Author |
Message |
 |
|
 |
Advert
|
Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
- No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
- Times and dates in your local timezone.
- Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
- Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
- Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now. |
|
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 14:28:03
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Horrific Howling Banshee
Hemel Hempstead
|
Hear me out here chaps; I always had a problem with MC's units that to my mind are clearly walkers and not a living creature. To me a MC should be a living creature with flesh and blood eg Carnifex, Greater Daemon, and thus toughness, wounds etc. A walker is basically a robot or vehicle, made of metal, wraithbone etc, and thus has an armour value. Yes you could argue a Wraithlord is 'alive' to some degree but this is splitting hairs, it doesn't bleed, have flesh, muscles etc, and is beside my point.
My point is the Dreadknight is clearly what I would define as a walker, heck its just a warwalker with arms, a beefed up dread with a termie sized baby carrier on the front, yet GW made it an MC. Why was this? Because if it was a walker the MC 2d6 armour pen rules meant it would have been useless against its main opponent: Greater Daemons. Does anyone else think this proves MCs are too powerful against armour and GW know it, especially when you consider non walker vehicles are auto hit on the rear and most MCs have lots of attacks with rerolls? Maybe rending for MC attacks instead of 2d6 and power weapon would be a compromise? Could we see a change in armour rules next edition, any thoughts Dakka?
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 14:48:12
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
No, it isn't proof that anything is broken. It is GW experimenting on a cool new concept of a unit. Why must the dreadknight be another walker when they already have dreads and vendreads?
Everyone likes MC's and big things (well, most people at least). This is GW marketing to try to make more money. Check out this cool new shiny unit and buy! Every new codex is going to have one of these "types" of units.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 15:04:35
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Shunting Grey Knight Interceptor
|
I personally think the reason the DK's are MC's is mainly because think of the backstory of grey knights... before they re-joined the imperium they were within the warp, had hundreds of years with technology and warp-energy to develope new alloys and such.
I think the dreadknights are made from a dang near indestructible alloy and the enemy merely punches through the small hull that surrounds the marine within and kill him directly, laying the machine inert.
and on a side-note, they are attempting to balance the game slightly, here is how it works. MC > vehicles > infantry > MC
However, that is just one humble inquisitorial servants opinion. (there are always exceptions to this rule, like infantry taking equipment to deal with vehicles, or MC's having wide-spread attacks, or vehicles having enough weaponry to focus the MC down) but think of each unit as equipped without upgrades and that would be the general consensus on how things would work out (most of the time)
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/06 15:08:15
1500 pt grey knight termie army W: 1 L: 1 T: 1
2000 pt DraigoStrike Pally army W: 3 L: 1 T: 1
750 point Black Templar smashmouth army
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 15:09:48
Subject: Re:Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Hurr! Ogryn Bone 'Ead!
|
I agree that it is a bit op in that respect but think of it this way.
a lasgun cannot harm a walker but it can harm a mc so 30 or so guardsmen could in theory take down a mc but not a walker. food for though.
|
Son you can insult me, you can ambush me, you can even take away my weapons. But if you think im going to step one single pinky toe inside blue base with out my SHOTGUN... you must not know who you dealing with.
I said move...
and i said SHOTGUN...
yes I have your shotgun
no.. i mean SHOT...-GUN
what is this... you think im going to give you your shotgun back because you asked???
i said SHOTGUN.... SHOTGUN DAMMIT!!!
oh yeah shotgun... thats my que. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 15:20:52
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Fixture of Dakka
|
Besides, why must the "bad guys" (Eldar included) be the only ones to get to use MC's. I'm a Marine player and I WANT MY MCTV!
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 15:47:14
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
|
Indeed, to kill a Dreadknight you have to kill the pilot. Unfortunately for anyone trying to do this, he's got a 35 foot sized mechanised suit with guns the size of trucks pointing at you. You need to hurt him, and he's going to stop you. It makes sense that it's a tough model rather than a vehicle.
|
Codex: Grey Knights touched me in the bad place... |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/06 17:45:48
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Horrific Howling Banshee
Hemel Hempstead
|
Don't get me wrong; I'm all for cool new models and GK getting special stuff because of their status; I like the DK.
