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I'm honestly kinda hoping he has Elite Cadre Paingivers rather than Elite Cadre Nihilators. Just to make Nihilator model/units legal targets for Enrage and Medicate.

Carnivore-d, Enraged Nihilators would be something indeed.

I dearly hope he has Carnivore on his spell list.

And that he's a 7 fury caster. I really don't want to see Xerxis: Part 2: And Naked running about.

djphranq wrote:I'm totally digging the Nihilator Warlock.

Agreed, could be a good mini if PP doesnt feth it up...and they have been feth up a lot lately. They seem to be falling into the "more money" trap, much of the newer stuff looks pretty bad, like it was rushed to market just to get something new for people to buy. Thats the start down the road to being just like GW.

What do you mean? Wrath was one of the most solid annual/anthology style releases they've ever done.

Well I guess liking or hating Wrath is more a matter of opinion, but I do get what he's talking about. PP is doing a lot of the same stuff GW has done, the only difference between them is that PP actually tries to give people incentives to start playing their game through sales and junk, and communicates more with their fanbase about their business decisions and various updates, whereas GW acts like they couldn't possibly give less of a damn because they know you'll buy it anyway, and then raise prices seemingly just to spite you.

Every faction gets a new warcaster and battle engine, new mercenaries, new character warjacks, and in the case of Ret, their sparse Warjack roster doubled in size.

And none of it is power creepy must-haves, ESPECIALLY not the hugely expensive battle engines, which truly are optional.

How is this anything at all like GW, where the only way a faction gets new units/models is to wait 5 years for their codex re-release?

PP arguably does some things better than GW, but they still follow a similar business model.

1. The rules for their core game had to be redone because of imbalance, which worsened with every new model release (kinda like "codex creep", with each new model an older one was invalidated).
2. They switched to an army book format (though admittedly the army books aren't essential for play because of stat cards).
3. They hooked bitter ex-GW gamers with their "METAL ROOLZ" advertising spiel, telling everyone they would never do models in plastic, then had to begin switching to plastic due to rising material costs.
4. On that note, their new plastics are just as expensive as the metals they replaced, even though plastic is a cheaper material.
5. Wrath is an expansion designed for larger games and comes with several $100 kits, just like Apocalypse (though probably more balanced).
6. They have a magazine dedicated to advertising their own products.
7. They have a forum (GW had a forum, but still).
8. They have their own range of paints and hobby supplies sold at a premium.
9. They once attempted to sell their own terrain (which in my opinion was overpriced, like some of GW's offerings).
10. They're licensing out their IP to game developers (I believe there's a Warmachine game coming out soon, right?).

I'm not saying they're a carbon copy, like I said they handle some things better than GW did/does, but when you think about it the two companies are not all that different. PP is just a lot smaller, and knows how to communicate better with it's fanbase. Which, honestly, I don't see lasting forever. Eventually PP will get bigger, and with that they'll grow more out-of-touch with their customers, and the lines of communication will start to close, just like they have with GW.

Sidstyler wrote:
5. Wrath is an expansion designed for larger games and comes with several $100 kits, just like Apocalypse (though probably more balanced).

I must have missed something. Wrath just has the battle engine rules in it, and supplemental stuff - aka new models. Nothing screams Apoc to me.

Sidstyler wrote:PP arguably does some things better than GW, but they still follow a similar business model.

1. The rules for their core game had to be redone because of imbalance, which worsened with every new model release (kinda like "codex creep", with each new model an older one was invalidated).

Not true there are dozens of models that are still valid from Prime and the other early books.

2. They switched to an army book format (though admittedly the army books aren't essential for play because of stat cards).

Also not true, the 'Forces of' books are more like compilations. Wrath is in the same format as the older books.

3. They hooked bitter ex-GW gamers with their "METAL ROOLZ" advertising spiel, telling everyone they would never do models in plastic, then had to begin switching to plastic due to rising material costs.

That one reference in Prime really stuck in some people's mind. There are probably more Warmachine players now that have never read that than have.

4. On that note, their new plastics are just as expensive as the metals they replaced, even though plastic is a cheaper material.

Yeah, fair point. With a bit of ingenuity they do make three different warjacks though.

5. Wrath is an expansion designed for larger games and comes with several $100 kits, just like Apocalypse (though probably more balanced).

No it is most definitely not. Apotheosis was Wrath isn't.

6. They have a magazine dedicated to advertising their own products.

They're both printed on paper as well, the similarity pretty much ends there.

7. They have a forum (GW had a forum, but still).

Pretty much every war gaming mini manufacturer has a forum. GW is the exception.

8. They have their own range of paints and hobby supplies sold at a premium.

They're even made by the same company that used to make GW paints back when they were good (foundation paints aside). Prices of their paints are comparable with Vallejo.

9. They once attempted to sell their own terrain (which in my opinion was overpriced, like some of GW's offerings).

I always thought GW's terrain (the recent plastic kits) were pretty good value. I should add that I've not looked at the prices recently and didn't buy them because of their skull obsession.

