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With the Imperium as it stands now is it possible for them to undertake a new Great Crusade? Let me outline some prerequistes so we're on the same page:

Assume that the Space Marines form a united front, at least from the First Founding Chapters, and will assist the Imperium in every way.

Assume that the High Lords of Terra are also united in this goal and there will be little political backstabbing or interference.

Assume the Mechanicum also becomes possessed by this religious fervor and will bend all their efforts to this cause.

Assume the beaurocratic nightmare that is the Imperium remains unchanged, just the leadership as it is would be united to one goal/cause.

Here are the three goals that they can focus on and let us know which one you think is most likely to have success or on the contrary why the Imperium would fail in any attempt.


Possible Crusade Goals

Eye of Terror - Spurred on by the threat of the 13th Black Crusade the Imperium decides to go all out against the Eye of Terror and finally close it off forever or at least inflict such losses that the Chaos SM and their masters will likely not be a threat for millenia to come.

Tyranid Extermination - Possessed by fervent religious zeal the Imperium decides that the currently identified Hive Fleets must be met with force and exterminated to the last gaunt. With that in mind, Extermination fleets are formed to go and hunt down Hive Fleets and destroy them utterly.

Kill the Xenos - to mirror the accomplishments of the God Emperor the High Lords decide that the only way for the Imperium to remain safe is to expand out and take whatever worlds remain in xenos hands and bring them under man's dominion, for this goal the primary objectives are elimination of the Tau and all known Craftworlds.


In essence I am wondering what the full might of the Imperium can accompolish if it ever gets focused anywhere and is it even possible for the huge sprawling behemoth to ever get focussed as it was durung the Great Crusade when it was smaller and led by one man. My personal opinion is that the only one of these that has a decent shot at being accomplished is option 3 - Burn the Xenos. The Tau are relatively small in comparison to a fully mobilized Imperium and the same for the Craftworlds, small tough nuts to crack but I imagine a kill team comprised of several SM Chapters and Imperial Guard backed up by significant Imperial Fleet assets could bring down a Craftworld. It wouldn't be pretty but still doable.

No.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's the short answer. The long version would have a lot to do with abandoning already precariously defended fronts and leaving the high risk edges near undefended. There's also the lack of any central figure(s) to lead them, lack of resources, lack of appropriate forces, and the fact that there would be no point in conquering a huge number of worlds when The Imperium, as in the realm of man, already exists, and the fact that it would be a waste of resources to destroy a potential ally in the future, read : Eldar. Conquering the Eye of Terror would destroy the Imperium.

There's the point though that there are billions of guard regiments, according to Cruddance, author of the IG codex, which points out the fact that there could be thousands or potentially millions of regiments per planet. Yeah, GW often contradicts itself.

With those conditions, I think a considerable amount of progress could be made, but not on the scale of the previous one. The Great Crusade was accomplished by Legions and Legions of Space Marines commanded by a Demi-God, who is in turn led by the Emperor. This new crusade would lag behind in the leadership category.

They could launch a Crusade but as already mentioned it would pale in comparison. Legions of Space Marines were at the front lead by Primarchs and supported by the Emperor. Sciences were not restrained by dogma and the Imperium was at full stregnth (20 Legions supported by the vast amounts of Guardsmen and Navy)

In present day 41st, the Blood Angels are spread thin and going extinct, leading a number of defensive operations and small scale reclamation efforts. Most other chapters excluding in many ways the BT, are doing similar opertaions in different capacities. Chapters as they are now mostly break stalemates and help defend under the most dire of circumstances.

Without the 20 Legions supported by Primarchs and the Emperor himself, A Great Crusade would most likely cause a collapse of several vital points that would if anything end up with the Imperium falling apart.

They can, but barely.

That would only be possible if:

1) Primarchs return, or
2) All original legion chapters ( Space Wolves, Imperial Fist, Ultramarines, Blood Angels, Raven Guard, Dark Angels, Salamanders, White Scars and Iron Hands ) all gaiter on one place and declare a new crusade.