Maybe I'm looking at it too logically, I see a big metal robot and think walker, not monsterous creature.
However I also think they had no choice but to make it a MC, it would not have been able to take on Greater Daemons as a walker, its whole purpose as per the fluff.
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/06 17:47:39
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 07:33:28
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
I agree that the Dreadknight should be a walker. After all, it does make sense that you could destroy an arm and have it lose a weapon, or destroy a leg and have it immoblized. It doesnt bleed, it breaks and can be fixed by a techmarine.
As for MCs, MC are currently weaker than vehicles. The only claim MCs have for being tough is their armor save. If you take the armor save away (either from AP2 or lots of dice), their toughness is no barrier to injury. Vehicles can never be hurt by small arms on the other hand, and AV compared to toughness illustrates that t6 is as good as av10.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 21:53:34
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Member of the Malleus
|
so I am a HUGE GK fanatic and I totally agree the DK should be a walker. It makes sense with a live pilot and all, but its a machine.
NOW, what I wanna know is, they are assuming if the machine is destroyed, the pilot dies. how so? he is strapped to the front of it!
it SHOULD be a walker based on the fact that it is a piloted unit, and therefore, during a penetrating hit, the pilot should eject. thus putting a royally pissed off GK Termie on the ground.
in fact, I think I am going to treat my DK at my house, as a walker with elevated armor levels. maybe 1 up on a ven dread, but with the added bonus of having the marine piloting it able to hop out.
I haven[t even built the model yet, but its going to get some changes made. the whole baby carrier on the front is ridiculous. thats gotta be changed.
|
[url]www.newaydesigns.com
[/url] |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 22:40:07
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Lord of the Fleet
|
I wouldnt mind the Dreadknight being a iron clad with fortitude. Maybe even keep the invl save! Might make it more worthwhile for its points (and make the dreadnought CC weapons actually work  )
So now you'll have a tough as nails iron clad running around for the risk of getting one shotted, I think its a good trade off
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/07 22:41:03
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 22:53:10
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Member of a Lodge? I Can't Say
|
If DKs were walkers, they would be S10 with doomfists. They would still be as good at punching vehicles.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 23:05:19
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Hauptmann
In the belly of the whale.
|
The OP is right. Dreadknights are not creatures. They are metal suits piloted by GKs. They are however, monsterous and therefore should have the MC rule
|
kestril wrote:The game is only as fun as the people I play it with.
"War is as natural to a man as maternity is to a woman." |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/07 23:48:05
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Member of the Malleus
|
DeadlySquirrel wrote:The OP is right. Dreadknights are not creatures. They are metal suits piloted by GKs. They are however, monsterous and therefore should have the MC rule
by this definition, would the Great Squiggoth be considered a walker as well? should it not have an AV? you have to punch through its armor to hurt it.
true its a living creature, but its clad in armor and piloted (relatively) by the Orks on top.
actually that sounds like all the more reason the DK SHOULD be a walker and not an MC.
|
[url]www.newaydesigns.com
[/url] |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 01:43:22
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
Uhm...is everyone missing the actual questions here or is it just me?
To the OP, I do think the Monstrous Creature rule piles up too many bonuses under one umbrella, and doing away with MC and simply applying the appropriate other rules as needed would be preferable, not all MCs need to be good tank rippers, and not all need to not be independent characters...
Jack
|
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/07/08 01:43:55
The rules:
1) Style over Substance.
2) Attitude is Everything.
3) Always take it to the Edge.
4) Break the Rules. |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 02:43:14
Subject: Re:Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Mekboy Hammerin' Somethin'
|
If a dreadknight has gotten close enough to punch your tank in the butt, then you're doing it wrong.
