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Kanluwen wrote:

Are you saying that any sort of exposure to a daemonic force means that the IG regiment is corrupted? What's the point then? The Guardsmen are either dead or corrupted.

Exposure to a daemonic force, if unprepared or untrained to resist it, will result in corruption inevitably.

So that implies that Cadians undergo some sort of anti-deamonic training?

That's the nature of Chaos. What it doesn't destroy, it renders untrustworthy and potentially unusable. Is that necessarily going to be the case?

Perhaps, perhaps not. But why risk having an entire regiment turn traitor?

And it falls down to the Grey Knights to carry this out? There are probably hundred regiments that have come into contact with a Deamon incursion for every single Grey Knight.

Pilau Rice wrote:So what happens to the regiments that have fought against daemons and survived but without the assistance of Grey Knights?

I mean like in Graham McNeills Pestilence, an excellent short story well worth a read, a planet is under siege by the forces of Nurgle. The Guard and Doom Eagles win without help from Grey Knights and they all live happily ever after. Or do they?

This kinda thing happening, I can imagine, is pretty common on Cadia. Cadians are accustomed to the forces of the daemon so maybe they are let off. But not everyone is, which I assume is why Armageddon went down the way it did afterwards.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Are you saying that any sort of exposure to a daemonic force means that the IG regiment is corrupted? What's the point then? The Guardsmen are either dead or corrupted.

Exposure to a daemonic force, if unprepared or untrained to resist it, will result in corruption inevitably.

So that implies that Cadians undergo some sort of anti-deamonic training?

It implies that Cadia is, at best, a place where they're "used to" this sort of thing.

That's the nature of Chaos. What it doesn't destroy, it renders untrustworthy and potentially unusable. Is that necessarily going to be the case?

Perhaps, perhaps not. But why risk having an entire regiment turn traitor?

And it falls down to the Grey Knights to carry this out? There are probably hundred regiments that have come into contact with a Deamon incursion for every single Grey Knight.

"Falls down to the Grey Knights to carry out" what? The execution of the Guard in contact with Daemonic incursions?
No. That's the Commissariat and Inquisition. In many cases, the risk of actual taint might be considered minimal and the Guard left alone.

Full on Daemonic incursions where the skies rain blood and the planet starts vomiting up the dead, there's going to be a sudden "disappearance" of the Guard Regiments involved.

Kanluwen wrote:It implies that Cadia is, at best, a place where they're "used to" this sort of thing.

Hardly. Cadia is right in the thick of any Chaos incursion, but it's not like when daemons show up it's "just another day". Cadians don't appear to be immune to the sort of corruption that affects other regiments, or if they are the reason behind it is never explained.

"Falls down to the Grey Knights to carry out" what? The execution of the Guard in contact with Daemonic incursions?
No. That's the Commissariat and Inquisition. In many cases, the risk of actual taint might be considered minimal and the Guard left alone.

It's not really the role of the Commissariat, at least not anymore than ensuring the guardsmen keep in line. Sure, a commissar might execute a guardsman, or quite a few, if they developed signs of taint, but not on a regimental level.

Full on Daemonic incursions where the skies rain blood and the planet starts vomiting up the dead, there's going to be a sudden "disappearance" of the Guard Regiments involved.

So what about Mordia? That was a pretty full-on daemonic incursion. Same for the Tallarn (who, on top of fighting daemons, had a short alliance with the Eldar). Neither of these mentioned any sort of purge after their victory.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It implies that Cadia is, at best, a place where they're "used to" this sort of thing.

Hardly. Cadia is right in the thick of any Chaos incursion, but it's not like when daemons show up it's "just another day". Cadians don't appear to be immune to the sort of corruption that affects other regiments, or if they are the reason behind it is never explained.

And yet, when Daemons show up it's not exactly a world shattering event.

To quote Eisenhorn, "Cadia breeds recidivists and heretics like a pond breeds scum". Minor level daemonic incursions aren't rare, and the Cadian sector is big enough that it's not hard to believe there are some plants with more daemonic incursions or presences than you think.

"Falls down to the Grey Knights to carry out" what? The execution of the Guard in contact with Daemonic incursions?
No. That's the Commissariat and Inquisition. In many cases, the risk of actual taint might be considered minimal and the Guard left alone.

