Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Depends on your definition of psychic, really.

But no, C'tan are not "40k psychic," like the Tyranids are, the Outsider being the Hive Mind is very unlikely, and kind of out of character to an extent, the Outsider likes being physically present when nomming, feeding off the insanity and fear it causes.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Old Ones also existed quite some time ago, or rather started, the Necron codex actually has kind of a huge timeline in it, the C'tan ruled an empire that IIRC was stated to have lasted "millenia."

Milennia is only thousands of years. Just crossing the void from the galaxy before the Milky Way would have taken hundreds of millions of years since they'd be doing it without Narvhals, at sub light speed. They hit 11 galaxies before that one as well. Making that hudreds of millions of years sub light crossing a dozen times, you're looking at close to, if not more than, a billion (well, in short scale) years from their first galaxy to ours.

The Tyranids are older than the Old Ones, the Necrontyr and the War in heaven by a long, long margin. Younger than the C'tan, however.

-Loki- wrote:Milennia is only thousands of years. Just crossing the void from the galaxy before the Milky Way would have taken hundreds of millions of years since they'd be doing it without Narvhals, at sub light speed. They hit 11 galaxies before that one as well. Making that hudreds of millions of years sub light crossing a dozen times, you're looking at close to, if not more than, a billion (well, in short scale) years from their first galaxy to ours.

The Tyranids are older than the Old Ones, the Necrontyr and the War in heaven by a long, long margin. Younger than the C'tan, however.

What makes you think that the Tyranids lack FTL travel between galaxies?

Also, the amount of galaxies the Tyranids allegedly "hit" varies, the rulebook suggests a dozen, but the codex postulates that maybe they have been feeding on galaxies since time immemorial, or maybe just their home galaxy.

"12" is an oddly exact number, it's likely hyperbole.

The Necrons are confirmed to be ancient though, Tyranids are only speculated to be.

Void__Dragon wrote:What makes you think that the Tyranids lack FTL travel between galaxies?

Because there's nothing in the fluff that says they have FTL intergalactic travel? The Narvhal is stated as being for interstellar travel, not intergalactic.

Void__Dragon wrote:Also, the amount of galaxies the Tyranids allegedly "hit" varies, the rulebook suggests a dozen, but the codex postulates that maybe they have been feeding on galaxies since time immemorial, or maybe just their home galaxy.

You say that like other codices have never had inconsistencies between rulebooks and other codex editions and never had all the fluff stand. Standard GW fluff rule is unless outright contradicted, all fluff is correct. Cruddace was just trying to be a bit mysterious with the fluff in the codex, but he never outright contradicted the rulebook fluff. He says maybe this or maybe that, nothing definite.

Void__Dragon wrote:"12" is an oddly exact number, it's likely hyperbole.

Oddly exact, yes, but stated as fact in the rulebook. It's correct, not hyperbole. I mean, if we're going to start stating official fluff is hyperbole, we might as well all give up ever discussing fluff. The C'tan being 'as old as the universe' sounds oddly hyperbolic as well.

Void__Dragon wrote:The Necrons are confirmed to be ancient though, Tyranids are only speculated to be.

It's only speculation if it's not based on anything. Simply basing their age on travel time between a dozen galaxies puts them at nearly a billion years old. That's not even gounting the yeras taken to subdue and consume those galaxies.

You also have a problem with a quote that just mentions "Galaxies". Are they talking about galaxies like the Milky Way, Andromeda or are they talking about galaxies like Sagittarius and Canis???

You can reconcile all of the known Tyranid fluff with a story like.

The Tyranid home galaxy is the Canis major dwarf galaxy. They came into contact with the Milky Way as Canis started being absorbed. As the Tyranids explored the Milky Way they encountered a more badass race that chased them out of the not only the Milky Way but also Canis as well. In their flight the Tyranids left some creatures behind, like the Kraken of Fenris, genestealers, Catachan Devils, ect.

Then the Tyranids stared eating the smaller dwarf galaxies around the Milky Way (There are only two that we currently know of but there might be more). Building up their strength to take back their home.

Once they reached the size they thought could beat the "Bad Ass" race they returned. As Hive Fleet Behemoth. The problem was that the galaxy had changed from when they were here last. So Behemoth was defeated.

