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TechMarine1 wrote:The Adeptus Astartes have their own forges for creating vehicles, and a certain number of rhinos are eararked as vindicators, predators and whirlwinds. Also, in the old days before the Horus Heresy, IG used land raiders...but the heresy saw the traitor legions and dark mechanicus escape into the eye of terror with the plans for the land raider.

Obviously it would vary by chapter but I don't imagine that they can manufacture something as advanced as a Land Raider by themselves... at least, certainly not a chapter like the Dark Angels who don't even own a planet.

I always imagine they have to put an order in with the local forgeworld on top priority

I'm certainly under the impression that Space Marine Chapters are limited to maintaining there vehicles and equipment, occasionally modifying them if needs must. A Chapter typically only has a dozen or so Tech Marines, if I recall correctly. Mostly there job is to keep the Chapter's gear going as long as possible, and the Ad Mech replaces whatever in inevitably lost.

Techmarines also have a large number of serfs who aid them in maintaining chapter equipment.

Some Chapters have immense prodcution facilities - Deliverence (Raven Guard) is described as a similar to a small Forge World. Other chapters have very strong links to the AM and have production for their equipment and space going vessels. At least one space going chapter has vast Forge ships.

As always in 40k it varies..............

True, but as a general rule most Marine Chapters seem to be reliant on the Mechanicus. Of course, some clearly can make or at least heavily modify vehicles - The Blood Angels seem to be able to produce the Baal rather than modify a existing Rhino, and the Red Scorpions and Black Templars both redesigned there Land Raiders in the field.

But it's part of why the Mechanicus is so vital - when a ForgeWorld goes dark for whatever reason, it's apparently a huge blow to that whole sector, reducing the weapons and ammo available to all the Imperial forces. Of course, that could be referring purely to Guard and PDF forces, but I think it includes Marine forces too.

purplefood wrote:The rhino is pretty ubiquitous anyway... the arbites also use them.

Historically, fluffwise, the Rhino is a pretty generic civilian and military vehicle especially on more harsh worlds. Its only in the recent vanilla codex where they are suddenly some lost knowledge machinery. before that they were your every day soccer mom mobile. I prefer the earlier fluff as being more correct.

Frazzled wrote:

purplefood wrote:The rhino is pretty ubiquitous anyway... the arbites also use them.

Historically, fluffwise, the Rhino is a pretty generic civilian and military vehicle especially on more harsh worlds. Its only in the recent vanilla codex where they are suddenly some lost knowledge machinery. before that they were your every day soccer mom mobile. I prefer the earlier fluff as being more correct.

I prefer that as well considering...

Frazzled wrote:

purplefood wrote:The rhino is pretty ubiquitous anyway... the arbites also use them.

Historically, fluffwise, the Rhino is a pretty generic civilian and military vehicle especially on more harsh worlds. Its only in the recent vanilla codex where they are suddenly some lost knowledge machinery. before that they were your every day soccer mom mobile. I prefer the earlier fluff as being more correct.

The way I look at them personally is that they're simple enough to crank out with specialist machinery but said machinery can no longer be made from scratch or maintained easily... so Forgeworlds can crank Rhinos out easily enough but if the production facilities are lost or if they want to build Rhinos elsewhere then it's just not an easy task...

Anyone else like to imagine that the Rogue Trader days were set around/just after the Heresy?

It fits much better. Jetbike Guardsmen etc.

purplefood wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

purplefood wrote:The rhino is pretty ubiquitous anyway... the arbites also use them.

Historically, fluffwise, the Rhino is a pretty generic civilian and military vehicle especially on more harsh worlds. Its only in the recent vanilla codex where they are suddenly some lost knowledge machinery. before that they were your every day soccer mom mobile. I prefer the earlier fluff as being more correct.

I prefer that as well considering...

Considering it's never been some kind of "lost knowledge machinery", not even now, I personally prefer people to actually read the fluff before complaining.

The Rhino is a "pretty generic civilian and military vehicle"...except it's not. There hasn't really been instances of PDFs equipped with Rhinos, nor are Dave and Linda driving to their kids' Emperor Bowl match in the new Rhino Coupe.