It's not really the role of the Commissariat, at least not anymore than ensuring the guardsmen keep in line. Sure, a commissar might execute a guardsman, or quite a few, if they developed signs of taint, but not on a regimental level.

Read the post again.
Commissariat and Inquisition, if we go off the one and only event worth mentioning right now which is the return of the Gereon Mission Team, have the ability to conduct a sort of 'review panel' to decide if someone's tainted or not.

Full on Daemonic incursions where the skies rain blood and the planet starts vomiting up the dead, there's going to be a sudden "disappearance" of the Guard Regiments involved.

So what about Mordia? That was a pretty full-on daemonic incursion. Same for the Tallarn (who, on top of fighting daemons, had a short alliance with the Eldar). Neither of these mentioned any sort of purge after their victory.

Spoiler:

BTW, the battles for Mordia and Tallarn are one of my favourite pieces of fluff.

More likely than not, it's because those pieces of fluff are holdovers from earlier on or considered to be 'pass' events due to the extraordinary circumstances.

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:It implies that Cadia is, at best, a place where they're "used to" this sort of thing.

Hardly. Cadia is right in the thick of any Chaos incursion, but it's not like when daemons show up it's "just another day". Cadians don't appear to be immune to the sort of corruption that affects other regiments, or if they are the reason behind it is never explained.

And yet, when Daemons show up it's not exactly a world shattering event.

To quote Eisenhorn, "Cadia breeds recidivists and heretics like a pond breeds scum". Minor level daemonic incursions aren't rare, and the Cadian sector is big enough that it's not hard to believe there are some plants with more daemonic incursions or presences than you think.

More heretics and recidivists doesn't mean daemones are any every occurence. An Inquisitors work is bound to give them greater chance of coming into contact with daemons. Besides...

"Falls down to the Grey Knights to carry out" what? The execution of the Guard in contact with Daemonic incursions?
No. That's the Commissariat and Inquisition. In many cases, the risk of actual taint might be considered minimal and the Guard left alone.

It's not really the role of the Commissariat, at least not anymore than ensuring the guardsmen keep in line. Sure, a commissar might execute a guardsman, or quite a few, if they developed signs of taint, but not on a regimental level.

Read the post again.
Commissariat and Inquisition, if we go off the one and only event worth mentioning right now which is the return of the Gereon Mission Team, have the ability to conduct a sort of 'review panel' to decide if someone's tainted or not.

I think that would be because Gaunt was a Commissar.

Full on Daemonic incursions where the skies rain blood and the planet starts vomiting up the dead, there's going to be a sudden "disappearance" of the Guard Regiments involved.

So what about Mordia? That was a pretty full-on daemonic incursion. Same for the Tallarn (who, on top of fighting daemons, had a short alliance with the Eldar). Neither of these mentioned any sort of purge after their victory.

Spoiler:

BTW, the battles for Mordia and Tallarn are one of my favourite pieces of fluff.

More likely than not, it's because those pieces of fluff are holdovers from earlier on or considered to be 'pass' events due to the extraordinary circumstances.

Or, rather than dismissing any source you don't like the look of, it could point out the contradictory nature of this new fluff.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Or, rather than dismissing any source you don't like the look of, it could point out the contradictory nature of this new fluff.

Lol?

This isn't exactly "new" fluff where Guard regiments are killed afterwards. This started with the First Battle for Armageddon, was mentioned in Codex: Daemonhunters as one of the "hooks" for fighting Imperial Guard, and has been in other sources like Planetstrike's book.

Emperors Faithful wrote:More heretics and recidivists doesn't mean daemones are any every occurence. An Inquisitors work is bound to give them greater chance of coming into contact with daemons. Besides...

Spoiler:

The Kasrkin team that accompanied Eisenhorn hadn't faced down a daemon before. They still had balls of ceramite though.

"More heretics and recidivists" means that the Interior Guard is constantly dealing with potential Daemonic incursions. That was the point you clearly missed in my post.

I don't remember anything in particular saying the Kasrkin hadn't faced down a Daemon before, it implied more that they hadn't fought a Daemonhost before. The two are not necessarily the same thing.

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Or, rather than dismissing any source you don't like the look of, it could point out the contradictory nature of this new fluff.

Lol?