Instead of giving up the Hive mind nibbled at the edges of the Milky Way rebuild it's strength. Durring this time the Tyranids sent the bulk of what was left to the Sagittarius Dwarf Irregular Galaxy. Which when they reached the size the Hive Mind thought was big enough to win. They re-attacked with Hive Fleet Leviathan. While using the biomass collected from the Milky Way, to draw the Milky Way's defenders away from the area that Leviathan would attack with Hive Fleet Kraken along with the smaller fleets.

What that takes into account is:
1: Tyranids are not from the Milky Way
2:The possibility that they where chased from their home Galaxy by another race.
3: The consumed a dozen galaxies
4: Why the long period of time after the defeat of Behemoth before the next major fleet attacked.
5: The short period of time between Kraken attacking and Leviathan.
6: The attack vector of Hive Fleet Leviathan. (From about the same location as Sagittarius Dwarf Galaxy)
7: Why Leviathan is the Largest fleet
8: If the "Badass" race is the Necron. It explains why the Tyranids avoid them if possible.
9: The "Billion times a billion" number that the Tyranids are said to have.
10: Why the Tyranids did not have the numbers to launch a Behemoth style invasion across the entire Milky Way
11: (10 b) Even with the knowledge that the Tyranids can build new hive ships from a single planet's biomass.

While it's something that GW has never stated. With the current fluff it's a plausible explanation.

Even if it has nothing to do with the Outsider being the Hive Mind. Which just does not jive with the fluff.

I cannot find the source, but I'm sure I recall reading the suggestion that the C'tan were the Warhammer 40,000 universe's explanation for the absence of Population III stars, which would suggest they were active relatively soon after the big bang (presuming the game universe follows the same physics as ours).

Since the Tyranids would appear to be more conventional, evolved biological organisms, that would necessarily make the C'tan immeasurably older.

I mean sure it's cool. But it can't be true, I mean that means that Necrons will "win" the universe. I mean they already are a strong force as is, which some people believe to be the strongest. But if turns out that 1 C'tan controls the entire Tyranid race, which other people think are the strongest force, that's pretty much just a whole bunch of Necron/C'tan power. Which means the tyranids are working together with necrons(not likely), or the tyranids are evading the necrons, because Necrons are just that powerful.
Cool in theory, not so cool in application.

Tyranids have been noted to avoid Necrons once. When they were on a course for the Outsiders Dyson Sphere. Yes, they avoided it.

Thinking logically, they avoided it because attacking it would have been a dumb thing to do. They attack systems in order to consume biomass. If a planet is too hard to crack (like their Vanguard discovers it is a fortress world), they will attack its supporting planets (as shown by hive fleet Nagas tactics) to build up sufficient biomass so they can take down the tougher planet, which has the benefit of also bleeding the target of incoming resources.

Avoiding the Dyson Sphere was simple tactics. If there's no biomass there to absorb, there's no point in attacking. It would drain biomass from the Tyranids (especially since fighting Gauus weaponry means they can't even break even by reabsorbing their dead) and severely weaken the tendril. So they went around it.

-Loki- wrote:Tyranids have been noted to avoid Necrons once. When they were on a course for the Outsiders Dyson Sphere. Yes, they avoided it.

Thinking logically, they avoided it because attacking it would have been a dumb thing to do. They attack systems in order to consume biomass. If a planet is too hard to crack (like their Vanguard discovers it is a fortress world), they will attack its supporting planets (as shown by hive fleet Nagas tactics) to build up sufficient biomass so they can take down the tougher planet, which has the benefit of also bleeding the target of incoming resources.

Avoiding the Dyson Sphere was simple tactics. If there's no biomass there to absorb, there's no point in attacking. It would drain biomass from the Tyranids (especially since fighting Gauus weaponry means they can't even break even by reabsorbing their dead) and severely weaken the tendril. So they went around it.

Twice in the Necron codex alone, are mentioned to do it once in the current Tyranid codex.

Once on page 11 it mentions that several worlds, not just the Dyson Sphere, were unmolested, avoided.

And yes, the case with the Outsider, as you mentioned.

There is also a mention of them avoid Tomb Worlds in the Tyranid codex, but I don't have it on me to give the exact page. Am downloading it at the moment, will bring it when it is done if you want.

... Not that I am really sure why I am arguing this with you, I agree it is not so much the relative power of the Necrons and the Tyranids that caused the Tyranids to avoid them, but the way they wage war, and their very natures. Tyranids cannot convert Living Metal to biomass, and gauss weaponry makes it so that they, as you said, cannot reabsorb their dead.

Oh, and as for your previous posts, I'm dropping the argument, since I don't really feel like arguing about something I don't much care about.