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Small, Far Away wrote:I think he may be an Old One by technicality, but he wasn't born one.

But that's like saying he's a Chaos God by technicality as he is a powerful, immortal entity that is inexplicably tied to the warp and has god-like powers.


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Which is one of my pet theories.

In the context of 40k the term Old Ones refers to a distinct race, it doesn't mean long lived, someone born to human parents cannot turn into a Old One. Old Ones is the name given to the super race because they lived a long time ago.

The Emperor could also not be defined as a Chaos God, as that refers to a destict group of warp being (the warp is inhabitated by a variety of creatures/being) that has a significant desire to watch the mortal world burn.

DeadlySquirrel is correct, the emperor is not immortal. While it may commonly be used to mean a being that doesn't age, it is being incorrectly used. Immortal means not mortal. A mortal is something subject to death. An immortal cannot die- in anyway. There are no varying definitions- just people bending the words use. It's just a lot easier to say "he is immortal" than "he never aged and was impossible to kill unless you have something which can"

Invulnerable means another thing entirely. being invulnerable means impossible to harm. The emperor recieved wounds during his battles (not just from the fight with Horus) so wasn't invulnerable. It's possible to be immortal but not invulnerable- a being which cannot die but can be hurt.

The emperor was neither immortal nor invulnerable. He was a psyker with a prolonged life (it's impossible to say anything can live for ever since we have never reached that point) and had superhuman abilities.

I think most people have no idea what immortal really means. According to biblical sources it means that after bodily death, a persons soul goes on living in a different dimension. In the case of the Emperor that would probably be the Warp. Then there is Eternal Life. Biblically that means you cannot harm the physical body by any normal means, not even old age. In order to harm someone like that it would require a god like power, as in the case of Morai Heg asking Khaine to cut off her hand so she could partake of the wisdom contained in her divine blood. This is also why there is a differentiation in the bible between the word Immortality and Eternal Life. They do make a distinction.

The emperor is immortal, but he does not have eternal life.

Fine, he is biologically immortal.

I think most people have no idea what immortal really means. According to biblical sources it means that after bodily death, a persons soul goes on living in a different dimension. In the case of the Emperor that would probably be the Warp. Then there is Eternal Life. Biblically that means you cannot harm the physical body by any normal means, not even old age. In order to harm someone like that it would require a god like power, as in the case of Morai Heg asking Khaine to cut off her hand so she could partake of the wisdom contained in her divine blood. This is also why there is a differentiation in the bible between the word Immortality and Eternal Life. They do make a distinction.

That doesn't really make sense. Their body cannot be harmed but they can die?
In the english language Immortal simply means never dying. No special meanings or exceptions. It means eternal, never ending life. The direct definition is: "Living forever; never dying or decaying". If we take the biblical definition a lot of creatures in 40k are immortal as many species loose their soul to the warp any many are capable of surviving it. All eldar would be immortal as would chaos worshippers.

Fine, he is biologically immortal

I hate to nitpick but still incorrect. The emperor isn't immortal in anyway since his physical body has died (well it's on the edge and would be gone if not for the golden throne). Comparing the emp to the above definintion shows he is't immortal at all.

Then I suggest you look for the meaning of biological immortality, also known as, the absence of aging. Ta da! The Emperor is immortal.

It's impossible to prove that he is immortal biologically or otherwise. He may have been a year away from death before Horus beat him.

Nothing can ever be proved as immortal because that would require them to have lived for ever. Since time never ends we can't check. It's likely he was immortal but until GW provide and outside view saying he was immortal we can't be sure.

Agree to disagree.

4M2A wrote:DeadlySquirrel is correct, the emperor is not immortal. While it may commonly be used to mean a being that doesn't age, it is being incorrectly used. Immortal means not mortal. A mortal is something subject to death. An immortal cannot die- in anyway. There are no varying definitions- just people bending the words use. It's just a lot easier to say "he is immortal" than "he never aged and was impossible to kill unless you have something which can"

Invulnerable means another thing entirely. being invulnerable means impossible to harm. The emperor recieved wounds during his battles (not just from the fight with Horus) so wasn't invulnerable. It's possible to be immortal but not invulnerable- a being which cannot die but can be hurt.