But then the new problem arise, like iproxtaco said - all this chapters are defending crushal points in Imperium space. But, since Guard have more them enough Regiments to replace them, I would say that kind of Crusade woudl be possible. In the end, they would not go alone, everywhere they go, people would join. Mechanicus, Inquisition and other chapters would send help.

Problem is where go to the crusade? Eye of Terror is out of the question because the warp effect entire crusade force woudl be lost. Tyranids are already beaten twice, and they will be third time to. The Imperium is seeing Eldar as a potential ally, Tau to.

The only territory I see there could be a crusade is Segmentum Ultima, because it is around 80% unexplored, with who knows how much Human colonies and Empires lost. But that could also be done with Guard Regiments.

There are crusades even today in the Imperium. They are lead by Sisters of Battle. And Black Tempars are leading at least 3 Crusades at the time all across the galaxy. And why do Imperium need another Great Crusade when 90% of the galaxy is Imperium territory?

Brother Coa

"Tau are an empire in the same sense that Luxembourg is a great and powerful nation. " -Your sig

I read this in your sig and love it!

You do realize Luxembourg was a founding member of the modern day EU. Which originated from the EEC and means a small and tiny nation, commands the support of some of the most powerful nations on Earth. Not only that, but they are also backed by a super economy rivaling the U.S. and China lol

I guess I'm trying to say I support that sig!

/back on topic


What would happen if the Great Crusade Part 2 happened and a Nid invasion rolled up? This is a large reason why an invasion of that scale would never happen unless the Big E came back to life.

The imperium controls most of the planets they are capable of keeping. The xeno and chaos bases are often in places where they just can't go. They could try and wipe them out but they would just retreat away from imperial space until the imperium can't follow. The astronomicon only reaches so far. Lord Macharius tried to lead a crusade beyond the reaches of the imperium and even the best leader since the Horus Heresy couldn't persuade his soldiers to leave the light of the astronomicon. The space marines alone wouldn't be enough. They aren't meant to fight as armies- their job is too support the rest of the imperial forces. They would suffer huge casulties if they tried to take on any of the imperiums enemies alone.

1. You can't invade the eye of terror. No non chaos forces will last long inside. The planets themselves will fight you, there will be a continues flow of daemons and warp travel is impossible. There is a very high chance the troops that enter will be warp and turn to chaos. Good luck getting IG regiments to enter the EoT. Any human who knows what is inside will kill himself before going inside.

2. Many of the Hive fleets are already destroyed. As soon as the imperium has the resources available they will destroy the tyranids. So far they aren't a real threat, as there just aren't enough of them.

3. They could probably wipe out the Craftworld eldar but they would open themselves up to an attack from others if they did. If they did openly attack the CW eldar they would also be declaring war on the Dark eldar. So far the imperium has only seen DE raiding parties (and even these can destroy worlds), a full war would be very painful for the IoM. They would be completely unable to attack back and the DE can attack almost any planet without warning.

The Orks are too numerous to destory. There is just no point trying.

The Imperium could fight it's way to Tau quite easil but again this would require reducing it's defenses. The IoM is stretched thinly just using it's force to defend. The damage done by Orks while the defending forces are away would be worse than the damage done by the tau. There is no gaurantee this would really help. Unlike the IoM the tau aren't bound by the astronomicon. They could just flee into unexplored space where the IoM can't follow.

I would have to say that a new crusade would be out of the question. It seems now the Imperium is struggling to hold onto what they already have, from tau colonization and demon infestations and so on.

They have crusades all the time. It'll never be as big as The Great Crusade which conquered a million worlds but that's because there was a million worlds up for grabs back then. If they launch a crusade that captures 200 worlds it's a major accomplishment but it'll always pale in comparision to the original.

If they can't get Chaos off Cadia I don't see how they can launch a crusade.

The Imperium does launch crusades, some of them very large and successful, like the Macharian Crusade.

Others less so, like the Sabbat World Crusade.

