come.....here is the new edition.

The title of this thread is misleading...

I had thought this was a thread regarding the price-rise resulting in no change in our pockets

daedalus wrote:So does your phone company, the grocery store, and the gas station you fill your SUV up at. What's your point? GW is not your friend, and Warhammer (40k, at least) is more balanced that most people would like to admit. It's not perfect, but it could be worse.

GW really wants to be your friend, though, because unlike food or gas, 40k isn't a necessity and you can give it up much more easily. No one else has any reason to do you favors because they know you'll keep coming back, you have to.