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The biggest problem with overloading on Autocannons is that you have no ranged S9 attacks. That means you only glance Monoliths on a and do nothing to them the rest of the time. While Necrons may be a rarity now, we know that after the new codex that'll change. Marines are the most common army and (at least around here) Land Raiders are expected. Same with Leman Russ tanks. It's easier to say you'll get to that side or rear armor than it is to actually do.

Having a few Lascannons helps keep your foe honest. He has to respect that threat even if he'd rather not.

Chibi-hawks change things too. Fly forward 24" on turn one to get the 4+ cover and also to drop your dreadnaught off on turn two. Even if you get shot down you only have a 1 in 6 chance of taking the glancing hit Dreadnaught. Two chibi-hawks carrying two dreads coupled with a land raider makes your opponent divide his fire. Now that you're in charge range, that dreadnaught close combat weapon can make short work of big beasties and vehicles.

Missile launchers are versatile. They can punch through with AP:3 or spread out to get a hoard. Granted you get more shots with the Autocannon, but it doesn't deny the armor save. One marine hit is probably one marine dead. It also doesn't require conversion.

It all depends.

aservan wrote:The biggest problem with overloading on Autocannons is that you have no ranged S9 attacks. That means you only glance Monoliths on a and do nothing to them the rest of the time. While Necrons may be a rarity now, we know that after the new codex that'll change. Marines are the most common army and (at least around here) Land Raiders are expected. Same with Leman Russ tanks. It's easier to say you'll get to that side or rear armor than it is to actually do.

Having a few Lascannons helps keep your foe honest. He has to respect that threat even if he'd rather not.

First, you shouldn't be worried about Necrons at all. If you are, you shouldn't be shooting at the Monolith, especially since you have S8 that doubles out Necrons so they can't take their WBB. As for LRs, I agree that S8 doesn't do a whole lot to them, but a single S9 doesn't do that much either, and it's not like you don't have other things in your army. Psycannons do a better job of dealing with AV14 than Lascannons do, and you can get a plethora of those in all your other slots.

Just because massed S8 isn't good against everything your opponent might put on the table doesn't mean it isn't worth taking. It's still good against anything that isn't AV14, especially in such high numbers and which such accuracy.

aservan wrote:Missile launchers are versatile. They can punch through with AP:3 or spread out to get a hoard. Granted you get more shots with the Autocannon, but it doesn't deny the armor save. One marine hit is probably one marine dead. It also doesn't require conversion.

The AC not only has more shots, they are each more accurate as well. The missile punches through marine armor, yes, but that is only a significant benefit if the target isn't in cover, which it most likely will be. The TL Autocannon has a 43.3% Chance of killing at least one marine, while the Missile Launcher outside of cover has a 55.6% Chance. If the target is in cover, then the ML chance drops to 27.8%, which is significantly worse, especially given how prevalent cover is.

I do think that if you are in a competive enviorment you do need something else that has a long reach if you do not runn them. You can not chase rhinos with 24" guns.

TehCheator wrote:First, you shouldn't be worried about Necrons at all. If you are, you shouldn't be shooting at the Monolith, especially since you have S8 that doubles out Necrons so they can't take their WBB. As for LRs, I agree that S8 doesn't do a whole lot to them, but a single S9 doesn't do that much either, and it's not like you don't have other things in your army. Psycannons do a better job of dealing with AV14 than Lascannons do, and you can get a plethora of those in all your other slots.

Necrons may be rare now, but it's a safe bet that by September they won't be. The rules on monoliths will undoubtedly change so they are an example of limited utility. SO necrons are probably a poor example.

A single S:9 might not do a whole lot on average, but it's the psychology of it that makes it valuable. It might do something like kill his stuff on turn 1. Even the coolest of foes can't help but get frustrated when he loses prized pieces early in the game. Standard tactics for many will be to get your heaviest hitters first. That lascannon armed Dread will draw fire away from other units. You can often control your opponent's behavior this way. It works even better if you mix in the lascannon with the Autocannons. Now which does he attack? If all the dreads are the same he might do something logical like attack the one that has the best position on him.

In castle design the clever architect often made arrow slits with a crossing slash. It was decorative, but it also makes the human eye focus on where the two lines meet. Enemy archers aimed for this point. If the cross piece was above an allied archers head the shot would miss more often then not. You're playing human not a computer. Even the best players make mistakes in priorities.

TehCheator wrote:Just because massed S8 isn't good against everything your opponent might put on the table doesn't mean it isn't worth taking. It's still good against anything that isn't AV14, especially in such high numbers and which such accuracy.