A Great Crusade, would probably be beyond the ability of anyone to launch even a primarch. It would take a very large amount of impetus to marshal and launch a crusade of that scale, and there aren't that many viable targets large enough to warrant that large of a crusade.

The only place I could think of would be ork held worlds, but launching a crusade there might be counter productive, setting off an equally powerfully Waaaaagh.

Kilkrazy wrote:If they can't get Chaos off Cadia I don't see how they can launch a crusade.

They will. In 41,000....


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Thatguyoverthere wrote:The Imperium does launch crusades, some of them very large and successful, like the Macharian Crusade.

Others less so, like the Sabbat World Crusade.

A Great Crusade, would probably be beyond the ability of anyone to launch even a primarch. It would take a very large amount of impetus to marshal and launch a crusade of that scale, and there aren't that many viable targets large enough to warrant that large of a crusade.

The only place I could think of would be ork held worlds, but launching a crusade there might be counter productive, setting off an equally powerfully Waaaaagh.

Yeah, they conquered 1,000 worlds in 7 years. Not too shaby imo.

Kilkrazy wrote:If they can't get Chaos off Cadia I don't see how they can launch a crusade.

We don't actually know if they can't get Chaos off Cadia.

They purposely did it that way. Right now Cadia is overrun, but there's holdout pockets of the Cadian Shock still fighting and being reinforced by the Navy's guns whenever possible.

The Imperium is past it's days of glory. It's on the defensive now, struggling to fight off the Tyranids, Necrons and Chaos Space Marines. It might launch one or two small crusades to reclaim a few old planets but it'll never launch something like the Great Crusade.

The Tau on the other hand might start to in a few thousand years.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If they can't get Chaos off Cadia I don't see how they can launch a crusade.

We don't actually know if they can't get Chaos off Cadia.

They purposely did it that way. Right now Cadia is overrun, but there's holdout pockets of the Cadian Shock still fighting and being reinforced by the Navy's guns whenever possible.

When it happens we'll hear about it in White Dwarf a few months afterwards.

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If they can't get Chaos off Cadia I don't see how they can launch a crusade.

We don't actually know if they can't get Chaos off Cadia.

They purposely did it that way. Right now Cadia is overrun, but there's holdout pockets of the Cadian Shock still fighting and being reinforced by the Navy's guns whenever possible.

Last I checked Chaos had a majority control of Cadia, but that they lost the war in space and can't get any reinforcements. as its been said...

"The fighters are our salvation, but the bombers alone provide the means of victory.”

LoneLictor wrote:The Imperium is past it's days of glory. It's on the defensive now, struggling to fight off the Tyranids, Necrons and Chaos Space Marines. It might launch one or two small crusades to reclaim a few old planets but it'll never launch something like the Great Crusade.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

First off: Any force in the 40k canon would be "struggling to fight off the Tyranids".
Secondly: Necrons, as a threat, are sort of nonexistent. They don't launch very many attacks, and mainly tend to "attack" worlds they are already present on.
Third: Chaos Space Marines have very limited influence. They're a threat, but an ideological one for the most part--much like the Tau. They're effectively 'stuck' in certain points but have sympathizers spread out beyond their areas.

Fourth: Crusades aren't sent "to reclaim a few old planets".
They reclaim entire sectors. They're also not something that actually have a real definition of forces involved. Something as small as a fleet of six transport carriers loaded with a half dozen Guard Regiments can be called a Crusade.

The Tau on the other hand might start to in a few thousand years.

Even more wrong. The Tau are effectively never going to be launching "Crusades".

They'll launch Expansions every so often, but even then they only do it when no one else is seemingly looking.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
You do realize Luxembourg was a founding member of the modern day EU. Which originated from the EEC and means a small and tiny nation, commands the support of some of the most powerful nations on Earth. Not only that, but they are also backed by a super economy rivaling the U.S. and China lol

EU have a army?
And they are allies with China?
And they are powerful nations?

Beff you have to see doctor to check your DNA. I grantee it will not be Human, it will be Tau ( and I am not joking ).

