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As stated earlier, the Imperium launches tons upon tons of smaller crusades. Machria, Cadia, Armageddon, the Black Templars do it every season practically.

But on a large scale? No. Chaos Space Marines, Tyranids, and the Tau never existed, or at least weren't major threats, during the Great Crusade. The Imperium is beset on too many fronts to successfully launch a massive crusade.

But the Imperium is still expanding, but at a rate so miniscule that it doesn't matter. For every one system the discover/reconquer, there's probably 5-6 more either lost or under heavy siege.

Kazerkinelite wrote:
As long as the Imperium is the majority power in the universe the Tau won't accomplish much....I mean sneak one assault marine squad into their ranks of their fire warriors, and they're done for.

There is less than one Space Marine for every planet and there is less than one Assault Marine for every standard Space Marine so that probably isn't a significant example. The Tau are doing better than when the Imperium first discovered them anyways. It would take a large Crusade to take out the Tau, who own dozens of fortified planetary systems and as I explained earlier the Imperium doesn't have the resources to do that due to Chaos and Tyranids.

Yes. Eventually.

IIRC, the last time the Imperium tried to take out a Craftworld, they got an entire sector fleet wiped out to no benefit.

The only race the Imperium has a reasonable chance of eliminating altogether are the Tau, and even then they just don't have the resources to do so. Sure, they could, but the resources they'd need to take from elsewhere would be disastrous.

I'm a huge Imperial fanboy, and even I have to admit that the Imperium is like Germany in the World Wars, trying to hold on to too much in too many places. They can launch local counterattacks (local counter attacks for the Imperium of course mean massive crusades with thousands of ships and millions of troops), but their days of mass expansion are past. The best they can hope for is too hold out.

They would launch all of those if they could, the fact of the matter is their military forces are already stretched to its limits fighting the hundreds of not thousands of current wars. Smaller Crusade, usually at the Sector scale, are still frequently launched however.

LoneLictor wrote:
Look at the Tau rate of advancement. After a certain point, unless something manages to stop them, they'll outclass everything. They've been around for only a few thousand years and already have better technology than humanity. In six thousand years they went from cavemen who had just discovered fire, to plasma mastering space traveling communists (Source) Eventually their power will climax and they'll probably lead a massive Crusade (but they'd call it something different) across the galaxy in an attempt to conquer everything.

Ah....no. It is stated xxx times that warp storm around the planetary system affects it's space and TIME. It was 6.000 years in our dimension, for Tau it could be 60.000 years.
And bare in mind that Humans that lived in Golden Age of Humanity had more advanced tech then Tau. And even they didn't find any means of advanced FTL then warp travel. Eldar, who are in the galaxy the longest also didn't found superior travel than warp ( webway gates are essentially gates into the warp ). Necrons are mystery since them don't travel - but teleport all across the galaxy.
And Tau may attempt one day to lead a great crusade outside their space, but Imperium have already begin reinforcing worlds around Tau borders. So first they will have problem conquering them. Second, Ultramar is close and Ultramarines and their successors are surely to join the battle. After that, it will be agreed that Tau are became a major threat and Imperium will just mass the forces while Tau will stil be recovering from they crusade. Then Imperium will attack and it will not matter what kind level of tech they have when they will face a full might of Imperium's crusade.

What the hell? The warp storm around Tau did not give it a 60,000 year head start. There's no reason to think the warp storm had any temporal effect at all.

Not again

Warpstorms can affect time but we have no evidence showing it slowed down time or sped up time. It could give turn 6,000 years into 60,000 years but it could equaly turn 6,000 years into 6 days. It is just as likely the warpstorm gave them less time rather than more.

4M2A wrote:
Warpstorms can affect time but we have no evidence showing it slowed down time or sped up time. It could give turn 6,000 years into 60,000 years but it could equaly turn 6,000 years into 6 days. It is just as likely the warpstorm gave them less time rather than more.

Agreed.

All we know for certain is that from the Imperium's perspective, the Tau homeworld was blocked off by a warp storm for 6,000 years, and when the storm ended the Tau Empire suddenly appeared.

I have to agree with ChrisWWII. The empire is besieged in too many fronts to launch huge wars of conquest. Besides, whatever was holding the empire together when the Emperor was alive... er... "not enthroned", is gone now. Just remember how the Macharian Crusades ended with little territorial gain, the Imperium quickly losing grasp of most of these newly-conquered worlds.