Of course S:8 is good. Never said it wasn't. I was trying to get across the message that too much of a good thing is a bad thing. The problem is that it's predictable. Versatility of tactics and capabilities is what wins games. Take a range of stuff that works well as a team.

TehCheator wrote:The AC not only has more shots, they are each more accurate as well. The missile punches through marine armor, yes, but that is only a significant benefit if the target isn't in cover, which it most likely will be. The TL Autocannon has a 43.3% Chance of killing at least one marine, while the Missile Launcher outside of cover has a 55.6% Chance. If the target is in cover, then the ML chance drops to 27.8%, which is significantly worse, especially given how prevalent cover is.

I think you are playing with more terrain than we are, but if the marines are always in cover you win. Count your blessings. Taking the defensive all the time will cost you the game against any competent opponent. You need to control the board to win, which means taking risks. Marching the MEQs straight at your autocannons isn't a big risk. Your opponent knows that it all comes down to his armor save. That means can pick the fastest route rather then the best cover route to you. Again it's psychology. He wants to not let you kill his stuff, while killing all your stuff. If suicide charges are obviously going to win then that's what he'll do.

aservan wrote:I think you are playing with more terrain than we are, but if the marines are always in cover you win. Count your blessings. Taking the defensive all the time will cost you the game against any competent opponent. You need to control the board to win, which means taking risks. Marching the MEQs straight at your autocannons isn't a big risk. Your opponent knows that it all comes down to his armor save. That means can pick the fastest route rather then the best cover route to you. Again it's psychology. He wants to not let you kill his stuff, while killing all your stuff. If suicide charges are obviously going to win then that's what he'll do.

It's not just about terrain, you most likely have other vehicles and GK infantry in your army that need to push forward to get within 24", that means that there is a good chance of your own models being in the way to give the opponent cover from your dreads. Also, the other army most likely has vehicles that he can use for cover. I find it highly unlikely that a dread with a missile launcher sitting in your backfield is going to get clear shots on marines all that often. And if they do, then either the opponent has gotten through all your infantry in midfield, in which case you've lost, or they're doing some suicide run to try to get to your dreads, in which case you're probably winning.

Also, while psychology has it's place in Warhammer, if you are reducing the overall effectiveness of your list in order to bring psychological tools to the table, then you will have more problems when you run into a good opponent who isn't fooled by your smoke-and-mirrors tactics.

aservan wrote:

TehCheator wrote:First, you shouldn't be worried about Necrons at all. If you are, you shouldn't be shooting at the Monolith, especially since you have S8 that doubles out Necrons so they can't take their WBB. As for LRs, I agree that S8 doesn't do a whole lot to them, but a single S9 doesn't do that much either, and it's not like you don't have other things in your army. Psycannons do a better job of dealing with AV14 than Lascannons do, and you can get a plethora of those in all your other slots.

Necrons may be rare now, but it's a safe bet that by September they won't be. The rules on monoliths will undoubtedly change so they are an example of limited utility. SO necrons are probably a poor example.

A single S:9 might not do a whole lot on average, but it's the psychology of it that makes it valuable. It might do something like kill his stuff on turn 1. Even the coolest of foes can't help but get frustrated when he loses prized pieces early in the game. Standard tactics for many will be to get your heaviest hitters first. That lascannon armed Dread will draw fire away from other units. You can often control your opponent's behavior this way. It works even better if you mix in the lascannon with the Autocannons. Now which does he attack? If all the dreads are the same he might do something logical like attack the one that has the best position on him.

Paying a point premium on the assumption that your opponent who possibly has a LR or Monolith MIGHT be psyched out by the about 5% chance that single twin-linked lascannon will destroy it on the first turn is quite possibly the worst idea I have ever heard. Anyone who looks at 3 dreadnoughts, 2 of which are psyrifle and 1 of which is LC/ML and thinks "Better focus on that LC, he might pop me one!" is really, really ignorant to just how much damage that LC can do. Sure, it might happen, but it is far less likely then those Psyrifles devastating my Warriors/Destroyers/Transports and either phasing someone out, or completely demobilizing an army except the Land Raider (which is really not something most GK worry about, considering Psycannons are a constant and have almost as good a chance per shot as a lascannon to damage, but shoot twice as much!). You seem to be the only one being outfoxed in this equation about the "value" of that lascannon.

Kirasu wrote:

Since 3rd edition dreadnoughts with DCCWs havent been effective and there is no reason to think they would be now.

Any player that uses DSing MM/HF Dreads would highly disagree with you (especially the Vulcan variety), as would any BA player, or Ork player that mixes a couple of troops-choice DeffDreads into his Kanwall (heck, even the Kans use their DCCWs).