10. They're licensing out their IP to game developers (I believe there's a Warmachine game coming out soon, right?).

True. I loved Dawn of War, long after i got bored of 40k

Sidstyler wrote:
1. The rules for their core game had to be redone because of imbalance, which worsened with every new model release (kinda like "codex creep", with each new model an older one was invalidated).
2. They switched to an army book format (though admittedly the army books aren't essential for play because of stat cards).
4. On that note, their new plastics are just as expensive as the metals they replaced, even though plastic is a cheaper material.
5. Wrath is an expansion designed for larger games and comes with several $100 kits, just like Apocalypse (though probably more balanced).
6. They have a magazine dedicated to advertising their own products.

1. I understand there were problems back in the day with Mk. 1, but since Mk II I really see nothing to complain about. There's absolutely no codex creep that I can see. New warcasters are different, but not inherently more powerful. The units that have been around since Day 1 are still not only viable, but some of the most commonly played.

2. The army books aren't the least bit necessary to play since every model comes with its own card. What makes the army books attractive is all the background material, a compilation of all units in one place for ease of referability, and the theme forces, which have very minimal overall game impact.

4. Frankly I really don't have a gripe with PP pricing. Once you buy a unit, you're typically done. It's very rare cases where you need duplicates of a unit. Plastic warjacks cost as much as metal warjacks, okay, but plastic warjacks also come with the attachments necessary to build 3-4 different types with a bit of magnetizing.

5. Absolutely not. Wrath added a warcaster, character warjack, and a few new misc models for each of the factions (save Ret who got a lot more). Battle Engines cost about as much as a warjack in-game, and are not nearly so OMGUBER that one would expect to 'spam' battle engines like what we typically see in 40k with Psyfle Dreads or Long Fang squads. The Unbound rules, which is the casual non-competitive 150+ points games similar to Apocalypse are not even in Wrath.

6. I've read White Dwarf (and have since stopped, because it's crap) and I still read/buy No Quarter because it resembles what White Dwarf used to be back in the day; new rules, new stories, previews and tutorials.

I'm not starting another faction. I'm not starting another faction. I'm not starting another faction. I'm not starting another faction.

And NoQuarter is awesome!

Sidstyler wrote:PP arguably does some things better than GW, but they still follow a similar business model.

What? Sell models to gamers? yea that's similar

Sidstyler wrote:2. They switched to an army book format (though admittedly the army books aren't essential for play because of stat cards).

I love the idea of the "Forces of ..." books. As this was their second edition it meant that newcomers to mkII only had to buy a max of two books and then they had everything they needed. And as you say, the forces of aren't essential.

Sidstyler wrote:4. On that note, their new plastics are just as expensive as the metals they replaced, even though plastic is a cheaper material.

If I purchase a full unit of metal Man-o-War Shocktroopers it will cost me £45 (three in a box + two blisters). If I purchase a full unit of plastic Man-o-War Bombardiers it will cost me £27.

If I purchase metal Deathrippers it will cost me £9. If I purchase plastic Deathrippers it will cost me £12. But the models are resculpted, larger in size and Deathrippers came out ages ago in the life of warmachine. I think they are being relatively honest with their pricing of models.

Sidstyler wrote:6. They have a magazine dedicated to advertising their own products.

Yep, it's one big advertising feature. But I've got the latest here. It contains:
optional rules for those who want to play larger battles, previews of upcoming models (read: rules and suggestions on how to play them),
two new theme forces to change the way you play your army,
painting a skorne force quickly,
fluff on the war hog and tactics of the same and a new paint sceme,
how to build up a circle force from the battlebox,
A run down on the cygnar casters, as in how to use them and what works well with them,
how to paint gemstones,
terrain building,
painting competition,
rules for one of their leagues,
and some other stuff.

Yep, all advertising but it feels worthwhile to me and somewhere around issue 300 of white dwarf it didn't feel like value to me. I recently sold white dwarf 18? because it had some fluff someone wanted in it.

Sidstyler wrote:7. They have a forum (GW had a forum, but still).

And on that forum I can go, "why have you made battle engines, they are so overpriced for what they do on the battlefield, they are worthless compared to a jack, this game is going downhill" (not really my opinion) and actually get a response from a developer or two, as well as a load of opinions of other people. There's a guy who will ask seeming stupid questions but then the main story writer will go on the forums and respond with extra fluff that expands what people know about various characters and events.

Sidstyler wrote:9. They once attempted to sell their own terrain (which in my opinion was overpriced, like some of GW's offerings).

Are you talking about this stuff?

If so, yep that was overpriced but it was made by gale force nine under licence.

Sidstyler wrote:but when you think about it the two companies are not all that different. PP is just a lot smaller, and knows how to communicate better with it's fanbase. Which, honestly, I don't see lasting forever. Eventually PP will get bigger, and with that they'll grow more out-of-touch with their customers, and the lines of communication will start to close, just like they have with GW.

I'm unsure about this, yes PP will get bigger, but it is owned by one person, and that person is going to influence the ethos of the company whilst he's in charge.