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Plus, pulse rifle FW hopping out of a D-fish would be S.O.L. if there were any nearby enemies. I think making them Rapid Fire with the 2x shot at 15" (Or maybe more than that...) would be sufficient, along with adding the optional Tactic of the Heavy 2 if needed.
The carbine still seems to be underpowered even in our Fairy-Land rules, so I personally think the FW version should keep Rending (Definitely not for the drones though )

Maybe there could be a way to upgrade the rifles with a bi-pod, making them Heavy 2. I think the carbine should be either Assault 2 or Assault 1 Rending. Imagine Devilfishing a whole squad of them 18'' to anything- That anything will die to 24 S5 Rending shots.

I probably sound like a broken record, but I prefer the idea of an army-wide Tactic for the Heavy 2 instead. That way, you have some tactical flexibility in case stuff goes to crap.
Also, 24 rending shots will become 12 hits, so 2 rending wounds and 8 regular ones. It would cause the pin test on marines, but wouldn't eat them alive (This is of course assuming no markerlights though...)

Then you could equip your whole army with bi-pods. And I guess you are right about the rending- I'll concede that point.

I dunno. With markerlights to get BS5, you'll eat an entire tac marine squad if the dice gods feel like obeying the laws of averages. The balance is the 18" range; If you roll crap, you're within assault and omnomnom range for whatever you shot at. Plus, this would allow a strike team of FW with carbines to possibly break vehicles (2 possible glances on up to Arm 14...).

And as for the bi-pods, I guess that would be a bit more Tau-like than IG-esque orders, and it would be tactically ok if using the bipod was optional (declared in the movement phase or something). Man, now I'm really tempted to convert some of my ten-bajillion FW to Shadow Warriors...

yamgrenade wrote:But then you have as much use for rifles as we do for carbines now...Tau that have no mobility are doomed to fail. I see it every game when they try to dig in, because all that happens is they get rushed and killed.

The shadow caste is just cool and badly needed. Don't stress out about them tooooo much

Otherwise leave the rifle as is and up the carbine ROF to 2. The failing of the carbine is that pinning sounds good and overpowering with ROF 2 but with the preponderance of fearless units, you really have a hard time pinning anything and when they are packing LD 9 or 10, we are talking 1 in 12 that you are going to get a pin result. As far as I am concerned, drop pinning even though it makes sense fluff wise and give them a ROF of 2. That actually puts a choice in front of a tau, reach out and touch at 30" if you can go stationary or 18" ROF 2 intead of rapid fire 12" ROF 2.

The core of the tau problem is markerlights are your ace-in-the-hole however the codex as written makes them too rare. And then you have the best concentration of fire being 26 shots at 12" it just isn't going to do enough to prevent assaults. I mean 13 hits, 8 wounds converts into 3 dead marines. Drop a markerlight and we go to 20 hits and 5 dead marines. Drop two markerlights and we are talking 23 hits and perhaps 6 dead marines. That is for tau firewarriors with rifles at 12" so you are talking 4 to 7 surviving marines that are going to charge your firewarriors. Not exactly a winning proposition. It all sounds good except good luck at getting 2 markerlights on a target when you are talking 30 points to put a markerlight drone or +20 points to arm a squad leader with a markerlight. That leaves pathfinders as the only cheap option and they are going to be out-costed by virtue of the enemy targeting them and the fact that you have to invest in a devilfish for them automatically.

darkPrince010 wrote:...Man, now I'm really tempted to convert some of my ten-bajillion FW to Shadow Warriors...

Haha, I'm already working on it. I'll show some pics when I am done

DAaddict wrote:

yamgrenade wrote:But then you have as much use for rifles as we do for carbines now...Tau that have no mobility are doomed to fail. I see it every game when they try to dig in, because all that happens is they get rushed and killed.

