Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Do you think 2 x T/L Autocannons with psy-bolt ammo are a must in GK army?


Have any of you tried single T/L Autocannons + Doomfist/Stormbolter, or Assault Cannon + Doomfist/Stormbolter (all with psy-bolt ammo)? How did they perform in battle?


If I want to field 5/6 Dreads in my GK army, which combo should I use? Stick to the standard 2 x T/L Autocannons, or should I mix them a bit?


Your thoughts, opinions & experience are greatly appreciated.

MarshallDin wrote:Do you think 2 x T/L Autocannons with psy-bolt ammo are a must in GK army?

Yes

MarshallDin wrote:Have any of you tried single T/L Autocannons + Doomfist/Stormbolter, or Assault Cannon + Doomfist/Stormbolter (all with psy-bolt ammo)?

No

MarshallDin wrote:How did they perform in battle?

Poorly

MarshallDin wrote:If I want to field 5/6 Dreads in my GK army, which combo should I use? Stick to the standard 2 x T/L Autocannons, or should I mix them a bit?

Take MM/ccw venerables and TLAC normals

I run a grey knight army, you don't need dreads, they work but I have found success without them.

I am curious about the performance of Assault Cannon/ Autocannon psy-Dreadnoughts. I saw Hulksmash had reported using one once, but that was one rare occurance.

In my games with psyfile dreadnoughts, they are disgusting against mech, but really can't do to marines or anything with a 3+ armor. Though technically that is not their focus, but they got to have something to do when all the rhinos are gone.

Psyflemen are very good again the common meta (mech) but you can live without them, you'll just need to accommodate the lack of long range firepower. A dreadnought with a psycannon doesnt seem too bad of an option but the main issue is the lack of drop pods makes it harder to get them to the front lines unless you're fielding ravens

GKs have relatively short-ranged shooting overall, so unless you're playing on a very terrain-heavy board, autocannons are likely to provide some much-needed long range shooting.

The only reason I wouldn't take them is if they were competing for slots with something else I desperately wanted to take for that game.

That said, it couldn't hurt to magnetise a few dreads to allow weapon swaps for one-off games.

They aren't a must take by any means and they don't definitively have to take T/L Autocannons, but they are clearly the one of the best choices for a long ranged fire support unit. As a general rule you shouldn't mix weapons (for any unit in any army) because you end up wasting shots (and therefore points) firing at targets which one/some of the weapons are ineffective against.

If you aren't giving them two shooting weapons then they are a close/mid range unit by default, because of the DCCW you want to get them in to assault. This makes something like T/L Autocannon (with Psybolt) something of a waste because the range is pointless and you can get much more firepower if you take two and just sit back. The Assault Cannon with or without Psybolt is also not a great choice because you more than likely have Psycannons on all your infantry anyway. The one thing that Dreads can get that is otherwise hard to get into a GK list are Multimeltas, which imo are probably the best choice if you want to use Dreads for aggressive, up close work.

2x Dreadnought with 2 TLAC should be the basis of every competitive Codex: GK list now that the FAQ nerfed Dreadknights, and you should probably make that 3. It's possible to avoid this rule if you have a really cunning plan, but if you're asking in the first place, you probably don't (no disrespect intended).

What do Grey Knights have a lot of?

24" S7 Rending Shooting (psycannons)


What do Grey Knights need to compliment that?

Shooting at ranges longer than 24"


What are the best options for that?

Rifle Dreads
Razorbacks
Henchmen

Razorbacks limit your squad sizes and prevent you from shooting your psycannons out of the tank, but are still an option.
Henchmen are less reliable (BS3) and need a special character to get multiple groups of them. Once you make Henchmen troops, you are kinda playing a different army.


The Psy-Rifle dreads are the most efficient set up for Long Range shooting. Your troops are already carrying the Mid/Short range shooting. GK dreads are decent in close combat, but not that good.

I disagree that this firepower cannot do much against marines.

I'm running 6 psyflemen in my 1850/2000pts and when the mech is dead they do a fine job of whittling down the troopers.

Remember:
They always hit at 3+ and 2+ twin linked
They always wound
Feel No Pain is useless most of the time vs. Str8

Monstrous creatures with power armour or even 2+ saves die to them if they're a primary target. You make them roll dice. Odds say that a dreadnight or an armour 2+ MC have a good chance of dying if 6 dreads shoot at them.

They're also extremely survivable. Especially when in cover. You have to DESTROY them to stop the shooting and they range everything b4 they get withing the enemy threat range.

Psyflemen are awesome.

They also instakill multiple wound marines and HWS.

ph34r wrote:

MarshallDin wrote:Have any of you tried single T/L Autocannons + Doomfist/Stormbolter, or Assault Cannon + Doomfist/Stormbolter (all with psy-bolt ammo)?