The Arbites, who possess Rhino chassis vehicles, mainly utilize the Repressor. Why? It works for the role they need it.

The Adepta Sororitas possess Rhino chassis vehicles, again because it works for the role they fit.

PDFs however usually have some form of locally produced APC. Whether it's a half-track with a fully enclosed rear compartment, a Chimera, or some kind of 6x6 wheeled APC with a cannon on the roof--that's what they use.

Putting it bluntly: the Rhino is where it needs to be--in the hands of small forces that need to operate rapidly and need something that can run in any kind of conditions, off of any potential fuel source.

The Chimera, which the Guard use, is where it needs to be--in the hands of a force that needs something fairly heavily armed and armored with the caveat that it is able to be mass produced.

Jon Garrett wrote:True, but as a general rule most Marine Chapters seem to be reliant on the Mechanicus. Of course, some clearly can make or at least heavily modify vehicles - The Blood Angels seem to be able to produce the Baal rather than modify a existing Rhino, and the Red Scorpions and Black Templars both redesigned there Land Raiders in the field.

The Baal is not the same as the Helios or Land Raider Crusader.
The Baal is actually an entirely different build, which the Blood Angels uncovered the STC for. They also refuse to turn the STC over.
The Helios was created by gutting a Whirlwind and putting the parts on a Land Raider.
The Land Raider Crusader was a field modification as well, much like the Helios or the Imperial Guard's "Thunderer" Siege Tank.

But it's part of why the Mechanicus is so vital - when a ForgeWorld goes dark for whatever reason, it's apparently a huge blow to that whole sector, reducing the weapons and ammo available to all the Imperial forces. Of course, that could be referring purely to Guard and PDF forces, but I think it includes Marine forces too.

Yes and no on the including Marine forces. Their Chapter Armory consists of Serfs(NOT Servitors. BIG difference) overseen by the Chapter's Techmarines. The Armory is what maintains and produces the equipment for the Chapter. They usually have access to Forge Worlds or in the case of certain Chapters, they actually have the capability on board their ships.

Except of course, historically fluffwise, Rhinos were noted in the fluff as being ubiquitous. Sorry.

Indeed an earlier IG codex permitted rhinos.

An earlier IG codex also permitted jetbikes.

The Chimera has also been noted as 'ubiquitous' as have Land Speeders.

What's your point?

Kanluwen wrote:An earlier IG codex also permitted jetbikes.

The Chimera has also been noted as 'ubiquitous' as have Land Speeders.

What's your point?

You're arguming rhinos aren't generic. In fluff throughout GW's 40K history, they have been, as generic as the 113s they are patterned after. This only changed (slightly) with the current ultrasmurf codex.

Kanluwen wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:True, but as a general rule most Marine Chapters seem to be reliant on the Mechanicus. Of course, some clearly can make or at least heavily modify vehicles - The Blood Angels seem to be able to produce the Baal rather than modify a existing Rhino, and the Red Scorpions and Black Templars both redesigned there Land Raiders in the field.

The Baal is not the same as the Helios or Land Raider Crusader.
The Baal is actually an entirely different build, which the Blood Angels uncovered the STC for. They also refuse to turn the STC over.
The Helios was created by gutting a Whirlwind and putting the parts on a Land Raider.
The Land Raider Crusader was a field modification as well, much like the Helios or the Imperial Guard's "Thunderer" Siege Tank.

That's what I was trying to point out - that the Blood Angels either have the capacity to produce Baal's from scratch or, at the very least, modify and existing Rhino or Predetor into one. And that the Black Templars and Red Scorpions have sufficient skill and resources to modify one of the most complex fighting machines the Imperium has access to in the field, with what must be assumed limited access to actual repair or construction facilities.

Kanluwen wrote:

But it's part of why the Mechanicus is so vital - when a ForgeWorld goes dark for whatever reason, it's apparently a huge blow to that whole sector, reducing the weapons and ammo available to all the Imperial forces. Of course, that could be referring purely to Guard and PDF forces, but I think it includes Marine forces too.

