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digi laser wrote:I'd try a 2000 pt. list like this:

2x demon prince (wings, warptime)
3x 5 man squads of raptors (melta guns)
3x 3 man squads of terminators (combi-plasma, will deep strike)
3 obliterators, individual units
4-5 squads of troops in rhinos.
Gives a lot of punch and surprise. One of those sucker punches will land.

The concept isn't bad, but it's a ton of kill points in squishy little units. It'd probably be okay vs mech IG, where all those meltas dropping in have a decent chance of popping vehicles, and those little 3 man and 5 man squads would be capable of doing something in HtH. But you're over 1200pts with what you've listed before even getting to the Troops in rhinos.

If you figure regular CSMs, a squad of ten costs 150 without a champ, and the rhino adds 35.

You could get in about 4 rhinos worth of men, but with reduced numbers if you wish to field something with more punch.

WarOne wrote:If you figure regular CSMs, a squad of ten costs 150 without a champ, and the rhino adds 35.

You could get in about 4 rhinos worth of men, but with reduced numbers if you wish to field something with more punch.

What exactly are you trying to say here? Kitted out a CSM Melta squad costs about 255 points, assuming you want it to be able to take on most things. Who takes base CSM without upgrades or a champ? That powerfist in the squad always does me good.

Justus wrote:

WarOne wrote:If you figure regular CSMs, a squad of ten costs 150 without a champ, and the rhino adds 35.

You could get in about 4 rhinos worth of men, but with reduced numbers if you wish to field something with more punch.

What exactly are you trying to say here? Kitted out a CSM Melta squad costs about 255 points, assuming you want it to be able to take on most things. Who takes base CSM without upgrades or a champ? That powerfist in the squad always does me good.

The Emperor likes it when the Chaos Space Marines forget their meltaguns and powerfists and leaders at home.

Death to the false Emperor!

I may be partial because I play against Imperial Guard A LOT, but they've been very effective for me against IG, Tau, and Eldar, popping vehicles open and then crushing the units inside in HtH. 2/3 of the game is objective based so my lists are made with that in mind. I'll sacrifice a fast attack slot to kill a scoring unit 8 days a week. I've had OK results running them against Orks. The only armies where they've been uneffective is MEQ. I dont imagine them being effective against demons either, but if you're voluntarily getting close to demons, thats more of a tactical error.

Maybe if they were cheaper. Seriously. They should pack the same amount of punch that a squad of ten in a rhino can for the same points in a different way.

Raptors are quite good, IMO. They can take two meltas and deepstrike for 120 points. Not horrible. BUT. When you compare them to termicide (three models, probably three combis and a chainfist), they really don't make any sense.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Justus wrote:

WarOne wrote:If you figure regular CSMs, a squad of ten costs 150 without a champ, and the rhino adds 35.

You could get in about 4 rhinos worth of men, but with reduced numbers if you wish to field something with more punch.

What exactly are you trying to say here? Kitted out a CSM Melta squad costs about 255 points, assuming you want it to be able to take on most things. Who takes base CSM without upgrades or a champ? That powerfist in the squad always does me good.

Er... Anyone who has any brains, actually. Champs are never worth it to me, except in large assault units (ones that take forever to put down). In small assaults, it ends up being last to die, without causing any actual damage, per se.

x5 CSM, x2 melta,rhino - 130, iirc
x10 CSM, x2 melta,Champion with powerfist, rhino - 255

The former is much more effective, IMO. But for 40 more points, I could get the same unit, but with T5 and FNP

DarknessEternal wrote:

DAaddict wrote:
Cool so then I must assume that they are less. Still that is irrelevant to the survival issue as you have to have a minimum of 5 in either squad. Add the cost of the rhino in and assume you are opposed by a ML and 9 guys with bolters. Because of your movement, you will be within 24" on the first turn. I fire the ML and 9 bolters. Yielding 1 kill from the bolters and 51% chance of killing one with the ML. so 2 dead raptors.
As opposed to the rhino where I have a 33% chance of a penetrating shot and then a resulting 11% chance of blowing up the rhino. Survivability is key and the raptors just lack that.

Now you're just straw-manning irrelevant hypotheticals together and trying to pass it off as an argument.

1.5 dead raptors is going to result in less fire power than a rhino-based squad. Agreed- given the situation the rhino-based squad gets screwed 11%of the time.

The problem is there are better options to do everything that raptors can do.
Termicide vs raptors = cost is about the same, factor in 6 wounding shots taken and 2 of 3 termies are still there with 2 melta weapons while the raptor is in crap shoot mode.