/back to OP...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kilkrazy wrote:If they can't get Chaos off Cadia I don't see how they can launch a crusade.

I am sorry Kill but Chaos lost Battle for Cadia, the forces that left on planet soil are slowly being killed By Cadian PDF and newly raised Regiments. And it is only the matter of time before they lost last hold on the planet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote:
They purposely did it that way. Right now Cadia is overrun, but there's holdout pockets of the Cadian Shock still fighting and being reinforced by the Navy's guns whenever possible.

What?

Check codex, only 60% of the planet was under Chaos control, and that was before Cadians stated to push them back.
Now that percentage is lower every single day...

EU have a army?
And they are allies with China?
And they are powerful nations?

Beff you have to see doctor to check your DNA. I grantee it will not be Human, it will be Tau ( and I am not joking ).

/back to OP...



I won't derail past what I am about to say but...
1. Yes (27 of them)
2. Yes (Trading Partners)
3. Yes (of the 27 members, 14 are considered militantly powerful, with the EU's allies being a number of nations which include America and Canada)

Ironically, Luxembourg is a perfect example of what the Tau are, a small, densely populated, prosperous entity that sought to unite more to its Greater Good! Bravo Coa!

/topic

The Imperium doesn't have the leadership to launch a "Great Anything"

Without revised leadership structuring, they will remain stagnant and with revised leadership attempts they would likely fall into civil war. Basically, they need the Emperor or a replacement.

Brother Coa wrote:

The only territory I see there could be a crusade is Segmentum Ultima, because it is around 80% unexplored......

And why do Imperium need another Great Crusade when 90% of the galaxy is Imperium territory?

So the Imperium has territory it hasn't explored?

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I won't derail past what I am about to say but...
1. Yes (27 of them)
2. Yes (Trading Partners)
3. Yes (of the 27 members, 14 are considered militantly powerful, with the EU's allies being a number of nations which include America and Canada)

Ironically, Luxembourg is a perfect example of what the Tau are, a small, densely populated, prosperous entity that sought to unite more to its Greater Good! Bravo Coa!

Oh God Emperor...

1. No. Their armed forces are U.S. army and NATO forces ( France, Brits and German army, but only parts ).
2. Yes and no. They are trading partners, but now EU are looking into stop importing things from China because China ecomony is going to be stronger than US in some few years. And Chinese good are cheaper than those of US and Eu everyone is buying them witch means lower Eu economy and lot's of unemployed people.
3. No. They all fail in terms of military power in recent history. The fact that U.S. are telling EU what to do ( or UN council at that ) is reason enough that I consider that they are not powerful at all.

No, Luxembourg is a country with 3 towns at most and they can only suggest what to do, they have no big influential power in EU council. ( if your point is true, then even we, who are members of UN council can have more power than US ). And Luxembourg are nothing like the Tau, it has no military or political power over it's allies. And it's territory is largely the same, it didn't expand at all in 60 years...

And by your logic, my building is like the Tau because we are all working toward the grater good of community, we are calling that socialism here.
Bravo Beef...


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Thaanos wrote:
So the Imperium has territory it hasn't explored?

It is stated in 5'th edition codex that nearest 2 Imperial planets are some hundred light years away, with alien hold planets between.
So yea, much of Imperium's territory is not explored at all.

Brother Coa wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:
I won't derail past what I am about to say but...
1. Yes (27 of them)
2. Yes (Trading Partners)
3. Yes (of the 27 members, 14 are considered militantly powerful, with the EU's allies being a number of nations which include America and Canada)

Ironically, Luxembourg is a perfect example of what the Tau are, a small, densely populated, prosperous entity that sought to unite more to its Greater Good! Bravo Coa!

Oh God Emperor...

1. No. Their armed forces are U.S. army and NATO forces ( France, Brits and German army, but only parts ).
2. Yes and no. They are trading partners, but now EU are looking into stop importing things from China because China ecomony is going to be stronger than US in some few years. And Chinese good are cheaper than those of US and Eu everyone is buying them witch means lower Eu economy and lot's of unemployed people.
3. No. They all fail in terms of military power in recent history. The fact that U.S. are telling EU what to do ( or UN council at that ) is reason enough that I consider that they are not powerful at all.

