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Hi everyone, this is Bobby, the GK player in this game. Thank you all for commenting and of course, special thanks to jy2 for the game and great report!

My thoughts on the battle:

I am not sure why JY2 deployed to one side of the board rather than the middle. This allowed for the Stormravens to fire a lot of missiles and get away with only ~2/5 of the Tyranid army shooting back at them. My target priority was definitely wrong, I underestimated the Swarmlord, though to be fare the second Dreadknight had a chance to instantly kill it but failed to land a single wound against it! Next time it will have to be Draigo vs. Swarmlord in hand to hand!



Another comment I want to make is that the report shows the GK force as being organised and comfortably leading in kill points throughout the game, but nothing could have been further from the truth. Just look at the image above. I completely panicked and ended up sending everything forward on a blind/enraged charge which, with a lot of dice help, worked! It really should have been a Tyranid victory.

I was relived the JY2 brought a test army as well, otherwise it would have been a pure slaughter! I wanted to know:

1) How do 3 Stormravens behave and is it comparable to the Damonhunter x3 LRs or x2LR+1Dread?
2) Can 1-man Paladin units be useful for anything?
3) Capabilities of a 7man terminator squad as a solid troop choice?
4) Feasibility of using a inquisitorial troops with GKs.
5) Overall usefulness of the Librarian
6) Proper equipment for a Dreadknight

1. Overall I need to do a lot more testing but I am currently happy with the SRs, and only beginning to learn how to properly deploy them. Unfortunately, they can't tank shock, so cutting off reinforcements while the GKs deal with a squad or two is not so easily done as before.

2. Yes. It may not be obvious from the report, but the Swarmlord going out of his way to kill the 2 paladins (for 2 killpoints) is the only thing that allowed me to charge into his forces. We played a "what if" 1 more turn in the game and the Swarmlord, once re-positioned back towards the GK troops would have equalized the score!

3. No! Terminators, without fearless and the old shrouding are out.

4. No, every single game the two armies get separated and fall apart.

5. None. I did a mental tally of how many times the Librarian has cast, to a net positive effect anything else other than shrouding and hammerhands!? Summoning? This game, for example, I summoned my purifiers on a hill (great, they can shoot at the same target they would have shot at anyways) only to get them stuck on said hill for the rest of the game! My other games have not been any different. I can live without a 3+ cover save.

6. In this game, the DKs hugged and teleported around the SRs for nearly the entire game! In the following few test games that I did, they pretty much did the same, until it was time to attack. Why not just deepstrike them then next to the SRs and save 150 points from the two? I am going to be testing bare, 130 point DKs for a while (so far it was a total failure in one and an epic success in a second game).

Currently, the GK-Purifier lists seem to be getting better and better refined, but I will continue to push to create a non-Crowe, capable GK army!

I really like it when jv2's opponents take the troubel to comment. Thanks. It always makes the report even more interesting.

I'd always run paladins instead of terminators if possible. They're jst so much more durable and the Librarian's pwoers add to their effectiveness and durability. I had a brief experiment with terminators instead and they stank -- they just can't take the hits in the same way. They shoot better and fight harder too. 5 paladins, 2 psycannon, a stave and 2 falchions (I havered about these instead of halberds but actually, internet opinion to the contrary, the extra attack is actually pretty useful) is 345 pts. Not much more than your 7 terminators. I'd recommend them as an alternative that can use the same models.

I'm glad to see someone using 3 'ravens and liking them. I've been leaning to 1 or 2 'ravens and a Crusader for my paladin army but my initial concept was 3 'ravens, so it's pleasing to see someone flying in the face of the anti-'raven punditry and doing well.

I've got to disagree with your evaluation of the Librarian thought. He needs 4 (perhaps 5) powers and ideally a stave. The powers are Might of Titan (for wrecking vehicles), Quicksilver (for I 10 on your assault), Sanctuary (to disrupt enemy assaults -- this is a great power) and The Shrouding. Warp Rift is the optional power, which is a handy close range shooting against low-mid Initiative enemies and vehicles. I find it of use in around 1/2 - 3/4 of the games I play. The stave helps him tremendously in combat.

Artemo wrote:

I'm glad to see someone using 3 'ravens and liking them. I've been leaning to 1 or 2 'ravens and a Crusader for my paladin army but my initial concept was 3 'ravens, so it's pleasing to see someone flying in the face of the anti-'raven punditry and doing well.

There is an anti-raven punditry!? Other than the fact that they are extremely expensive I can't see how anyone can possibly be against using them!