The shadow caste is just cool and badly needed. Don't stress out about them tooooo much

Otherwise leave the rifle as is and up the carbine ROF to 2. The failing of the carbine is that pinning sounds good and overpowering with ROF 2 but with the preponderance of fearless units, you really have a hard time pinning anything and when they are packing LD 9 or 10, we are talking 1 in 12 that you are going to get a pin result. As far as I am concerned, drop pinning even though it makes sense fluff wise and give them a ROF of 2. That actually puts a choice in front of a tau, reach out and touch at 30" if you can go stationary or 18" ROF 2 intead of rapid fire 12" ROF 2.

The core of the tau problem is markerlights are your ace-in-the-hole however the codex as written makes them too rare. And then you have the best concentration of fire being 26 shots at 12" it just isn't going to do enough to prevent assaults. I mean 13 hits, 8 wounds converts into 3 dead marines. Drop a markerlight and we go to 20 hits and 5 dead marines. Drop two markerlights and we are talking 23 hits and perhaps 6 dead marines. That is for tau firewarriors with rifles at 12" so you are talking 4 to 7 surviving marines that are going to charge your firewarriors. Not exactly a winning proposition. It all sounds good except good luck at getting 2 markerlights on a target when you are talking 30 points to put a markerlight drone or +20 points to arm a squad leader with a markerlight. That leaves pathfinders as the only cheap option and they are going to be out-costed by virtue of the enemy targeting them and the fact that you have to invest in a devilfish for them automatically.

I think Assault 2 18" Rending Carbines are good. Rifles should be Assault 2 or Rapid Fire.

Markerlights should be assault. And cheaper

Yeah, either markerlights need to be assault, or the mandatory D-fish needs to be removed.

I personally like the idea of Assault 2 pulse rifles and the Assault 1 or 2 Rending carbines. Otherwise, rifles and carbines are only seperated by a range difference of 6" for an equal tradeoff ("...exchange for a carbine at no cost...").
Plus, I would really beg for the ability to buy one of Kilcrazy's ideas for a drone: Point Defense Drone (Essentially acts like a Flechette Discharger). Imagine that: Getting 2 of those for a front-line carbine FW squad. Suddenly, your opponnent actually has to tactically weigh the decision to charge you (and wipe the squad) at the cost of possible a couple of units.

I do agree, all the non-pathfinder options for markerlights are too damn expensive (Marker Drones should be 15-20 pts, not freaking 30), especially when you factor in the mandatory 10 pts for upgrading to an 'ui in FW squads to simply get access to the drones/markerlights/bonding knives (Why can't they get the 5pt team leader like the suits? Whyyyyy? )

Its just 5 pts...

Nope, upgrading to a Shas'ui for FW is 10 pts, as is the upgrade for Pathfinders for an 'ui too. meaning it'll be 15 points to get a bonding knife or target lock or whatever. Suits can get it for 5, but iirc, FW have to go directly to 'ui, without passing go or collecting $200. :(

darkPrince010 wrote:Hmm. Perhaps have Stand and Shoot and the Evade, Evade! be default tactics, and have the 2x shot, the +1 cover save, and/or the Rain of Fire be optional additional purchases for the army or commander? Just a thought.

As for the melee unit, while it doesn't fit the fluff if it was a regular caste, the fluff of it being from samples lost on a distant jungle and Tau staying in a primitive, tight-spaces jungle seem like they'd shift their tactics to combat more suited to the area. As for the army and overall crunch, it's still just as fragile as a standard FW squad, and you can only have 1, possibly 2 of the squads total in the army, preventing the entire force from being entirely these new melee troops.

Yes, however the point I want to put forward is that many Tau players chose Tau because they have no melee.

If players want a faction that is good at melee there is plenty of choice. There are a dozen other factions in the game which can all built with melee in mind. Even IG have got knife fighter conscripts, Rough Riders and power weapons for their officers.

Tau players want an army that is bad at melee but offers options for clever tactics to avoid it.

All of the above is true. However, the current gun-to-a-knife-fight emphasis in WH40K right now makes this a needed option.