The emperor was neither immortal nor invulnerable. He was a psyker with a prolonged life (it's impossible to say anything can live for ever since we have never reached that point) and had superhuman abilities.

Thank you.

EDIT: Biological Immortality is different... It means you cannot die of old age. You can still die by being hit by a bus, a flesh eating virus or a crazed axe murderer. Yes, the Emprah is biologicaly immortal but is by no means immortal.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

4M2A wrote:DeadlySquirrel is correct, the emperor is not immortal. While it may commonly be used to mean a being that doesn't age, it is being incorrectly used. Immortal means not mortal. A mortal is something subject to death. An immortal cannot die- in anyway. There are no varying definitions- just people bending the words use. It's just a lot easier to say "he is immortal" than "he never aged and was impossible to kill unless you have something which can"

Invulnerable means another thing entirely. being invulnerable means impossible to harm. The emperor recieved wounds during his battles (not just from the fight with Horus) so wasn't invulnerable. It's possible to be immortal but not invulnerable- a being which cannot die but can be hurt.

The emperor was neither immortal nor invulnerable. He was a psyker with a prolonged life (it's impossible to say anything can live for ever since we have never reached that point) and had superhuman abilities.

Thank you.

EDIT: Biological Immortality is different... It means you cannot die of old age. You can still die by being hit by a bus, a flesh eating virus or a crazed axe murderer. Yes, the Emprah is biologicaly immortal but is by no means immortal.

But there is one hole in all of this, mortal also means that you stop to exist after death. And all is pointing to that the Emperor's soul will still be out there even after his body fails.
+ there is 99% chance that he will be resurrect after death, get new body and all... Now that's true immortality.

Yeah, I thought you missed everything I was saying before now, which for further clarity, was that The Emperor was immune to the effects of aging, the proper term for which is biological immortality, hence, since this is true, The Emperor is Immortal. There's a reason to why hes referred to as The Immortal God Emperor in fluff.
Of course, as is predictable, once proved wrong by the term Biological Immortality, which by definition and terminology is Immortality, the opposition dismisses it as "by no means immortal".

iproxtaco wrote:Yeah, I thought you missed everything I was saying before now, which for further clarity, was that The Emperor was immune to the effects of aging, the proper term for which is biological immortality, hence, since this is true, The Emperor is Immortal. There's a reason to why hes referred to as The Immortal God Emperor in fluff.
Of course, as is predictable, once proved wrong by the term Biological Immortality, which by definition and terminology is Immortality, the opposition dismisses it as "by no means immortal".

No. Biological Immortality is not true immortality. It means you cannot die of old age. As i previously stated, you can die from other causes such as being hit by a bus.

Immortality means you are incapable of dying. And seeing as the Emprah only has a few cells left alive and the others are DEAD, I'd say he is not immortal.

He IS immortal, biologically IMMORTAL. And as I said, dismissed for no reason other than it proves wrong the opposition.

iproxtaco wrote:He IS immortal, biologically IMMORTAL. And as I said, dismissed for no reason other than it proves wrong the opposition.

What part of biological immortality ISN'T immortality do you not grasp?

ANYWAY. Lets get back on topic and end our wonderful dispute before this thread gets closed.

The definition of immortal:
im·mor·tal   
[ih-mawr-tl]
–adjective
1.
not mortal; not liable or subject to death; undying
2.
remembered or celebrated through all time
3.
not liable to perish or decay


Definition of invulnerable:
in·vul·ner·a·ble   
[in-vuhl-ner-uh-buhl]
–adjective
1.
incapable of being wounded, hurt, or damaged.
2.
proof against or immune to attack
3.
not open to denial or disproof


Immortal applies, invulnerable does not. The Emperors SOUL will not die. Is body IS dead. And don't forget the Star Child, nor the Illuminati.

