Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?

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**Praxiss**

I think that making the Dreadknight a MC actually weakens it a little. if they had given it AV you know it woudl have been up there around 12/13 front armour.

As it is you can take it out with rapid fire plasma, much like the DP. i think so anyway, i'm not 100% of it's stats or saves. you woudl thinka flurry os A7 AP2 would bring it down pretty quick either way.

**rubicant99**

I think ur right on Loota boy; the Dread vs MC iconic battle that you see so often in pics and stories is actually very one sided on the table top, and I dont think it should be.

**Shrike325**

I think people overplay how well a MC can do against a walker. I would say that the three most common MCs would be a Hive Tyrant, Wraithlord, and Daemon Prince.

Assuming no charges and against AV12 (Dreadnought):
The Prince and Tyrant:
4 attacks
2 hits
58% chance to pen = 1.16
33% chance to destroy = .38 destroyed
14% chance to glance = .28
12% chance to destroy = .03 destroyed
Total chance to destroy = .41

Not GREAT, but not "zomg it's going to instadie if I have it fight!!"

Wraithlord on the other hand... totally destroys walkers.

**Anvildude**

And then you look at Walkers going back... run-of-the mill Drednoughts would have a lot of trouble.

Deffdredds with 4 DCCWs have less trouble, but that's if they survive- and they'll still likely not completely kill it, and the MC will be at fighting strength even with one wound left- every hit the MC does to the Walker reduces its fighting capabilities.

Maybe if DCCWs did double wounds? Not quite the MC's 2d6 AP, more of a squishy answer to that- so Walkers are even more absolute terror to anything without an AV, and MCs are absolute terror to anythingwith AV. And it wouldn't even overpower the Furioso Dredd/ Dual Bloodtalons dredd, since those aren't DCCWs!

**Riddick40k**

I'm pretty sure you GK players just want the DK to be a walker so you can fly them around in Stormravens...not something I would wanna deal with. Also how do you expect Tryanids to deal with land Raiders if MC didn't have the 2D6? the only thing that could kill a LR would be Zoanthropes and tyranofexes, and let's face it that ridiculous. Also Chaos Daemons would be screwed as nothing could take out LR but screamers. MC are giant MONSTERS I'm pretty sure a Bloodthirister could cleave his giant axe through anything. If you want walkers and MC to be more equal then maybe make it so walkers and mc always fight at the same initiative. Furiosos with blood talons would destroy them easily.

**rubicant99**

Orks only really have 2 ways to deal with LRs; PKs and deff rollaz, neither of them are 2d6.

**Riddick40k**

rubicant99 wrote:Orks only really have 2 ways to deal with LRs; PKs and deff rollaz, neither of them are 2d6.

Buzzaws, rokitt launchers, deff dreads, killa kanz, zzap guns, all can take out LRs

**rubicant99**

None of which are 2d6

**loota boy**

Riddick40k wrote:I'm pretty sure you GK players just want the DK to be a walker so you can fly them around in Stormravens...not something I would wanna deal with. Also how do you expect Tryanids to deal with land Raiders if MC didn't have the 2D6? the only thing that could kill a LR would be Zoanthropes and tyranofexes, and let's face it that ridiculous. Also Chaos Daemons would be screwed as nothing could take out LR but screamers. MC are giant MONSTERS I'm pretty sure a Bloodthirister could cleave his giant axe through anything. If you want walkers and MC to be more equal then maybe make it so walkers and mc always fight at the same initiative. Furiosos with blood talons would destroy them easily.

Don't Daemons also get a s10 ap1 weapon option on the soulgrinder? I believe it's called tounge?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Riddick40k wrote:
rubicant99 wrote:Orks only really have 2 ways to deal with LRs; PKs and deff rollaz, neither of them are 2d6.

Buzzaws, rokitt launchers, deff dreads, killa kanz, zzap guns, all can take out LRs

Buzzsaws cannot take out landraiders, as they are only str 7 on the charge. Rokkit launchers are only str 8, and with 3 weapons, sometimes 4, you need 5-6 glancing hits to kill it, and 2/3 of the gamncing results are just stun/shaken, and the rokkit only has a 1 in 6 chance of glancing, and only 1 in 3 rokkits hit in the first place. So you would need around 270 rokkit shots to glance a 3-weapon landraider to death, on average. Not what I call reliable. Zzap guns are also a lousy bet on taking out landraiders.

**obsidianaura**

Having it as a MC seems a little odd to me fluff wise. Eldar war walkers are very similar in shape.