Artemo wrote:
I've got to disagree with your evaluation of the Librarian thought. He needs 4 (perhaps 5) powers and ideally a stave. The powers are Might of Titan (for wrecking vehicles), Quicksilver (for I 10 on your assault), Sanctuary (to disrupt enemy assaults -- this is a great power) and The Shrouding. Warp Rift is the optional power, which is a handy close range shooting against low-mid Initiative enemies and vehicles. I find it of use in around 1/2 - 3/4 of the games I play. The stave helps him tremendously in combat.

I am going here strictly from experience, my Librarian has failed me:

a) Might of Titan: I thought this was one psy-power to end all GK vehicle problems. The only time, and I do mean the only time I have ever used it against vehicles (ironically another JY2 unit) the librarian failed his leadership test (good thing it was before the FAQ and I could cast it twice)! What army runs around with S10 hammer for 0-10points, oh and almost all of them are mastercraftable! Now that Hammerhands stacks, the extra +1S against non-vehicle targets can be readily procured! Note, I do think however (not sure) that you can make Dreadknights and Banishers roll 3D6 on armor pen, and it would be cool to see the opponents face!

b) Quicksilver: If you get a squad of paladins with falchions and a banner that would be 5 attacks on the charge, each. Throw the unit in a Crusader and we are looking at: 5*8=40 I10, S6 power weapon attacks. Not too bad, reminds me of the Black Templar Deathstar, only much tougher! Other than that, the only other time where I could think that you would need I10 is against genestealers!

c) Sanctuary: This power is awesome! It never, ever fails to kill 100s of points worth of enemy models. Coteaz and/or Librarian are really lucky to have it! That being said, unless the GK have been given counter attack we now loose 1 attack for not being the ones that are charging forward! Clever use of terrain and wrecked vehicles can often, at least partially reproduce the effect.

d) Shrouding: No librarian has died as many times trying to cast shrouding as mine! That being said, what does the new shrouding do (now that you mention it, I have never done the math for it...) ... O.O hmmm, ok, shrouding is worth it! Unless I am making a mistake it makes an armor 12 vehicle 2.25 times less likely to be penetrated by a twin linked BS4 las cannon, railgun, or psy-dread! Seems really high, has anyone else done the math on this?

e) Warp Rift: 0% success. One time I even hit 2 Tyranid Spores with their Initiative 2 and I couldn't remove either one from play!

Now, that being said, enter psy-hoods, runes of warding, and shadows of the warp (and who knows what else that I am yet to encounter)!

Last but not least, what I dislike about the Librarian is that everything has to be really close to him for the powers to work! It gives you a force multiplier, but reduces your strategic options considerably!

(Can someone please check on the shrouding math, it just seems too good, technically it should make your vehicle only 17% more likely to survive IF it has cover o.O!)

A) yes, stacking two hammerhands (librarians and squads) gives S6. But that won't bother AV12 much and AV13 not at all. With Might of Titan, all vehicles tremble. Now granted the hammer has S10 and so all tremble anyway but he hits late in the day, it's more fun to wreck dreadnoughts at I10 than suffer their power weapon attacks at I4 before replying at I1. Which brings me to

B) Quicksilver. If you take halberds then this can be seen as a luxury (but again, it's nice to get off all your attacks before any high I special characters can do theirs and also if you run a paladin squad, you'll probably only run two halberds in that, leaving two other weapons at I4. For a 5pt power, boosting them earlier is worth it in my experience (and it means you can take perhaps falchions instead of halberds, though halberds are still useful if you get assaulted. Bringing me to

C) sanctuary is indeed the Grey Knights JotWW. Yes, you can use cover (sometimes) to similar effect. But this works even if you have an assaulted model in the open and often throws multi-assaults (which are common against Paladins, I find) into piecemeal dissaray. One trounces the squad or two that made it into combat and assaults those that didn't in one's own turn (with Might and Quicksilver).

D) shrouding basically gives a 3+ cover save instead of a 4+.

Let's suppose 18 BS4 S8 shots at a flat out 'raven. 2/3 hit, 1/3 penetrate, 1/2 save. 12 hits. 6 penetrations. 3 saves. 3 actual penetrating hits.

Now make it Shrouded. Still 12 hits. 6 penetrations. 4 saves. 2 actual hits.

Of course with hoods, etc, if you have a 'raven, a volley of Mindstrike missiles, inducing up to 4 perils of the Warp, are a pretty good answer.