This isn't to give Tau a dedicated ass-kicker in CC, but to give a bait-and-switch unit to draw some fire. Sorta like a weaker Kroot meatshield, but harder to hit, and approximately as effective in CC (Can finish off a weakened squad, but won't gobble them up all on it's lonesome).

Problem is, the current Tau codex is not that flexible in it's build options as compared to the other codexes, with the exception of Necrons. The only 2 main repeat-tournament lists I've heard of are suit spam or Kroot spam, and possibly the Positional Relay Shenanigans (if you consider that a real list). In fact, the limit of 2 of these squads max (if you include one with the Ethereal) means you can't build a melee army around this without resorting to Kroot spam. It just offers an alternative to Kroot for a fire magnet to give the other Tau elements time to shoot

darkPrince010 wrote:

@Sabrx: Maybe, but assuming you're on a 4'x6' board, the Scout move allows you to position them wherever you need them to shoot on the board with their 36" gun. Infiltrate would just put them unnecessarily close to squads that could (and would) eat them for breakfast

You assume Pathfinders will be placed within over 18" of enemy units.

Think again.

They can be place ANYWHERE as long as they aren't within TLOS (12") or in TLOS (18"). So I can place them far back 36" on top of a three story building. There's only so much you can do with scout move on foot.

Kilkrazy wrote:
Tau players want an army that is bad at melee but offers options for clever tactics to avoid it.

.

Or to be as brutal in shooting as all those CC armies are in melee.... Personally, I'm tired of hearing people complain about how 30" range and S5 guns are so great when it only takes a couple of MEQs to off an entire squad.

Where Tau need the most help:
Anti-Horde
Anti-MEQ
CC

KK touched on it a page back, there's no reason Tau can't have options to either do something like stand and shoot or like Evade! Evade! or even something else. They could be purchasable tactics army-wide or for individual squads or even types of units (pathfinders get evade evade and firewarrios get stand and shoot).

As for being a shooting army, they need to be better at it. That means either higher volume of fire (IG blobs) or quality of fire (lower AP on basic weapon). MEQ players might cry but a pulse rifle that's AP3 would ensure that some damage is done as they cross the field. Have the weapons able to shoot on variable frequencies or something, higher AP means lower S and vice versa. The Plasma Rifle starts out as S5 AP5 and can be modified each turn S4 AP4 S3 AP 3, etc. You could even say that a if a gun is modified, it's heavy 1 that turn. I'd take this over armywide BS4 as it would make those MEQs hesitate and actually maneuver instead of just steamrolling my firewarriors. They still get munched in combat but less would make it across the field.

I'm with most of you in that there needs to be something different that represents how the Tau do things instead of being MEQ or GEQ etc.

Sorry I'm late to the convo, but in which FAQ were the kroot changes already made? I have looked around and can't find them.

Man, I like the idea of modulating the phase variance!
Plus, bumping it to S6 Ap6 or S7 Ap- (Maybe?) would allow for an anti-armor option. 12 S7 shots into the front of a Rhino would pop it just as easily as 6 TL missiles (S7 Ap4) or a railgun, and allow for the ability to take on bigger tanks, while still not touching the hallowed Av14 the SM treasure so dearly, or IDing said space marine heroic types. Plus, keeping it a single shot means you can still biff and end up with a tank barreling towards you, angry and covered in smoking plasma burns...

As for the 3 main points, I agree that we need anti-MEQ, but I think that with the proper application of markerlights to drop saves, punching through hordes isn't too bad. As for CC, Tau just need better screens, not better CC units. Drone Squadrons would be perfect if they weren't eating up a Fast Attack slot (Non-Scoring Troops would be perfect)

I think the strap modifier would be too overpowered. With a S3 AP3 gun, they're essentially Stormtrooper-level powerful, with far more range, not to mention the fact they have the option to become insanely powerful against vehicles (10 strenght 7 shots?) and the entire thing is too complex for a basic trooper.