Most of you have pointed that there would be little to gain in a new war of conquest. I disagree. Orks, Necrons, Chaos warbands may be diffuse threats, and there might be no point in attacking foes like the Eldar, the DE or the Tyrannids. But renegades, separatists and Chaos cults have claimed a huge number of imperial worlds, maybe not as much as the Great Crusade had to conquer, but still enough to speak of a large number of human polities independent of the Imperium. Also, there are other Xenos empires like the Worldweave of the Noisome Reek or the Ulumèathic League, the Tau just being the most prominent of them, and large ork-held territories like Octarion and Charadon. Not to mention that the Galaxy is not completely explored.

So, there's still room for a new campaign (and to expand the fluff in whatever direction GW wishes, that is )

ChrisWWII wrote:

4M2A wrote:
Warpstorms can affect time but we have no evidence showing it slowed down time or sped up time. It could give turn 6,000 years into 60,000 years but it could equaly turn 6,000 years into 6 days. It is just as likely the warpstorm gave them less time rather than more.

Agreed.

All we know for certain is that from the Imperium's perspective, the Tau homeworld was blocked off by a warp storm for 6,000 years, and when the storm ended the Tau Empire suddenly appeared.

Incorrect.
The Tau homeworld was blocked off by a Warp Storm for 6,000 years...yes.
When the Warp Storm appeared, the Tau were at caveman levels. They roamed the countryside clubbing each other with rocks and sticks. They were a single species at that point in time.

When the Warp Storm disappeared, they had mastered anti-grav, spaceflight, kinetic kill weapons, plasma containment technology, and the evolutionary differences in the various Castes had appeared. The only thing that didn't happen immediately after the storm ended was the inclusion of the various Xeno auxiliaries.

That doesn't change the fact that we have no idea what happened to the Tau between their initial discovery and the end of the warp storms. We don't have any proof that time ran differently for the Tau. The warpstorm could have randomly effected the flow of time but it could have slowed it down, sped it up or had no effect- we have no proof either way.

4M2A wrote:That doesn't change the fact that we have no idea what happened to the Tau between their initial discovery and the end of the warp storms. We don't have any proof that time ran differently for the Tau. The warpstorm could have randomly effected the flow of time but it could have slowed it down, sped it up or had no effect- we have no proof either way.

Going from "caveman" to "interstellar voyagers with railguns, plasma weaponry, and neural interfacing suits" is a pretty good indicator that much more than 6000 years went by.

And temporal effects are pretty much always associated with Warp Storms.

For us it is an indication but the Tau have also been shown to advance much faster than humans. Look at the rate of progress since they have been open to the galaxy, it is still much faster than anyone else. Comparing the Tau's rate of advance to other species and using this as evidence for something being wrong doesn't work. If it was humans advancing that fast then yes it would suggest something affected them but we have no reason to suggest Tau can't adance that fast.

They are more open to ideas than we are, work as a united species rather than fighting each other and while inside the warpstorm were protected from outside interference.

Look at the periods when we have been advancing the quickest. If you were to unite all of humanity towards one goal and keep this high level of advancement for 6000 years we would be at that sort of level.

Warpstorms are associated with time changing but this is random. It could make the time shorter as well as longer.

4M2A wrote:For us it is an indication but the Tau have also been shown to advance much faster than humans. Look at the rate of progress since they have been open to the galaxy, it is still much faster than anyone else. Comparing the Tau's rate of advance to other species and using this as evidence for something being wrong doesn't work. If it was humans advancing that fast then yes it would suggest something affected them but we have no reason to suggest Tau can't adance that fast.

Their rate of progress "since they have been open to the galaxy" is incredibly stunted.

For example: they do not have new pulse weaponry or anything of that nature. It took them from the time they "appeared" to very recently to miniaturize railgun technology. And even then, they're having issues like feedback from the gun killing the operator.

Ion Cannon technology wasn't theirs. They received it from the Demiurg.

So all in all:
You've got a few new Battle Suits here and there, new variations on the Stealth Suits, and a miniaturized railgun.

Brother Coa wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
You do realize Luxembourg was a founding member of the modern day EU. Which originated from the EEC and means a small and tiny nation, commands the support of some of the most powerful nations on Earth. Not only that, but they are also backed by a super economy rivaling the U.S. and China lol

EU have a army?
And they are allies with China?
And they are powerful nations?

Beff you have to see doctor to check your DNA. I grantee it will not be Human, it will be Tau ( and I am not joking ).

/back to OP...


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Kilkrazy wrote:If they can't get Chaos off Cadia I don't see how they can launch a crusade.

I am sorry Kill but Chaos lost Battle for Cadia, the forces that left on planet soil are slowly being killed By Cadian PDF and newly raised Regiments. And it is only the matter of time before they lost last hold on the planet.


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Kanluwen wrote:
They purposely did it that way. Right now Cadia is overrun, but there's holdout pockets of the Cadian Shock still fighting and being reinforced by the Navy's guns whenever possible.

What?