No

MarshallDin wrote:How did they perform in battle?

Poorly

I Love these answers; you have just said you have never tried the other options, and when you didn't try them they performed poorly

As others have said 4 t-l nearly Krak missiles are better than most other builds.

That said, this weekend I will be trying out a MM+HF w/ psyflame in an Apoc game, said game will be my guard with an Ordo Xenos task force(1 Sqaud of GK termies, 1 GK Dread, 1 GK LRC, Xenos Inquisitor and Henchmen unit of 10 Warriors in PA w/SB+2 monkeys; the rest of the army will be my Tourney Guard + Stormsword, and Baneblade; 4000 points total) Against an Eldar/DE force. I will let you kow how this configuration works out(I am thinking that a Ven in this config will perform about 25% better than the std).

Oh, and Daedalus: A regular Assault cannon will ID HWS

Kommissar Kel wrote:
Oh, and Daedalus: A regular Assault cannon will ID HWS

True. I suppose I pointed out something pretty much unnecessary. I just had a good time wiping out 2 of such squads the other night, so I thought it was worth mention. However, my insta-death marine comment still stands. That's a dead Paladin on a 1. I've killed Rune Priests outright with it. S8 is nasty, even if you get a save versus it.

Wow..a lot of input to be considered here..thanks guys.


I'll play test most, if not all, of the suggestions that have been given. Cheers!!

I feel that a couple are necessary for any non-stormraven/non-deepstriking based list. Without the dreads you have no reliable long range support.

My nobs despise them, they think they nothing but big bullies

Kommissar Kel wrote:I Love these answers; you have just said you have never tried the other options, and when you didn't try them they performed poorly

It doesn't take much thinking to figure out that they would not perform well.

Please no more calling it a "doomfist".. Just use DCCW :( The name itself is a reason never to use it

Since 3rd edition dreadnoughts with DCCWs havent been effective and there is no reason to think they would be now. 2 CC attacks every turn that hit on a 4+ usually is not better than 2 shooting attacks that hit a lot more often and have a 48" range. If you let your shooty dreadnought get into CC that easily that you feel you NEED a CC weapon then you've already failed in your dreadnought strategy

It's like asking if a Vendetta is a must-take. No, but you simply will not find a better deal in the IG codex, and, I think, the entirety of 40k, for such a mobile, versatile, and well-armed vehicle.

Nothing is "required", but you'll find yourself winning a lot more games if you find the points for a couple of them.

ph34r wrote:

Kommissar Kel wrote:I Love these answers; you have just said you have never tried the other options, and when you didn't try them they performed poorly

It doesn't take much thinking to figure out that they would not perform well.

I know what you were meaning, but that was not what was asked; Experience is not the same as Analysis.

Those 2 questions you quoted and then answered were about the experience of using another config; a "have you, and how did it go?" I was merely remarking on the absurdity of the situation, not really the net outcome.

I agree that few other configurations would be worth a hill of beans, I am only going to be trying the MM/Incinerator build because I am proxying with a MM/HF Dread from my regular Marine force; and I like to proxy as little as possible.

kirasu: DCCW vs T-L AC is a little more even than you think.
T-L AC Pros:
2 extra shots in addition to whatever gun you have on the right arm.
Those shots hit on re-rollable 3+ to hit.
Those shots are S7, AP4.
Those shots are 48" range.
Dread still has 2 S6 attacks in CC

T-L AC Cons:
DCCW is S10
Cover saves are applicable to AC Shots
Armor saves are applicable in CC
DCCW still incorporates either a Storm bolter, or a HF(kind of negates the advantage of the 2 extra shots from the AC)

The 3rd edition mentality was that there are twice as many Assault phases as there are Shooting phases, 3rd and 4th also let you consolidate into a new CC.

5th edition does not let you get into a new fight, but Cover is far more prevalent(and often a better save than you already had, and if not, then you already had a better armor save than the AC negates). For this reason while the AC is great for tank hunting it just doesn't really cut it after the tanks are gone. I would rather have a MM/HF or an Asscannon/SB dread to support a rifleman(I am not knocking the Rifleman, just stating it is not the be-all-end-all dread).

Kirasu wrote:Since 3rd edition dreadnoughts with DCCWs havent been effective and there is no reason to think they would be now.

Uh, what?

Its pretty straight forward! Ill even go further, the competitiveness of pretty much all dreadnoughts (That arent 2x AC) pre-blood angels has been very subpar due to their armor value, speed and limited number of attacks/shots. Now, the ironclad is somewhat better but then again the ironclad also cant take 2 autocannons and is no near as good as a furioso

Ever since they gained the ability to take twin auto cannons or blood talons they have become useful.