No, Luxembourg is a country with 3 towns at most and they can only suggest what to do, they have no big influential power in EU council. ( if your point is true, then even we, who are members of UN council can have more power than US ). And Luxembourg are nothing like the Tau, it has no military or political power over it's allies. And it's territory is largely the same, it didn't expand at all in 60 years...

And by your logic, my building is like the Tau because we are all working toward the grater good of community, we are calling that socialism here.
Bravo Beef...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Thaanos wrote:
So the Imperium has territory it hasn't explored?

It is stated in 5'th edition codex that nearest 2 Imperial planets are some hundred light years away, with alien hold planets between.
So yea, much of Imperium's territory is not explored at all.

I'm going to honor my promise not to derail further Coa, we can debate this epic discussion thru PMs!

_

Imperium has too many threats to launch any significant attacks on par with the GCs of old.

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If they can't get Chaos off Cadia I don't see how they can launch a crusade.

I am sorry Kill but Chaos lost Battle for Cadia, the forces that left on planet soil are slowly being killed By Cadian PDF and newly raised Regiments. And it is only the matter of time before they lost last hold on the planet.

Cadia doesn't have a PDF. They've got the "Interior Guard", which is Cadian Regiments permanently stationed on Cadia.

Cadia also isn't "newly raising Regiments" right now. They've put out a call, however, for all Cadian Regiments fighting in the galaxy to start up recruiting drives and train their fellow Guardsmen as much as they can for a triumphant return.

Kanluwen wrote:
They purposely did it that way. Right now Cadia is overrun, but there's holdout pockets of the Cadian Shock still fighting and being reinforced by the Navy's guns whenever possible.

What?

Check codex, only 60% of the planet was under Chaos control, and that was before Cadians stated to push them back.

Please cite a page number for the 60% of the planet under Chaos control.
Because I went through my Guard Codex and got nothing.

60% is a number I've thrown out repeatedly in regards to Cadia and the overall ground that Chaos currently controls.

Now that percentage is lower every single day...

That percentage isn't actually lowering "every single day". It's a case of the percentage is stagnating, simply because Chaos can only reinforce via Warp Rifts and that doesn't give them room for much war material coming through.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The Imperium doesn't have the leadership to launch a "Great Anything"

Without revised leadership structuring, they will remain stagnant and with revised leadership attempts they would likely fall into civil war. Basically, they need the Emperor or a replacement.

Bull. You've had plenty of "Great Anythings".

The Sabbat Worlds Crusade and the Macharian Crusade are but two examples.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:Imperium has too many threats to launch any significant attacks on par with the GCs of old.

They can wipe out the Tau if they want...
And do a little damage to Orks...
But there is really no need for that since Imperium is totally own the galaxy.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:I'm going to honor my promise not to derail further Coa, we can debate this epic discussion thru PMs!

There is nothing to debate with a traitor, I am done talking to you - forever.

Black Templars are quite the crusaders.

Kanluwen wrote:

Brother Coa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:If they can't get Chaos off Cadia I don't see how they can launch a crusade.

I am sorry Kill but Chaos lost Battle for Cadia, the forces that left on planet soil are slowly being killed By Cadian PDF and newly raised Regiments. And it is only the matter of time before they lost last hold on the planet.

Cadia doesn't have a PDF. They've got the "Interior Guard", which is Cadian Regiments permanently stationed on Cadia.

Cadia also isn't "newly raising Regiments" right now. They've put out a call, however, for all Cadian Regiments fighting in the galaxy to start up recruiting drives and train their fellow Guardsmen as much as they can for a triumphant return.

Kanluwen wrote:
They purposely did it that way. Right now Cadia is overrun, but there's holdout pockets of the Cadian Shock still fighting and being reinforced by the Navy's guns whenever possible.

What?