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I think the strap modifier would be too overpowered. With a S3 AP3 gun, they're essentially Stormtrooper-level powerful, with far more range, not to mention the fact they have the option to become insanely powerful against vehicles (10 strenght 7 shots?) and the entire thing is too complex for a basic trooper.

The S6Ap6 and S7 were more following the Fridge Logic for the lulz.

However, Tau have no non-suit reliable MEQ killers. Period. And they need this badly, since the current "Rhino Carpool" SM armies mean Tau are forced to dedicate at least one if not several suits to dedicated anti-armor, weakening the ability to deal with the crunchy models inside.
Even a Fireknife or Burning Eye unit can barely hold the line vs a vanilla tac squad, and that's at 12" or less. All the Tau have to deal with marines is overwhelming their saves, which is not what Tau were designed to do (If you wanted that, play IG with their flashlights).
True, the Ap3 would be perfect for killing MEQ, but then they're wounding on 5+ instead of 3+ (12 ranged shots from a squad, no markerlights, would be 2 dead MEQs. With BS5 from markerlights, it'd be 3 or 4).

Also, Firewarriors are still fragile little buggers, and can get templated to kingdom come should you have pie plates lying around. You will kill at least 50% of them when you shoot, regardless of if they're in cover or in the open but getting their regualr 4+ save. The entire army is suppossed to be a shooty glass cannon, the dakka balance to DE on the other end of the spectrum.
ATM, however, they're a glass watergun, and rely on a very few number of vaguely-viable lists to stay afloat from being Necron-level outdated. Tau should have dozens of viable Torunament-level lists, just like SM, DE, Orks, IG, etc, not 3 or 4 and a blatant exploitation of a single item of wargear.

How about ubgrading Ion Cannons to Heavy 5 and rending. Make it an option for Broadsides, and this would offer some reliable, long range anti-MEQ. In addition, adding TL Plasma Cannon turrets as an option for HH would help out a lot.


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I'm still not entirely convinced on the variable Str/AP. It seems fair enough, but it's the kind of rule you'd expect on SCs-it doesn't fit in with the Tau's theme of specialization.

True. Possibly make it a Shas'ui-only upgrade or something. As to why Ion cannons aren't Heavy 5 already is beyond me, although a pair of them on a Broadside might be a bit unwieldy

I personally think Pirahnas, D-fish, H-heads, and skyrays should all pick their secondary weapons from the suit system (only 1 system for pirahnas and D-fish, 2 for the others), with the caveat that both must be the same (So a single or TL version of a gun, but can't mix and match).

There does need to be some boost to FW though, because there is literally no reason atm to take them, since everything they can do can be done better by suits. Some clamor for BS4, but I think a change to make the rifles better would help.

darkPrince010 wrote:True. Possibly make it a Shas'ui-only upgrade or something. As to why Ion cannons aren't Heavy 5 already is beyond me, although a pair of them on a Broadside might be a bit unwieldy

I personally think Pirahnas, D-fish, H-heads, and skyrays should all pick their secondary weapons from the suit system (only 1 system for pirahnas and D-fish, 2 for the others), with the caveat that both must be the same (So a single or TL version of a gun, but can't mix and match).

There does need to be some boost to FW though, because there is literally no reason atm to take them, since everything they can do can be done better by suits. Some clamor for BS4, but I think a change to make the rifles better would help.

Burst cannon ROF 4 - this is to make stealth suits at least desirable and perhaps even forbid an XV8 with one.
The rifle needs ROF 2 I would like a heavy 30"/ rapid fire. Think of it, for less points a SW can field a long fang squad that puts out 15 S5 shots to 36" for less than a tau pays to field 12 FW with rifles. Add to that BS 4 vs 3, T4 vs 3, AV 3+ vs 4+ not to mention a SW can survive if not thrive in CC.
The carbine needs ROF 2 or it will never be played. Given the choice between stationary 30" or mobile 18" fire there might be builds that carbines make sence but with a ROF of 1 it will never get played.