There are plenty of places where Dreads with DCCWs can perform extremely well; it just depends on your list and playstyle. Blanketly writing off a DCCW dread because it isn't packing 2x TL ACs is just silly. Even in the GK codex, a DCCW Dread can be usefull, if the list is built to exploit it - such as carrying it with a Storm Raven.

True, psyflemen dreads are currently one of the best buys in the game; however, that doesn't automatically make all DCCW armed Dreads, in every codex (or even just the ones in the GK codex), ineffective...

Magister187 wrote:Paying a point premium on the assumption that your opponent who possibly has a LR or Monolith MIGHT be psyched out by the about 5% chance that single twin-linked lascannon will destroy it on the first turn is quite possibly the worst idea I have ever heard.

So you don't listen much? 'Cause I've heard some way worse ideas (racism, recreational drugs, the latest edition of Warhammer Fantasy, etc.). Or were you just being bombastic?

Lascannons have their place. That's all I'm getting at. They provide many benefits. The Autocannon trick is a good one, no doubt. It is not the be all end all that some seem to think. If you play opponents who never field heavy armor then more power to you. I think if you do one thing all the time your foes will quickly adapt and take all the armor they can get, or deploy via deep strike all the time, or take fast skimmers that are in your face on turn one, or take a hoard so big you can't kill it fast enough with your autocannon dreads.

As for cover from your own units: This applies no matter what weapon you're using. But it's not hard to make a line of sight with grey knights. We have so few troops on the table that there are bound to be holes in the line you can exploit.

I support whole heartedly the idea of mixing your force with long range and medium range. I don't think it's a good idea to only have one kind of long range. Grey knights win by mixing their tactics up. Having some versatility of weapons can't hurt you.

aservan wrote:

Magister187 wrote:Paying a point premium on the assumption that your opponent who possibly has a LR or Monolith MIGHT be psyched out by the about 5% chance that single twin-linked lascannon will destroy it on the first turn is quite possibly the worst idea I have ever heard.

So you don't listen much? 'Cause I've heard some way worse ideas (racism, recreational drugs, the latest edition of Warhammer Fantasy, etc.). Or were you just being bombastic?

Lascannons have their place. That's all I'm getting at. They provide many benefits. The Autocannon trick is a good one, no doubt. It is not the be all end all that some seem to think. If you play opponents who never field heavy armor then more power to you. I think if you do one thing all the time your foes will quickly adapt and take all the armor they can get, or deploy via deep strike all the time, or take fast skimmers that are in your face on turn one, or take a hoard so big you can't kill it fast enough with your autocannon dreads.

As for cover from your own units: This applies no matter what weapon you're using. But it's not hard to make a line of sight with grey knights. We have so few troops on the table that there are bound to be holes in the line you can exploit.

I support whole heartedly the idea of mixing your force with long range and medium range. I don't think it's a good idea to only have one kind of long range. Grey knights win by mixing their tactics up. Having some versatility of weapons can't hurt you.

No, I was using hyperbole to illustrate how ridiculous your reasoning for using lascannons on GK Dreadnoughts is. Despite your assertion, they are no longer useful against heavy armor. They have been supplanted by other weapons that not only do heavy armor as well or better, but also often provide additional benefits or come at a reduced price compared to the TL-Lascannon on say a Dread or Razorback. You are far better off fielding additional Psycannons and utilizing those and melee attacks via Daemonhammers to handle heavier armor, as you can get a far more economical and multifunctional loadout in place of that Lascannon on that Dread. Further, if you are beset often in your local metagame with heavy armour, you are much better off adapting to including melta weaponry which is substantially better at dealing with it (monoliths aside).
While you are perfectly welcome to your opinion on fielding Lascannons, it is absurd to think they give you some kind of psychological edge. No one is afraid of lascannons anymore, and if they are you are probably going to out think them in game anyhow if they can't do simple cost/benefit analysis and see that a single lascannon has about the same chance of destroying an AV14 vehicle as a single bolter has of wounding their Dreadknight, less if your AV has cover.

Yeah, but GK can't get melta without henchman, and not evryone likes running corteaz.

Psycannons work just fine for popping things.

I find a "psyfleman" dread works just great, but only the one. Psycannon assaulty dreads have a lot of front line utility, and have the advantage that they'll be giving reinforced aegis to your front line.

Sir_Prometheus wrote:Psycannons work just fine for popping things.

I find a "psyfleman" dread works just great, but only the one. Psycannon assaulty dreads have a lot of front line utility, and have the advantage that they'll be giving reinforced aegis to your front line.

Have you actually bothered to look into the math?

You might find that "just fine" is, you know, like, not. Not compared to psyautocannons. Not even a little bit.