This isn't exactly "new" fluff where Guard regiments are killed afterwards. This started with the First Battle for Armageddon, was mentioned in Codex: Daemonhunters as one of the "hooks" for fighting Imperial Guard, and has been in other sources like Planetstrike's book.

Yeah, I've already said I think Armageddon was an exception, becuase of the presence of a Deamon Primarch, whose very existence flies in the face of Imperial beliefs of the Horus Heresy. It would be like the Catholic Church covering up the fact that the Archangel Gabriel actually got his arse kicked and one of the major daemons of the bible has been running around unchecked. It kind of breaks the fantasy that the Emperor, and the Imperium, is indeed all-powerful.

Why is it that your average guardsmen is let off scot-free after witnessing Greater Deamon tear up an Armoured Company, while another regiment is slaughtered wholescale after beating down a deamon incursion? It's not hard to see the inconsistency.

Emperors Faithful wrote:More heretics and recidivists doesn't mean daemones are any every occurence. An Inquisitors work is bound to give them greater chance of coming into contact with daemons. Besides...

Spoiler:

The Kasrkin team that accompanied Eisenhorn hadn't faced down a daemon before. They still had balls of ceramite though.

"More heretics and recidivists" means that the Interior Guard is constantly dealing with potential Daemonic incursions. That was the point you clearly missed in my post.

I was just pointing out that daemons, while more prevalent in an area like Cadia, are hardly common. At all. Certainly not enough for the populace in general to have built up some sort of 'immunity' to them.

I don't remember anything in particular saying the Kasrkin hadn't faced down a Daemon before, it implied more that they hadn't fought a Daemonhost before. The two are not necessarily the same thing.

Seeing as how unbound Deamons are described as being far more powerful than deamonhosts (depending on the binds used) then yeah, it's even less likely the Kasrkin had fought daemons.

Chaos Marines and Heretics bring Chaos with them too, as well as it being very close to them due to their close vicinity to the Eye. Over 10,000 years, they would have built a culture which steels themselves pretty well against the Daemonic.

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Why is it that your average guardsmen is let off scot-free after witnessing Greater Deamon tear up an Armoured Company, while another regiment is slaughtered wholescale after beating down a deamon incursion? It's not hard to see the inconsistency

The Grey Knights weren't involved in the first instance

Joking aside, were there Grey Knights in the Eye of Terror campaign at all?

Edit: found this out from the 8th Newsletter of the campaign

The Grey Knights of the Ordo Malleus, each one of them more than a match for the shock troops of Chaos leading Abaddon’s assault, teleport onto the daemon-infested battlefields of Kasr Holn and Xersia.

But that's all that I found mentioned.

It does seem to be a bit inconsistent as to when the Grey Knights are involved and how series an incursion needs to be. Numbers could be an explanation, even more so now that they are only described as being at Chapter strength.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Why is it that your average guardsmen is let off scot-free after witnessing Greater Deamon tear up an Armoured Company, while another regiment is slaughtered wholescale after beating down a deamon incursion? It's not hard to see the inconsistency

The Grey Knights weren't involved in the first instance

Joking aside, were there Grey Knights in the Eye of Terror campaign at all?

Edit: found this out from the 8th Newsletter of the campaign

The Grey Knights of the Ordo Malleus, each one of them more than a match for the shock troops of Chaos leading Abaddon’s assault, teleport onto the daemon-infested battlefields of Kasr Holn and Xersia.

But that's all that I found mentioned.

It does seem to be a bit inconsistent as to when the Grey Knights are involved and how series an incursion needs to be. Numbers could be an explanation, even more so now that they are only described as being at Chapter strength.

There was also that really awesome apoclyptic battle.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

iproxtaco wrote:Chaos Marines and Heretics bring Chaos with them too, as well as it being very close to them due to their close vicinity to the Eye. Over 10,000 years, they would have built a culture which steels themselves pretty well against the Daemonic.

'bring Chaos'. What does that exactly mean? Is there something tangible that daemons leave behind that corrupts the survivors?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:
Or, rather than dismissing any source you don't like the look of, it could point out the contradictory nature of this new fluff.

Lol?

This isn't exactly "new" fluff where Guard regiments are killed afterwards. This started with the First Battle for Armageddon, was mentioned in Codex: Daemonhunters as one of the "hooks" for fighting Imperial Guard, and has been in other sources like Planetstrike's book.