I'm not sure there's anything to grasp. It's a different form of Immortality, a scientific definition of the term.

iproxtaco wrote:I'm not sure there's anything to grasp. It's a different form of Immortality, a scientific definition of the term.

I have dropped it, you should too.

Dropped it? Also known as, admitting defeat. Victory!

iproxtaco wrote:Dropped it? Also known as, admitting defeat. Victory!

Nah, I just feel that the troll has had enough food for today. And thus I leave the thread. Good day to you, sir.

DeadlySquirrel wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Dropped it? Also known as, admitting defeat. Victory!

Nah, I just feel that the troll has had enough food for today. And thus I leave the thread. Good day to you, sir.

Actually, both of you are hell-bent that you are right.

Correct above sir, don't cite troll, when both opponents are adamant in their correctitude.

The Emperor has longevity, in that he has a long natural lifespan, seemingly immortal, but not proven so, though does this stupid argument really matter?

Anyway, the Emperor, as has been said before, has had his origins spelled out, being a reincarnation of psykers/shamans.

Please refresh my memory, what book does it say he is made from reincarnated psykers and shamans?

iproxtaco wrote:Correct above sir, don't cite troll, when both opponents are adamant in their correctitude.

You're just trolling each other. Which should not be surprising to anyone at this point.

No, neither of them are trolling. They just disagree with each other and both believe themselves to be right.

Also, I do not believe that there is a 'scientific' definition of immortality.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:Please refresh my memory, what book does it say he is made from reincarnated psykers and shamans?

Both Realm of Chaos books.


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htj wrote:No, neither of them are trolling. They just disagree with each other and both believe themselves to be right.

Also, I do not believe that there is a 'scientific' definition of immortality.

Yes, biological immortality, the absence of the effect of aging.

DarknessEternal wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Correct above sir, don't cite troll, when both opponents are adamant in their correctitude.

You're just trolling each other. Which should not be surprising to anyone at this point.

Nope. People are far too quick to shout troll these days.

iproxtaco wrote:

htj wrote:No, neither of them are trolling. They just disagree with each other and both believe themselves to be right.

Also, I do not believe that there is a 'scientific' definition of immortality.

Yes, biological immortality, the absence of the effect of aging.

Can you cite a scientific source in which that is used? If it's too much of a hassle, don't worry, I'm just interested to see where this is used in a scientific context.

iproxtaco wrote:Nope. People are far too quick to shout troll these days.

Very true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_immortality

It simply the absence of the aging effect. As noted in the article, death can be achieved, so to speak, by sufficient trauma or disease. It's a scientific definition, not the true immortality cited in the Immortality page.
However, if The Emperor is able to reincarnate indefinitely, which could be demonstrated by the Star-child/Sensei theories, then he could be truly immortal.

Thanks, iproxtaco, that's interesting reading.

there is much side-ways GW logic missing in this thread.

1. Gods die in 40k, but they are immortal. Case in point is the avatar of the bloody handed god (who it may be recalled is dead yet brought to life via the avatar). Cain also killed his brother god.
2. The emperor differs from gods only in having a canon claiming human birth. Sound familiar to Christians?
3. The emperor is honored as a god in the imperium, not becuase he lived a long time nor because he was born human, but because he did things only a god could do.
4. He is opposed to chaos and their Gods, but this doesn't mean he isn't of the same stuff. He very well could be another Chaos god (as we'd call them) only with the opposite view of life. Remember there were other "gods" that didn't quite make it in GW land. Malal being the prime example of an anti-chaos oriented chaos god. While not exactly good, he was opposed to all the other chaos gods.
6. He lives on the golden chair, because for GW to explain anything further would end the endless debates that keep us buying stuff from GW.

The old ones are simply a GW effort to keep any of the existing races from being the oldest, and divorce fluff from any existing serious religion. You cant have a single god knowing and creating everything, as this would lead to divisive debates with no good outcome. A race of old beings seeding intelligent life, is BTW a 20th century explanation of how humans evolved faster/better than others.

My take, FWIW, is that the emperor is a GW style God, not unlike all the other super beings. Like them he has great powers, and like them he can be killed.