Check codex, only 60% of the planet was under Chaos control, and that was before Cadians stated to push them back.
Now that percentage is lower every single day...

Regarding the Black Crusade.

As per the 13.Black Crusade Sourcebook the Imperial Fleet is mauled ( although still at an advantage compared to the Chaos fleet ) and warpstorms engulf the Cadian sector, making both communication and
warptravel difficult at best. Abaddon's Blackstone fortress ( driven off largely thanks to a Necron fleet which happened to arrive at the right time and the combined sacrifice of the Eldar and the Imperial fleet under Quarren ) as well as the Planetkiller are still operational. Cadia itself is largely under Chaos control and even the Cadian highcommand ( or better the high ranking officer who "wrote" the book ) cannot predict if and
when the 13. Black Crusade can be contained. So for now the Cadian Gate has been broken ( but not completely smashed ) and it is possible that the forces of chaos spread into the wider Imperium.

The Imperium itself, while still largely intact, is at siege. With perhaps a thousand or more worlds seceeding and rebelling within a single year ( The Night of a Thousand Rebellions, 5.edt. rulebook p. 129), thousands falling to daemonic incursions just a few years before ( The Great Awakening, brb p. 129), Leviathan as well as several smaller hivefleets ( sure, they might "only" devastate a few hundred worlds atm, but for the affected sectors such losses are catastrophic and for the Imperium itself the lost worlds are ultimately irreplacable ) setting the eastern fringe ablaze as well as countless minor threads like Gazkul endangering strategicaly important Armageddon as well as it's surounding worlds, the first Necrons awakening from their long slumber, the destruction of the Bakka shipyards by Dark Eldar and countless other fronts which all have to be suported ( Achilus crusade for example ) i pretty much doubt that anyone knows where the ressources for a new Great Crusade would come from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:

4M2A wrote:For us it is an indication but the Tau have also been shown to advance much faster than humans. Look at the rate of progress since they have been open to the galaxy, it is still much faster than anyone else. Comparing the Tau's rate of advance to other species and using this as evidence for something being wrong doesn't work. If it was humans advancing that fast then yes it would suggest something affected them but we have no reason to suggest Tau can't adance that fast.

Their rate of progress "since they have been open to the galaxy" is incredibly stunted.

For example: they do not have new pulse weaponry or anything of that nature. It took them from the time they "appeared" to very recently to miniaturize railgun technology. And even then, they're having issues like feedback from the gun killing the operator.

Ion Cannon technology wasn't theirs. They received it from the Demiurg.

So all in all:
You've got a few new Battle Suits here and there, new variations on the Stealth Suits, and a miniaturized railgun.

And an entirely new line of warships within a few decades.

Kan- Since the warpstorms have cleared their focus has been on advancing geographically. They have spread very far in such a short period of time. Compared to the size of their empire they have done a considerable of fighting. While the warpstorms surrounded them they were free to focus on moving forward. Now they have to constantly fight off attackers.

4M2A wrote:Kan- Since the warpstorms have cleared their focus has been on advancing geographically. They have spread very far in such a short period of time. Compared to the size of their empire they have done a considerable of fighting. While the warpstorms surrounded them they were free to focus on moving forward. Now they have to constantly fight off attackers.

The funny thing is about the Tau is that we don't actually know their side of the story about this, how much time they say that they have been on their planet before they started colonization. We know only from Imperial perspective that they have been 6.000 years locked in Warp storm, but we actually don't know how long was actual Tau advancement.
And we all know the effects of the warp storm and time ( like Imperial ships arriving at their destination hundred of years later, ort that one incident with new Imperium ship that traveled back in time, or Chaos Space Marines still unchanged after 10.000 years ).

And from who are Tau defending? Beside some Ork and Dark Eldar skirmish they are in peace. They are the ones who constantly attack Imperial planets.

I don't see what that has to do with crusades.

The Cadian situation is the most important single strategic juncture facing the Imperium.

If the IoM can't put together the forces needed to retake the area quickly, it certainly hasn't got the wherewithal to mount a crusade.

The Cadian situation is the most important single strategic juncture facing the Imperium.

If the IoM can't put together the forces needed to retake the area quickly, it certainly hasn't got the wherewithal to mount a crusade.

Very true. I think the state of cadia really shows how bad the IoM situation really is. While it does have a very large number of CSM on it, the fact that they are unable to take back 1 planet (especially when they already have control of the space around it) shows how thin the IoM forces are stretched.

The funny thing is about the Tau is that we don't actually know their side of the story about this, how much time they say that they have been on their planet before they started colonization. We know only from Imperial perspective that they have been 6.000 years locked in Warp storm, but we actually don't know how long was actual Tau advancement.
And we all know the effects of the warp storm and time ( like Imperial ships arriving at their destination hundred of years later, ort that one incident with new Imperium ship that traveled back in time, or Chaos Space Marines still unchanged after 10.000 years ).