Check codex, only 60% of the planet was under Chaos control, and that was before Cadians stated to push them back.

Please cite a page number for the 60% of the planet under Chaos control.
Because I went through my Guard Codex and got nothing.

60% is a number I've thrown out repeatedly in regards to Cadia and the overall ground that Chaos currently controls.

Now that percentage is lower every single day...

That percentage isn't actually lowering "every single day". It's a case of the percentage is stagnating, simply because Chaos can only reinforce via Warp Rifts and that doesn't give them room for much war material coming through.

Of course, forgive me I forgot about that.
Can't remember where I read 60%, dough that number stayed in my head. Probably on Lexicanum, but I can't find anything now...
And when i said "that percentage is lower every single day" I mean that every day Cadians push them back little by little. Chaos forces have no reinforcements and they are doomed to slow extermination by Imperials.

You didn't read it anywhere other than here.

It is a number I made up, for argument's sake, in a thread about how much of Cadia's landmass is under Chaos control.

Kanluwen wrote:You didn't read it anywhere other than here.

It is a number I made up, for argument's sake, in a thread about how much of Cadia's landmass is under Chaos control.

You......are right.
I looked everywhere and I found the data only here.
Still, all people that I talked with agreed that around 60% of the planet is in Chaos hands, for now.
So basically, your statement was in some point true...

Kanluwen wrote:

LoneLictor wrote:The Imperium is past it's days of glory. It's on the defensive now, struggling to fight off the Tyranids, Necrons and Chaos Space Marines. It might launch one or two small crusades to reclaim a few old planets but it'll never launch something like the Great Crusade.

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

First off: Any force in the 40k canon would be "struggling to fight off the Tyranids".
Secondly: Necrons, as a threat, are sort of nonexistent. They don't launch very many attacks, and mainly tend to "attack" worlds they are already present on.
Third: Chaos Space Marines have very limited influence. They're a threat, but an ideological one for the most part--much like the Tau. They're effectively 'stuck' in certain points but have sympathizers spread out beyond their areas.

Fourth: Crusades aren't sent "to reclaim a few old planets".
They reclaim entire sectors. They're also not something that actually have a real definition of forces involved. Something as small as a fleet of six transport carriers loaded with a half dozen Guard Regiments can be called a Crusade.

First: Yes, but Tyranids are targeting the Imperium the most. The major attacks on the Imperium along outnumber all of the attacks they've launched on other races combined. (Source)
Second: I'll admit that's true. Necrons aren't that big of a threat compared to other factions, but they're still a threat.
Third: The Alpha Legion isn't stuck. (Source) The Red Corsairs aren't stuck. (Source) Besides, the rest of the Traitor Legions may just escape the Eye of Terror anyways with the latest Crusade. (Source)
Fourth: Citation Needed. What book (or website citing that book) says that?

Kanluwen wrote:

The Tau on the other hand might start to in a few thousand years.

Even more wrong. The Tau are effectively never going to be launching "Crusades".

They'll launch Expansions every so often, but even then they only do it when no one else is seemingly looking.

Look at the Tau rate of advancement. After a certain point, unless something manages to stop them, they'll outclass everything. They've been around for only a few thousand years and already have better technology than humanity. In six thousand years they went from cavemen who had just discovered fire, to plasma mastering space traveling communists (Source) Eventually their power will climax and they'll probably lead a massive Crusade (but they'd call it something different) across the galaxy in an attempt to conquer everything.

Kanluwen wrote:

The Tau on the other hand might start to in a few thousand years.

Even more wrong. The Tau are effectively never going to be launching "Crusades".

They'll launch Expansions every so often, but even then they only do it when no one else is seemingly looking.

Look at the Tau rate of advancement. After a certain point, unless something manages to stop them, they'll outclass everything. They've been around for only a few thousand years and already have better technology than humanity. In six thousand years they went from cavemen who had just discovered fire, to plasma mastering space traveling communists (Source) Eventually their power will climax and they'll probably lead a massive Crusade (but they'd call it something different) across the galaxy in an attempt to conquer everything.