I just find that without a Librarian, everything's that bit more vulnerable to shooting and melee. Watching an opponent's face fall as yet another assault fails to Sanctuary is priceless really. He's at his best in a Paladin Squad (ideally with Draigo too). I probably wouldn't bother with a Librarian in a Crowe list (because Purifiers tend to want to get units into contact and they often don't really have space for two HQs below 2500 pts) and again I might not bother in a mixed list (though a list lead by two Librarians -- Shrouding hooded? Try again... -- could be interesting).

Because Coteaz has Sanctuary, I think he's a decent Librarian substitute and if he brings along a single squad of Crusaders/Death Cultists, that's a cheap assault unit that can substitute for Paladins in that sense (though I'd not deploy Coteaz with the Weakling squad. obviously).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Actually to take the specific example you asked for of TL BS4 lascannon against AV12.

TL BS4 hits 8/9 of the time. 1/2 penetrate. 1/2 save with straight 4+ cover/flat out. So 2/9 actual penetrations. Or 6/27

With 3+ Shrouding cover/flat out, We have 8/9 x 1/2 x 1/3. Or 4/27.

You can see in both cases, Shrouding adds 50% to Durability.

Thank you, Bobby, for sharing your views on the game. Ok, here's my....


POST-GAME ANALYSIS:

Grey Knights:
See comments above (the first post of p.2).


Tyranids:
When the new Grey Knight codex came out, many people thought that tyranids, just like daemons, got screwed. The knights have force weapons to kill our TMC's, psyfleman dreads to insta-gib our warriors and other multi-wound infantry and Cleansing Flame to burn away our hordes. Then if nids were to play all-reserves, the knights have an answer to that as well with Warp Quake.

My opinion was that nids, just like daemons, could still compete. It's definitely a challenge, just like with Dark Eldar, because the new Grey Knights codex is so strong, but it's definitely do-able. You just need to change your strategy somewhat. With all the advantages the grey knights have in assault, I honestly believe that assault nids is not the way to go. You're playing into the strengths of the knights, rushing into their I6 force weapons, 2++ invuln's, force weapons that automatically insta-kill thanks to banners, psychic powers that will kill off half your horde before they even get a chance to fight and units that are arguably even scarier in assault than nob bikers, thunderwolf cavalry or assault terminators (they're right up there with those units at the very least).

And if you don't assault them, the grey knights will just shoot you down. While they have great assault capabilities, what's often under-estimated is their shooting. They may lack the AP 1/2 weaponry of other MEQ armies but man, can they shoot!

But it's not just the Grey Knights. Dark Eldar, MSU-armies, IG...all the good armies/builds are shooty builds. My solution? Fight fire with fire. I believe that shooty nids or fast nids are the best ways to handle these type of armies. People often don't realize how important the movement and shooting phase is when playing nids. They perceive tyranids - with their genestealers, tyrants, warriors, carnifexes and trygons - to be mostly an assault army. That is simply not true, at least not anymore nowadays. In order to compete, the new nids must take into consideration all 3 aspects of the game and not just the assault phase. If you can control the movement phase, either with speed or infiltrating stealers, then you've already got a big advantage in objectives-based missions. And if you can shoot, then you can disrupt your opponent's game and force them to have to come to you, where your counter-assault elements would be waiting.

Honestly, I started off playing assault nids when the new codex first came out, prefering 2 or even 3 trygons. Since then, I've migrated to a more shooty-centric tyranid build with good counter-assault (the Swarmlord or dakkarant with Old Adversary and some genestealers). Mobility is still somewhat of an issue but at least with this build, I can hang with the shooty-MSU builds out there.

In my game against Bobby's knights, I felt confident that my nids could compete. We actually surprised each other. He was thinking that I would be bringing my Crowe-purifier list and I, well, let's just say I didn't expect his super-fast trip-raven army. I actually had a big concern here. If he was to take out my Swarmlord with his mindstrike missiles, then my guys would be vulnerable to his assault. While my raveners could probably take on his dreadknights, they really don't stand up to I6 purifiers with force weapons. His dreadknights, as long as they avoid my Swarmlord and raveners (and tarpitting termagants!) would overcome my other TMC's and shooty units. Then there's his purgation squad. 4 incinerators is no joke and can take out my hive guards and raveners. But as long as the Swarmlord lived, I knew that he would have to play very cautiously around my army and that I could play more aggressively.

Despite the lopsided score at the end, the game was much tighter than it appeared. Though I couldn't take down his stormravens, I was hammering his units with my shooting, all the while creeping closer to his forces. Bobby was really intimidated at first and at times felt discouraged. But when all seemed lost, he had his moment of f*ck-it-I'm-going-to-take-the-fight-to-the-enemy-or-die-trying. Then his luck turned around and with some favorable dice rolls, his dreadknight just plowed through my army while my Swarmlord was "tied up". His tactical decision to "go-for-it" paid off, turning the jaws of defeat into victory.