And from who are Tau defending? Beside some Ork and Dark Eldar skirmish they are in peace. They are the ones who constantly attack Imperial planets.

Indeed. I don't disagree that there is a possibility they had longer than 6000 years I just don't think there is any proof. Without seeing it from the Tau's perspective we can't really know - getting some fluff from the Tau PoV is something i'm really hoping for in their next codex. Currently almost everything we know about them is from the imperial's viewpoint.

While ther Tau suffer the same attacks a the IoM the relative scale is very different. A ork waaagh is a nuisance for the IoM, however it would be a serious threat for the Tau. Due to their size they would be unable to provide resources for a war and still haev enough to continue research at full capacity.

Kilkrazy wrote:I don't see what that has to do with crusades.

The Cadian situation is the most important single strategic juncture facing the Imperium.

If the IoM can't put together the forces needed to retake the area quickly, it certainly hasn't got the wherewithal to mount a crusade.

Who says they can't put together the forces needed to retake the area quickly?

Reinforcements were prevented from reacting simply because of the warp storms around.


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Also: there was very little "CSM" presence on Cadia. It was just a ridiculously huge tide of mutants, daemons, and traitors.

There were CSM involved, but it wasn't a case of every Kasrkin was countered by a CSM.

Warp storms or not I really wouldnt consider the Tau's technology advancement all that great. Eldar have far better weapons and tech not to mention the eons of training in psychic ability. Also the Necrons beat back entire armies with what could be considered their equivelent of farming equipment. Even with their advancement abilities I honestly just see them becoming stagnant after trying to push out with more experienced races in their way.

Also no theres too much beauracracy and not enough resources for the imperium to mount a new great crusade just yet.

Who started this dumb theory? T'au was cut off for several years but so what? It's cut off not IN the warp. Earth was also cut off for thousands of years with no effect. It happens all the time. These planets were not sucked into the time altering warp, their sea lanes became stormy.

The T'au's advancement is not amazing. Overall, it's a little bit slower than humanity. We've gone from cavemen to space flight in 3,000 years. Another 3,000 and we're beyond t'au level of technology. Furthermore this was all done without the one world goverment that Tau enjoy that lets them pool their entire species resources together.

Kilkrazy wrote:
The Cadian situation is the most important single strategic juncture facing the Imperium.

If the IoM can't put together the forces needed to retake the area quickly, it certainly hasn't got the wherewithal to mount a crusade.

The reason they can't retake the planet is because time stooped ( 13'th Black Crusade finished in year 41.000 ). They are assembling troops and sending them, but only when GW decide that timeline continue will the Cadia be free from Chaos scum!!!

And what Kan already said, warp storm makes it difficult to send help ( see what happened to Tau at Kaurava ). So it will take them some time, but Cadia will be again in Imperial hands.

Probably not. Or at least never at the levels of the last crusade. The general theme of the IoM is that they are slowly unraveling. Slowly unlearning how to build things, slowly losing planets that they can't recover, slowly losing the emperor with no way to save him. The IoM just doesn't have the power they use to have.

By the same token the IoM lacks the capacity to mount a crusade.

Wait what?

A new line of Fleet Craft, a 2nd Generation of Battle Suits? Field testing Rail rifles for mass issue? 2 new generations of stealth suits? New Shield Gens that mix stealth technology and shield technology? Am i missing something here?

These dudes are outpacing every race at once without the corny magic powers the emo Eldar use or the Crazy god freaks of the goth Imperials, basically... Atheist Geeks in space > all when it comes to science! Whodathunkit?!

All the Tau stuff is completely off topic.

Please start a new thread if you want to discuss the pace of technology advance in 40K.

Solar Macharius claimed the entire Calixis sector and, if memory serves, two neighboring sectors (Ixanaid and... I forget the other) during his crusade. He utterly exterminated a half a dozen xeno species as well as a technologically-superior Human empire, to the point that no relic of their kind exist any more.

Currently, the Imperium maintains a *massive* Crusade to reclaim the lost Jericho Reach (formerly the Jericho Sector), though they're fighting the Tau, the Tyranid and the Archenemy on three fronts, so things are not exactly going well.

The Sabbat Worlds Crusade was likewise a major undertaking, and though its victory was mixed, the manifestation of the Living Saint has done more for Imperial morale in the sector than any victory could have. It is a sign of the Emperor's might, and it bolsters the faith of those who may have found it flagging.

There will never be another "Great Crusade", but there are massive military undertakings called "Crusades" all the time.