A DCCW is not a good comfiguration and yes it has been a *bad* option ever since it was developed since vehicles were even EASIER to kill back then. If you want a CC dread play BA, otherwise stick to doing what a dreadnought does decently and thats shooting

I use, extensively, walkers in my armies; with F:AV 12. They are great tarpits and generally kill quite a bit on their way to unit lock-downs.

What I think you are forgetting is that there is not much CC-wise that can deal with/do much damage to AV12.

Grenades, while prevalent, are hitting on 6's and glancing on 6's.

T-hammers/P-fists either do not have the attacks/turn, to really do much good: fully 50% of the damage results do not matter to the walkers, 66% for Armored sentinels, or dreads after removing the DCCW.

I will admit that a dread only really hits/kills 1 model/turn on average, but that is enough to win the combat like 75% of the time, and if they lose the combat they do not care.

Heavy Support Grey Knight Dreadnoughts best options probably are twin psybolt auto cannons because everything else in the Grey Knight has 24 inch range or less which you have in spades with psycannons. The Strength 8 tl auto cannons with 48 range give you the long range anti tank you need. Dreadnought close combat isn't all that important as you have a potentially strength 10 hammer with hammer hand in most of your grey knight squads. Although dreads can be useful in tying up units with no fists or melta bombs.

There might be some argument to go with 1 multimelta and 1 auto cannon if your expecting many land raiders but in general 2 tl auto cannons is better. Venerables 1 multimelta and 1 auto cannon is decent because of the bs5 on the multimelta and venerables are slightly more durable if you get close but still have to watch out for meltas.

I am just going to throw this out there...

Grey knight dreads are extremely rare, lore-wise that is.

That aside, I have the worst luck with dice (have rolled 10 1's three times for my terminator squad...) and have still found success with them, if that doesn't say any thing to a psyfle dreads use, then I don't know what does XD

I love my psyrifle dreads, they do quite a lot of damage in nearly every game. In the game earlier today, one salvo of shots from my venerable dread popped an entire squadron of warwalkers.

Well, throughout the week, I've tried 2 different set-ups. The first couple of games, I used the standard 3 Dreads with 2 x T/L Autocannons dreads as normal. They performed very well, even managing to immobilized a LRC with a lucky glancing hehe!!

Yesterday, in addition to the standard 3 Psyfile-Dreads, I've included 2 Ven Dreads with Aslt-Cnn, Stormbolter & psybolt ammo. All of them were marvelous!! My opponents (DE & Speed Freaks) expected me to field the usual 3 Psyfle-Dreads, but the 2 Ven. Dreads really took them by surprise. Being able to force opponent to re-roll damage results which downgrade 95% of the results yesterday to stunned/shaken, then cast 'Fortitude' in my turn & continue shooting felt a bit cheeze .

Yes, I think so. I'd bargain to say that psyflemandreads are one of the best units in the game right now.

Kirasu wrote:Its pretty straight forward! Ill even go further, the competitiveness of pretty much all dreadnoughts (That arent 2x AC) pre-blood angels has been very subpar due to their armor value, speed and limited number of attacks/shots. Now, the ironclad is somewhat better but then again the ironclad also cant take 2 autocannons and is no near as good as a furioso

Ever since they gained the ability to take twin auto cannons or blood talons they have become useful.

A DCCW is not a good comfiguration and yes it has been a *bad* option ever since it was developed since vehicles were even EASIER to kill back then. If you want a CC dread play BA, otherwise stick to doing what a dreadnought does decently and thats shooting

In my experience, even basic Dreadnoughts with DCCWs are a formidable force in assault; indeed, most units find them completely insurmountable. While the number of attacks you deliver is low, the vast majority of models in the game cannot hurt you at all, so you end up winning a lot of combats by one or two. Further, strength 10 is a significant threat to characters and other multiwound models. I can't speak to how Dreadnoughts performed in prior editions, but at least in 5th Edition they seem quite strong.

Update to a much earlier post: I had my Apoc game; opponent went with Nurgle chaos marines instead of Eldar Corsairs(join dark and craftworld eldar) left the dread in and it only got to fire the Multi-melta twice, once at a vindicator(removed the demolisher cannon), the second along with a Heavy Flamer at a unit of Termies. then the termies charged it and did lots and lots of nothing for the next 3 turns(only 2 power fists in the termie squad, the reaper AC failed to damage it) it only finally died to the daemon prince that charged it who took 2 wounds from truesilver armor, by the time the Prince was able to charge I lost the doomfist. There was only 1 P-fist termie left by the end, the second was killed in the dread explosion.