Yes and no on the including Marine forces. Their Chapter Armory consists of Serfs(NOT Servitors. BIG difference) overseen by the Chapter's Techmarines. The Armory is what maintains and produces the equipment for the Chapter. They usually have access to Forge Worlds or in the case of certain Chapters, they actually have the capability on board their ships.

Well, the Chapters also has at least some Servitors running around, but if a Marine force can produce gear, I suspect it's very limited. Especially give how the fluff tends to go on about the more advanced toys being harder and harder to make. I know even Marines tend to make there suits of Armour from bits scavenged from older suits, and they're often something of a mish-mash, suggesting they can't replace a lot of there equipment. Or at least not fast.

My argument is that Rhinos aren't "a pretty generic civilian or military vehicle"(your statement).

Which, guess what? They aren't.
The PDFs("militaries") of most planets aren't using Rhinos--they're using Chimeras or locally produced halftracks or things of that nature.
Civilians aren't driving around in Rhinos, they're using groundcars or various anti-grav vehicles.

The only exceptions to those are the Adeptus Arbites and the Sororitas--but neither of those would really have any use for the Chimera.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jon Garrett wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:True, but as a general rule most Marine Chapters seem to be reliant on the Mechanicus. Of course, some clearly can make or at least heavily modify vehicles - The Blood Angels seem to be able to produce the Baal rather than modify a existing Rhino, and the Red Scorpions and Black Templars both redesigned there Land Raiders in the field.

The Baal is not the same as the Helios or Land Raider Crusader.
The Baal is actually an entirely different build, which the Blood Angels uncovered the STC for. They also refuse to turn the STC over.
The Helios was created by gutting a Whirlwind and putting the parts on a Land Raider.
The Land Raider Crusader was a field modification as well, much like the Helios or the Imperial Guard's "Thunderer" Siege Tank.

That's what I was trying to point out - that the Blood Angels either have the capacity to produce Baal's from scratch or, at the very least, modify and existing Rhino or Predetor into one. And that the Black Templars and Red Scorpions have sufficient skill and resources to modify one of the most complex fighting machines the Imperium has access to in the field, with what must be assumed limited access to actual repair or construction facilities.

The Baal isn't something that is modified. They are produced from the start as a Baal Predator.

Kanluwen wrote:

But it's part of why the Mechanicus is so vital - when a ForgeWorld goes dark for whatever reason, it's apparently a huge blow to that whole sector, reducing the weapons and ammo available to all the Imperial forces. Of course, that could be referring purely to Guard and PDF forces, but I think it includes Marine forces too.

Yes and no on the including Marine forces. Their Chapter Armory consists of Serfs(NOT Servitors. BIG difference) overseen by the Chapter's Techmarines. The Armory is what maintains and produces the equipment for the Chapter. They usually have access to Forge Worlds or in the case of certain Chapters, they actually have the capability on board their ships.

Well, the Chapters also has at least some Servitors running around, but if a Marine force can produce gear, I suspect it's very limited. Especially give how the fluff tends to go on about the more advanced toys being harder and harder to make.

The thing is you're confusing "a Marine force" and the Chapter as a whole. Production capabilities in the field, likely, are going to be limited no matter what.
Producing Terminator Armour, however, is possible and is done--just not as frequently as it should be.

The part about the Servitors is that Servitors and Serfs are two different things. The Serfs within the Chapter Armory are usually talented artisans and responsible for things like the intricate gildwork you see on Calgar's armor, etc.
The Servitors handle the more 'menial' tasks like cleaning the wargear, dumping the metal shavings, crap like that.

I know even Marines tend to make their suits of Armour from bits scavenged from older suits, and they're often something of a mish-mash, suggesting they can't replace a lot of there equipment. Or at least not fast.

Here's where another thing comes up.

Marines tend to make their suits of armor from bits scavenged from older suits not because they can't replace it--but because the older stuff has history. There's a lineage to each piece of power armor, and the power armor can even develop a sort of 'personality' in its systems. The Deathwatch RPG does a great job illustrating this.

Kanluwen wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Jon Garrett wrote:True, but as a general rule most Marine Chapters seem to be reliant on the Mechanicus. Of course, some clearly can make or at least heavily modify vehicles - The Blood Angels seem to be able to produce the Baal rather than modify a existing Rhino, and the Red Scorpions and Black Templars both redesigned there Land Raiders in the field.