Yeah, I've already said I think Armageddon was an exception, becuase of the presence of a Deamon Primarch, whose very existence flies in the face of Imperial beliefs of the Horus Heresy. It would be like the Catholic Church covering up the fact that the Archangel Gabriel actually got his arse kicked and one of the major daemons of the bible has been running around unchecked. It kind of breaks the fantasy that the Emperor, and the Imperium, is indeed all-powerful.

Why is it that your average guardsmen is let off scot-free after witnessing Greater Deamon tear up an Armoured Company, while another regiment is slaughtered wholescale after beating down a deamon incursion? It's not hard to see the inconsistency.

Again: I think it all comes down to the amount of exposure and how.

Simply seeing a Greater Daemon tear up an Armoured Company can be explained away or covered up as some massive Xenos-bred assault beast.

Being exposed to it, at point blank range, in the midst of an entire Daemonic incursion...different story entirely.

Emperors Faithful wrote:More heretics and recidivists doesn't mean daemons are any every occurrence. An Inquisitors work is bound to give them greater chance of coming into contact with daemons. Besides...

Spoiler:

The Kasrkin team that accompanied Eisenhorn hadn't faced down a daemon before. They still had balls of ceramite though.

"More heretics and recidivists" means that the Interior Guard is constantly dealing with potential Daemonic incursions. That was the point you clearly missed in my post.

I was just pointing out that daemons, while more prevalent in an area like Cadia, are hardly common. At all. Certainly not enough for the populace in general to have built up some sort of 'immunity' to them.

Did I say they had some sort of immunity? No.

I said that they come into contact while fighting Daemons more than most Guard regiments do. Cadians, even if they're dealing with two or three 'medium-sized' Daemonic incursions a year, are still likely ahead of the majority of Guard regiments who may never actually see a Daemonic incursion.

I don't remember anything in particular saying the Kasrkin hadn't faced down a Daemon before, it implied more that they hadn't fought a Daemonhost before. The two are not necessarily the same thing.

Seeing as how unbound Deamons are described as being far more powerful than deamonhosts (depending on the binds used) then yeah, it's even less likely the Kasrkin had fought daemons.

And an unbound Daemonhost, which Prophanti was, is described as 'roughly the same power' as a Daemon Prince. What's your point?

Emperors Faithful wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Chaos Marines and Heretics bring Chaos with them too, as well as it being very close to them due to their close vicinity to the Eye. Over 10,000 years, they would have built a culture which steels themselves pretty well against the Daemonic.

'bring Chaos'. What does that exactly mean? Is there something tangible that daemons leave behind that corrupts the survivors?

"bring Chaos", a rough phrase I used to describe the corruptive effects of those associated with the ruinous powers. The chants, mutations, the close proximity to the Warp, the psychic signature scarred in to the minds of mortals who see the acts of The Daemonic. I would expect a planet invaded by Word Bearers would be near permanently seeded with the taint.
Endless generations of a proven doctrine and honor code has obviously steeled the minds of the Cadians, else the planet would have fallen long before.

Kanluwen wrote:
Again: I think it all comes down to the amount of exposure and how.

Simply seeing a Greater Daemon tear up an Armoured Company can be explained away or covered up as some massive Xenos-bred assault beast.

Being exposed to it, at point blank range, in the midst of an entire Daemonic incursion...different story entirely.

Which would sort of make sense if the that's what they had done. But it wasn't explained away as a Xenos, the guardsmen were basically told to 'Deal with It'.

Did I say they had some sort of immunity? No.

I said that they come into contact while fighting Daemons more than most Guard regiments do. Cadians, even if they're dealing with two or three 'medium-sized' Daemonic incursions a year, are still likely ahead of the majority of Guard regiments who may never actually see a Daemonic incursion.

I don't know what you'd call 'medium-sized', but I definitely don't think they'd occur on Cadia two or three times a year. Unless this was around the same time as a major Chaos incursion.

And an unbound Daemonhost, which Prophanti was, is described as 'roughly the same power' as a Daemon Prince. What's your point?

That the Kasrkin, whilst ballsy and veteran warriors, clearly didn't have a great deal of experience with these creatures?

I think the reason they kill the regiments is that they dont want the populace to know/think how common they are