The fact is boon of mutation can turn it into a daemon is still hilarious. I suppose you can say that’s just happening to the termy in control though.

**ChocolateGork**

DeadlySquirrel wrote:The OP is right. Dreadknights are not creatures. They are metal suits piloted by GKs. They are however, monsterous and therefore should have the MC rule

Damn so titans aren't monstrous?

**kenshin620**

They are superheavies though, a completely different class

**Riddick40k**

loota boy wrote:
Riddick40k wrote:I'm pretty sure you GK players just want the DK to be a walker so you can fly them around in Stormravens...not something I would wanna deal with. Also how do you expect Tryanids to deal with land Raiders if MC didn't have the 2D6? the only thing that could kill a LR would be Zoanthropes and tyranofexes, and let's face it that ridiculous. Also Chaos Daemons would be screwed as nothing could take out LR but screamers. MC are giant MONSTERS I'm pretty sure a Bloodthirister could cleave his giant axe through anything. If you want walkers and MC to be more equal then maybe make it so walkers and mc always fight at the same initiative. Furiosos with blood talons would destroy them easily.

Don't Daemons also get a s10 ap1 weapon option on the soulgrinder? I believe it's called tounge?

At BS3 and only heavy 1 yeah that's really effective, not to mention that means a Daemon player would always have to take soulgrinders if they wanna take on mech lists, screw Daemon players more why don't ya. I mean with warp quake from GK you could already lose the entire army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Riddick40k wrote:
rubicant99 wrote:Orks only really have 2 ways to deal with LRs; PKs and deff rollaz, neither of them are 2d6.

Which can easily be solved when orks get an MC in their new codex cause we all know it's gonna happen

Buzzaws, rokitt launchers, deff dreads, killa kanz, zzap guns, all can take out LRs

Buzzsaws cannot take out landraiders, as they are only str 7 on the charge. Rokkit launchers are only str 8, and with 3 weapons, sometimes 4, you need 5-6 glancing hits to kill it, and 2/3 of the gamncing results are just stun/shaken, and the rokkit only has a 1 in 6 chance of glancing, and only 1 in 3 rokkits hit in the first place. So you would need around 270 rokkit shots to glance a 3-weapon landraider to death, on average. Not what I call reliable. Zzap guns are also a lousy bet on taking out landraiders.

**Anvildude**

The only things in the Ork kodex with more than a single d6 of AP are the Zzap roll of a Wierdboy, and Tankbusta Bombs. Which are only base Str. 6.

**Praxiss**

ChocolateGork wrote:
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The OP is right. Dreadknights are not creatures. They are metal suits piloted by GKs. They are however, monsterous and therefore should have the MC rule

Damn so titans aren't monstrous?

To be fair, Super Heavy walkers use the same close combat rules as Gargantuan Creaures anyway. So they are actually more similar that MCs & Walkers.

**ChocolateGork**

Praxiss wrote:
ChocolateGork wrote:
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The OP is right. Dreadknights are not creatures. They are metal suits piloted by GKs. They are however, monsterous and therefore should have the MC rule

Damn so titans aren't monstrous?

To be fair, Super Heavy walkers use the same close combat rules as Gargantuan Creaures anyway. So they are actually more similar that MCs & Walkers.

True enough but what about defilers and soulgrinders?

**Jackmojo**

I'm liking DCCW dealing double wounds...perhaps also let them force invulnerable save re-rolls?

Either that or back to my original idea of dropping the MC rule entirely and keeping the 4 sub-rules separate and applying them as necessary (i.e. Carnifices get 2d6 vs vehicles and ignore armour, Daemon princes only ignore armour or somesuch)

Jack

**airsoftmanic**

I think taking something from WHFB might help. for every wound caused, add one extra hit, non-stackable

So its nowhere near blood talons (lol infinite wounds), but is still potent enough to make walkers abit more viable in CC.

I personally don't think there should be anything above toughness 5 in 40K (I think a demolisher cannon hitting a carnifex would turn it to paste) but that would make tyranid players cry, so I know it'll never happen.

**loota boy**

airsoftmanic wrote:I think taking something from WHFB might help. for every wound caused, add one extra hit, non-stackable

So its nowhere near blood talons (lol infinite wounds), but is still potent enough to make walkers abit more viable in CC.

I personally don't think there should be anything above toughness 5 in 40K (I think a demolisher cannon hitting a carnifex would turn it to paste) but that would make tyranid players cry, so I know it'll never happen.

And it would make plauge marines every bit as tough as a carnifex, or a wraithlord, which would be silly.