Markerlights need to be cheaper and more pervasive. Make it a free buy for a shas'ui. Make drones cost the same no matter what. Who cares if it provides a 4++ save, TL carbine fire or a markerlight. Markerlights are only impressive when something ELSE fires at the target. It also eliminates the hue and cry for BS 4 for FW. They shouldn't have that but making markerlights either more abundant or persistent. (A set modifier for markerlights that hit a target rather than flexible spending of markerlights.)
Make seeker missiles renewable. 10 pts for a 1 shot S8 Ap3 missile is worthless unless it also auto precludes cover saves.

@darkprince
I wasn't really thinking of it going up, just as a more focused shot that affects armor more than skin. Just a thought.

@DAaddict
We don't really need BC's to be rof 4 (not that I'd complain if they were), that'd make them too like heavy bolters with a shorter range. They just need the option of boosted long-barrel burst canons from FW (36" S5 AP5 Assault 3).

Agree that something needs to be done with markerlights. Possibly a combination of markerlights and my idea above, lower AP for each markerlight used with lowest being 3 maybe.

DAaddict wrote:[ 10 pts for a 1 shot S8 Ap3 missile is worthless unless it also auto precludes cover saves.

QFT. I don't play SM, so I wasn't aware of the disparity between a FW squad and Long Fangs. I do like the standardization of drone costs, which will make it more even (especially with the better carbine). I still feel the Carbine needs Rending, because otherwise the 24 shots a 12-man FW team will put into it will bounce off a SM squad (W/ Markerlights: 5-6 dead MEQs. W/out: 3-4. With Rending and w/out lights: 4-5. W/ Rending and lights: 7-8). Even with 75% of a SM squad gone, they can still shoot up (and assault/wipe) a FW squad, so they won't be a be-all, end-all unit.

I personally like Killcrazy's Reload idea (Roll 1d6, if it's less than the # of seekers on the vehicle, Skyray in this case, it reloads 1 missile), at least for the Skyray. Just drop the pts for the regular ones (To 5 or whatever it is for Hunter-Killer missiles)


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@agnosto: I don't think the markerlights should drop an armor save, but the Tau do need a way to pop MEQs. Maybe have the rifle have only 2 settings: Charged (Heavy 1, 30", S3 Ap3) or Regular (30" Assault 2 S5 Ap5)?

Vespids are meant to be an anti-MEq unit but unfortunately GW buggered up the stats and points and made them too crappy to use.

Crisis suits would be a better anti-MEq unit if you could have more of them. That's why I propose making Crisis units (and Broadsides) 1-4 instead of 1-3. It's also more fluffy, as Tau count in base 8.


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Sniper Drone Teams are also meant to be anti-MEq but again, GW cocked them up by making them Heavy, and too expensive because the whole team can be killed by killing the team leader.

Yeah. I would love if the vespids had a template instead of 12" gun (Keeping them as a fragile but potent unit they were intended to be), and the Sniper teams really need to be able to take regular drones as well, if for nothing more than ablative wounds.

Plus, I forgot about the base 8 thing. That would really help, as you could throw in a single drone and not panic (according to current rules) if he was popped, as oppossed to the mad sprint for the board edge as soon as the robot bites it.

Snipers could also be made a troops choice, and taht would be useful. Vespids should get either better weaponry or more survivability.

Also, I think I will be making a thread about the shadow caste. will be up soon.

Cool. For modeling or rules or both? Either way, I'm interested

I botched the model But I'll make another one soon. It'll focus on rules and fluff right now.

Cool. I'll talk to some of the guys at my club, and see if they'll agree to let me give it a shot (Probably not though. They're die-hards when it comes to RAW and don't like fan-made stuff very much )

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/384133.page#3091291

Link there. Rules should be pretty fair.

As for your friends, thats a shame. See if there is anyone who will test it with you in a friendly match up.