MC's aren't broken. If anything, armor is too resilient. Hence the reason we see vehicle and mech spams and not MC spams (barring some Tyranid lists). But in all honesty, there are so many hard counters to a dreadknight. Sure, it has a 2+ armor save but it has a 5+ invul. It'll hardly ever get a cover save, so just blow it up with heavy weapons, like you would with most mcs. That or your can force it to make too many saves.
I think the monstrous creature rule is fine the way it is, one of the few rules that doesn't need tweaking.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 03:37:50
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Liche Priest Hierophant
|
Maybe MC is fine, but perhaps a scaled down version of it for those things that are currently MCs but shouldn't have all the MC benefits? (mostly the 2d6 armour pen). Something with the Power Weapons and 2d6 take the highest for Armour Pen, or more many-wound models that aren't MCs (many wounds being 4+)
Or give DCCWs 2d6 armour pen. I mean, is a big chitin claw really going to be better at going through armour than a fusion powered adamantine drill?
And Tyranids are the only army that can spam MCs. Nobody else has that many.
|
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
If yer an Ork, why dont ya WAAAGH!!
M.A.V.- if you liked ChromeHounds, drop by the site and give it a go. Or check out my M.A.V. Oneshots videos on YouTube! |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 03:41:14
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
|
Soulgrinders are vehicles, right? They look more like monsters to me than that Optimus Prime-looking mofo.
|
Paul Cornelius
Thundering Jove |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 04:41:53
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Lord of the Fleet
|
thunderingjove wrote:Soulgrinders are vehicles, right? They look more like monsters to me than that Optimus Prime-looking mofo.
Well soul grinder is a lot like the defiler
Plus who ever made the codex wanted to have at least one vehicle I bet
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 04:44:45
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
|
I won't take that bet; you're totally right. I don't understand why they didn't include the oldschoool daemon engines for HS in that codex.
|
Paul Cornelius
Thundering Jove |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 14:16:25
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
My question is this... would poision work on a dreadknight? The thing is as much metal as a dreadnaught, both have living pilots, ect. All walkers in the game in fact have living pilots. No walker is affected by poison. Except the dreadknight.
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 17:32:48
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
|
I don't really have a problem either way with the Dreadknight being a monstrous creature or a walker. There are arguments for both. However, it is a tricky unit; if you go into the game not really knowing the Grey Knights codex, and drop your boarding plank on your Ork trukk ready to murder this guy, you'll be unpleased to find that you can only do that trick to vehicles!
|
Paul Cornelius
Thundering Jove |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 17:51:55
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
Ye Olde North State
|
Well, while it was obvious that the NDK had to be a monsterous creature so that it could stand a chance against Great Daemons and princes and such, I don't think this means the monsterous rule is ooverpowered. What it does prove, though, is that the idea of monsterous creatures and walkers having titanic battles and going toe-to-toe isn't true. In any scenario, the walker gets his ass handed to him. I think that walkers just need a slight bonus versus monsterous creatures so that this stereotype could actually be true.
|
grendel083 wrote:"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 17:53:24
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
|
What would you suggest to make that happen?
|
Paul Cornelius
Thundering Jove |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 17:57:56
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
Ye Olde North State
|
thunderingjove wrote:What would you suggest to make that happen?
Darn, guess I sorta put my foot in my mouth there.. Well, lets see. We could either make the walkers get crazy bonuses against MC, or make them more survivable. I favor the 2nd option more, because if we just made the two to be able to utterly destroy each other, then all that would matter is who goes first. Which would be yet anouther smack in the face to the carnifex, and really, lets give that guy a break. But to make the walkers more survivable against MC, but nothing else is difficult. I'll playtest several ideas with the guys tonight and let you know which ones work out best.
|
grendel083 wrote:"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 18:06:40
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
|
What the average point value of the walker versus the monstrous creature?
|
Paul Cornelius
Thundering Jove |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 18:09:56
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Battlewagon Driver with Charged Engine
Ye Olde North State
|
Hmm.. you have a point there. Most walkers cost 100-200 pts, excluding squadron things like kans. and the 200 is mostly for venerable stuff. Monsterous creatures always cost like 150-250 or maybe even 300. So maybe Walkers don't really require too much of a bonus.
|
grendel083 wrote:"Dis is Oddboy to BigBird, come in over."