I felt that there were 2 pivotal moments in this game that set the tone for this game:

1. Bobby didn't try to take out my Swarmlord with his stormravens. Swarmy then went on to tear through his army and keep him from playing more aggressively.

2. When my Swarmlord was in range to assault either his dreadknight or his paladins. My instincts told me to go kill his dreadknight because of his mobility. But the practical side of me said to go after paladins instead for the 2 easy kill points. The result? I did kill his 2 paladins, but that tied up Swarmy for a turn and also put him out of position to react. Then his dreadknight went on to wreak havoc on the rest of my army....I should have went with my gut feeling.

Anyways, it was a great game. I hoped that it gave Bobby some confidence. Thought I lost, this game did confirm to me what I already knew - that tyranids can compete.



MVP's:
Grey Knights:
Dreadknight: While 1 dreadknight didn't do too much because he was killed by my Swarmlord. The other dreadknight went on to take out 1 unit of termagants, 1 tervigon, 1 unit of hive guards and my tyrannofex. He single-handedly gave the grey knights the win. Excellent performance.

Tyranids:
Swarmlord: Swarmlord was a menace all game. He kept Bobby from playing too aggressively, thus allowing me more freedom and time to shoot. Then when he did get into combat, he took out a dreadknight, 2 paladins, the grey knight terminators and the purgation squad like a hot knife through butter. He didn't even take a single wound at all. As a counter-assault unit, you can't really expect any better.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grey Therion wrote:
I am not sure why JY2 deployed to one side of the board rather than the middle. This allowed for the Stormravens to fire a lot of missiles and get away with only ~2/5 of the Tyranid army shooting back at them.

I did so because of 1) the lack of cover on that side and 2) I felt putting my forces on the other side of the tower would stretch out my army more than I was comfortable with. But no matter how I placed them, I don't think I still would have been able to shoot your storm ravens with more than 1 unit of hive guards until turns 2 or even 3 as long as you stick to the table edges. Then again, that is just by me guesstimating the distance. I could be wrong.

My target priority was definitely wrong, I underestimated the Swarmlord, though to be fare the second Dreadknight had a chance to instantly kill it but failed to land a single wound against it! Next time it will have to be Draigo vs. Swarmlord in hand to hand!

That'll be an interesting matchup.

1) How do 3 Stormravens behave and is it comparable to the Damonhunter x3 LRs or x2LR+1Dread?

It's pretty much a toss-up. You are trading mobility for durability. I suppose it depends on what type of build you go up against - missile/ranged AT-spam or melta-spam. Since the new Grey Knights, I haven't really ran land raiders (well, maybe once or twice).

2) Can 1-man Paladin units be useful for anything?

Yes, they can. They are sacrificial "distraction" units that will draw some of the enemy fire. If not, then they can actually do some damage in combat. Just be aware that if you are using them, you will be giving up free KP's in annihilation.

3) Capabilities of a 7man terminator squad as a solid troop choice?

While I do see terminators as a viable troop choice, I wouldn't really take a 7-man squad. Either 5-man units so that they can ride in transports or 10-man units with psybolt ammo where you can combat squad.

4) Feasibility of using a inquisitorial troops with GKs.

Absolutely feasible. I actually think that some of the best GK builds will use Coteaz and his henchmen. You really need something to balance out the "eliteness" of the knights and all their expensive units. Henchmen are the perfect complement.

5) Overall usefulness of the Librarian

He is definitely a useful HQ. The only question is, which GK HQ isn't useful? They've got some very competitive choices for HQ. Seems like Coteaz is here to stay for your army. I'd recommend trying different HQ's to see which you like best.

6) Proper equipment for a Dreadknight

I'm for mobility. I'd say the personal teleporter and heavy incinerator. I see the dreadknight as a unit that will provide some anti-horde with his incinerator as well as take out the occassional vehicle or monstrous creature thanks to his mobility.

Currently, the GK-Purifier lists seem to be getting better and better refined, but I will continue to push to create a non-Crowe, capable GK army!

Alright. That's the spirit. We need more diversity of GK players here.

Great discussion guys!

f*ck-it-I'm-going-to-take-the-fight-to-the-enemy-or-die-trying

Great way to describe what happened!

MVP definitely goes to the Swarmlord and the surviving Dreadknight!