Assault - the one thing a raptor unit can do is move 12" and assault whereas a regular CSM in a rhino has to get out, shoot and survive a round. The problem is the only heavy hitter in a raptor unit is the aspiring champion and that is not enough for it to take a role as a CC specialist.

Firepower- hoard control - alright a raptor unit with 2 flamers may have a role but in 5th edition, the pressure is on anti-tank so much so that the raptors are an expensive delivery system for flamers.

If raptors had one more base attack maybe but when we are talking the difference is 2 turns plus one shot from pistols or 3 turns plus two shots per bolter plus the fact that the rhino provides some protection and it is a push with a slight advantage to the raptors. That is until you factor in that you need troops to control objectives and the raptors lose out.

Don't get me wrong, they are fun. They are fluffy. But they are not the best choice for the job.

A friend of mine uses 5-raptor squads with 2 meltaguns. A lot of people say terminators with combi-meltas are better for less - but in his experience, raptors are mobile enough to keep moving around and shooting things if they survive the first turn. Whereas terminators, once they fire, are just footsloggers with power weapons, no great threat.

I-bounty-hunt-the-elderly wrote:A friend of mine uses 5-raptor squads with 2 meltaguns. A lot of people say terminators with combi-meltas are better for less - but in his experience, raptors are mobile enough to keep moving around and shooting things if they survive the first turn. Whereas terminators, once they fire, are just footsloggers with power weapons, no great threat.

It adds to the cost but I always pack a chainfist in my termies. Although I will agree that raptors are much more mobile it is just a matter of choice.
2 in 5 with meltaguns with 3+ saves or 3 with combi-meltas and 2+ saves. Then you just have to choose if you prefer the 12" move or not.

It adds to the cost but I always pack a chainfist in my termies. Although I will agree that raptors are much more mobile it is just a matter of choice.
2 in 5 with meltaguns with 3+ saves or 3 with combi-meltas and 2+ saves. Then you just have to choose if you prefer the 12" move or not.

Since the raptors tend to draw a lot of small arms fire. I like to run MoN. A lot of people knock it becasue its expensive but I love it. It greatly increases their survivability if the opponent is reserved to using small arms fire and if they want to use heavies, plasma, etc. , they have to pick their poison between the raptors or the nastiness of whats coming after them. usually a demon prince or a land raider with assault terms or Khorne Berserkers.

I've only just reciently started playing CSM and have been using raptors as escorts to a winged demon prince and chaos sorcerer with wings. An expensive unit, yes, I totally agree with the price arguement. Sure, I might not have much else on the field at that point. However, in the three games I've used that combo all three times it was a devistating blow to the hard targets I aimed them for. The focus wasn't so much on using the Raptors as the unit doing the damage, they served as great escorts for my two heavy hitters. Only one of those games did I lose that group but by the time they were finally killed my CSM troops on foot had already set up to gun down whatever was left. I can understand that this tactic might not work on all too many army lists but so far it hasn't failed me. There's my two cents at least, for whatever it's worth.

Bad Wolf wrote:I've only just reciently started playing CSM and have been using raptors as escorts to a winged demon prince and chaos sorcerer with wings. An expensive unit, yes, I totally agree with the price arguement. Sure, I might not have much else on the field at that point. However, in the three games I've used that combo all three times it was a devistating blow to the hard targets I aimed them for. The focus wasn't so much on using the Raptors as the unit doing the damage, they served as great escorts for my two heavy hitters. Only one of those games did I lose that group but by the time they were finally killed my CSM troops on foot had already set up to gun down whatever was left. I can understand that this tactic might not work on all too many army lists but so far it hasn't failed me. There's my two cents at least, for whatever it's worth.

Its a good point. You're increasing the survivability of your ICs by using the Raptors as a mobile escort. Thats pretty good synergy by increasing the effectiveness of the ICs and your Rhino units by creating a durable unit that will soak up alot of firepower and be a high priority for your opponent. This keeps the fire off your CSMs who can pack a pretty good punch on their own. Its one of the keys to effective list building but often overlooked because its theoretically not "efficient."

Poster - "Why do people hate unit? X I love unit X it's my favorite this one time it totally killed like 8 dreadnoughts or whatever in my friends crappy army and it was AWESOME TO THE MAX"

Dakka tactics posters - "Because unit X costs more and is worse than units Y and Z in every conceivable way, shape, and form"

Poster - "Well yeah but it's awesome so I'm going to use it anyway"

What is the thought process that leads to people creating these threads over and over? Were you hoping someone was going to say "Well most of those people out there think Raptors suck but if you take them you're secretly a tactical genius"?