"BigBird 'ere, go ahead, over."
"WAAAAAAAAAGGGHHHH!!!! over"
"Copy 'dat, WAAAAAAAGGGHHH!!! DAKKADAKKA!!... over" |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 18:17:17
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets
|
Walkers do pretty well versus horde too, right, even with a power klaw or a rending weapon? Not so much the case with monstrous creatures, especially with poisonous weapons.
|
Paul Cornelius
Thundering Jove |
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 18:26:50
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Lord of the Fleet
|
Well +S8 and melta weapons tend to wreck most walkers pretty well in CC but if those arent in there then walkers can tie up units quite well. AV13 is immune to normal MEQ attacks compared to the extremely rare T8
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 19:32:51
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Longtime Dakkanaut
|
loota boy wrote:thunderingjove wrote:What would you suggest to make that happen?
Darn, guess I sorta put my foot in my mouth there.. Well, lets see. We could either make the walkers get crazy bonuses against MC, or make them more survivable. I favor the 2nd option more, because if we just made the two to be able to utterly destroy each other, then all that would matter is who goes first. Which would be yet anouther smack in the face to the carnifex, and really, lets give that guy a break. But to make the walkers more survivable against MC, but nothing else is difficult. I'll playtest several ideas with the guys tonight and let you know which ones work out best.
Walkers are powerful enough. Kanz are absurdly undercosted and GK Dread spam is also pretty ludicrous.
|
|
|
 |
 |
![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2011/07/08 20:02:20
Subject: Dreadknight proof that MC AV bonus is broken?
|
 |
Liche Priest Hierophant
|
And honestly, MC vs. Walker isn't as overbalanced as you might think, since yeah, the MC is almost always going to be penning with most of its attacks, but it still only rolls 1d6 unmodified for the effect, and a Walker, with a DCCW (or four) will be ignoring armour and wounding on a 2+ almost all the time.
I actually had an Apoc game, once, where a Carni-brood Apoc formation (let them do some sort of crazy acid spit thing) 9 strong munched through a Battlewagon. I had a 9 strong Dredd Mob, and some of them only had the 2 basic DCCWs. I got the assault, and I completely decimated them with sheer volume of wounds. If they'd gone first, they'd have munched me. Pretty even.
The big thing is that MCs and Walkers aren't 'even', not when facing each other, but when facing other things. MCs are murder against vehicles. Walkers are murder against Infantry. Why? Shouldn't the living, breathing beast of battle with fifteen legs and poisoned spines be more capable against a bunch of lightly armoured dudes with flashlights, and a walking behemoth of iron and steel, armed with adamant saws and hydraulic shears should be able to rip through even the toughest of armour with ease.
Part of the issue is GW's adamant refusal to allow anything to go above 10. Because, see, 2d6 armour pen for a living creature wouldn't seem so unfair to us Walkies if our DCCWs weren't just slightly faster Infantry weapons (lets face it, they're Powerfists that strike at init. Zagstruck can do the same thing as a Deffdredd. Why?), but were, like, Strength 12 Power weapons. Or just sheer doubled strength, and then the walker could have Str. 6 or something. And then Monstrous Creatures could have higher Toughnesses, while still keeping a definite striation in that certain MCs would be tougher than others.
|
GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.
If yer an Ork, why dont ya WAAAGH!!
M.A.V.- if you liked ChromeHounds, drop by the site and give it a go. Or check out my M.A.V. Oneshots videos on YouTube! |
|
 |
 |
|