The Baal is not the same as the Helios or Land Raider Crusader.
The Baal is actually an entirely different build, which the Blood Angels uncovered the STC for. They also refuse to turn the STC over.
The Helios was created by gutting a Whirlwind and putting the parts on a Land Raider.
The Land Raider Crusader was a field modification as well, much like the Helios or the Imperial Guard's "Thunderer" Siege Tank.

That's what I was trying to point out - that the Blood Angels either have the capacity to produce Baal's from scratch or, at the very least, modify and existing Rhino or Predetor into one. And that the Black Templars and Red Scorpions have sufficient skill and resources to modify one of the most complex fighting machines the Imperium has access to in the field, with what must be assumed limited access to actual repair or construction facilities.

The Baal isn't something that is modified. They are produced from the start as a Baal Predator.

Kanluwen wrote:

But it's part of why the Mechanicus is so vital - when a ForgeWorld goes dark for whatever reason, it's apparently a huge blow to that whole sector, reducing the weapons and ammo available to all the Imperial forces. Of course, that could be referring purely to Guard and PDF forces, but I think it includes Marine forces too.

Yes and no on the including Marine forces. Their Chapter Armory consists of Serfs(NOT Servitors. BIG difference) overseen by the Chapter's Techmarines. The Armory is what maintains and produces the equipment for the Chapter. They usually have access to Forge Worlds or in the case of certain Chapters, they actually have the capability on board their ships.

Well, the Chapters also has at least some Servitors running around, but if a Marine force can produce gear, I suspect it's very limited. Especially give how the fluff tends to go on about the more advanced toys being harder and harder to make.

The thing is you're confusing "a Marine force" and the Chapter as a whole. Production capabilities in the field, likely, are going to be limited no matter what.
Producing Terminator Armour, however, is possible and is done--just not as frequently as it should be.

The part about the Servitors is that Servitors and Serfs are two different things. The Serfs within the Chapter Armory are usually talented artisans and responsible for things like the intricate gildwork you see on Calgar's armor, etc.
The Servitors handle the more 'menial' tasks like cleaning the wargear, dumping the metal shavings, crap like that.

I know even Marines tend to make their suits of Armour from bits scavenged from older suits, and they're often something of a mish-mash, suggesting they can't replace a lot of there equipment. Or at least not fast.

Here's where another thing comes up.

Marines tend to make their suits of armor from bits scavenged from older suits not because they can't replace it--but because the older stuff has history. There's a lineage to each piece of power armor, and the power armor can even develop a sort of 'personality' in its systems. The Deathwatch RPG does a great job illustrating this.

There's no doubt that Marines can produce some stuff. I was trying to use the Blood Angels, Red Scorpions and Black Templar as an example of just how much the Marines can achieve, in the case of the former two in poor conditions. It doesn't matter if the Blood Angels modify a Rhino into a Baal or just build it from scratch - either is extremely impressive, and so far as I know at least, there's no fluff one way or the other as to how, exactly, they make it.

But that doesn't mean they have the facilities to build much more than that. If they did - why wouldn't the whole force be wearing Terminator Armour? Why wouldn't Land Raiders be every squads ride? They can maintain, and possibly even build sets of power armour, and maybe vehicles based on the Rhino chassis. And quite probably the weapon systems. But I don't think they can build anything more advanced that that - Land Speeders, Land Raiders, Terminator Armour, Dreadnaughts or, of course, there ships. And let's face it - the ships of the Marines are there most important asset. Even more so than boltguns, power armour and vehicles. Without those ships they aren't going anywhere.

And I'm not sure they can build enough of what they can build fast enough to keep the chapter functioning without the odd resupply from the Mechanicus.

Forgeworld build the uber rare stuff like Land Raiders and Terminator armour.
Other than that chapters can build enough stuff to keep themselves going, indepenant of everyone else.
The BA have an STC for the Ball predator so i think it is fairly safe to assume they build them from scratch.

I only just found out that Witch Hunters can take Land Raiders? Well who'd have thought that...

Well, Inquisitors can take pretty much anything I guess.