Sometimes a unit which looks bad at first glance or is unpopular actually has good uses.

People still dump on lesser daemons, after all.

I've heard for years that Raptors can be viable in a big squad- like 15 or more, where the Icon starts being really cost-effective, but the way I build CSM I generally don't find that I can spare the points to build such an expensive unit.

However the one mess-around game in which I recently finally tried using a huge squad of raptors (I went all the way- 20 with icon of khorne, meltas, and fist, escorting a flying lash sorcerer to move assault targets closer), they were actually pretty impressive. They killed a bunch of stuff, cleared off my opponent's objective, and still had a few left at the end of the game.

MSU Raptors and Termicide Work well together.
5 Raptors, 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory.
A cheap, highly mobile pair of meltas, that can also accurately drop a termicide squad wherever you need it. Chainfists are overkill on a termicide squad. 25pts that may never attack. If 5 meltas wont kill it (3 from the termies and 2 from the Raptors) then neither will a chainfist. Save the 15 points and grab a single powerfist.

Actually raptors suck in many and different terms in this codex. Overpriced, difficult to move without getting hurt, they totally fail ta CC and the special weapons they bring can be found in simple 105 pts termicide squads. Apart from that, it would be nice if they could be different, lets say if the y had a special rule or somethin like that, maybe hit and run etc. Mostly its a big fail to cost that much cause of jump. Oh and a 5man squad with champ melta's and icon and prob a p.fist or somethin cost way too much for the job they can do for you in the battle, cause they will never make their points in kills.

I reckon Raptors could be a lot more competitive if they were cheaper and could take close combat special weapons at least. That and the potential loss of one man carrying an icon didn't hamper them so much...

As many have said however, I'd argue Raptors to be over-priced and lacking in punch, furthermore they can remove from the mech aspect which is the best use for CSM's IMHO.

Nonetheless, I'd say there are 2-3 competitive to semi-competitive builds for them:
- 5x Raptors, 2x Melta.
- 15x(+) Raptors, IoK, Champion w/ fist
- 10x Raptors, Champion w/ fist, 2x Melta

Borkin wrote:MSU Raptors and Termicide Work well together.
5 Raptors, 2 Meltaguns, Icon of Chaos Glory.
A cheap, highly mobile pair of meltas, that can also accurately drop a termicide squad wherever you need it. Chainfists are overkill on a termicide squad. 25pts that may never attack. If 5 meltas wont kill it (3 from the termies and 2 from the Raptors) then neither will a chainfist. Save the 15 points and grab a single powerfist.

Chainfist is 15, PF 10. It's only 5pts' difference, and gives your squad a viable shot at hurting a landraider or enemy walker.

Ooops! Thought they were 25 for some reason, must be thinking of powerfists on power armoured squads. My Bad.
If its only a 5pt difference, then the chainfist would definitely be a better choice.

MikeMcSomething wrote:Poster - "Why do people hate unit? X I love unit X it's my favorite this one time it totally killed like 8 dreadnoughts or whatever in my friends crappy army and it was AWESOME TO THE MAX"

Dakka tactics posters - "Because unit X costs more and is worse than units Y and Z in every conceivable way, shape, and form"

Poster - "Well yeah but it's awesome so I'm going to use it anyway"

What is the thought process that leads to people creating these threads over and over? Were you hoping someone was going to say "Well most of those people out there think Raptors suck but if you take them you're secretly a tactical genius"?

As I have been posting as one of your Dakka tactics posters I will have to plead guilty. I would agree that anyone who is looking for a pat on the back for taking them they are fools.

That being said, ignore all the posters here ( including me) if you have a tactical reason for using raptors over termicide or a rhinoed up squad of say chosen. You have to like the style and flexibility that a given choice provides to you. As a matter of fact, the MoN and the 15-man squad are levels of commitment I have never been willing to contemplate but a bunch of T5 troops that can scream across the board... probably only poor against an IG leaf blower list but otherwise it would be a great shock to most opponents.

Honestly, "points efficiency" doesn't tell you everything you need to know about a unit. Terminators aren't very efficient, whatever variety you're talking about, but they get the job done without dying, and there you are.

What do you get with Raptors that you don't get with other units? Well, you get a really mobile unit, slightly faster than a rhino (about 25%), that can't be stopped by one shot to it's transport. Is it as efficient for melta delivery as many other units? No. Does it have as many bulk attacks per point as Bezerkers? Of course not. Can you still use them and can they still be useful? Of course.

Raptors have their place. It might be nice to have an assaulty unit hiding behind your rhinos, able to tie key units up, or grab an objective. Balance in all things.