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Lizar7 wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I would wonder if the Tau's slow rate of expansion is really that big of a handicap, considering the only reason they've survived this long (fluff-wise) is because the Imperium had better things to do than exterminate them.

Another pro for the slow expansion is what they secure is very secured and they don't burn themselves out. Like in the Damonacles crusade the imperial crusade couldn't get past a single sept (Dal'yth) because they're all so fortified.

Despite this I still think it would be nice if they controlled more space, maybe if they started farther east or south away from humanity, and made contact with humans later.

I'd advise you read Savage Scars for a more accurate summary of the events on Dal'yth.

Personally I would like to see:

- The conclusion to Cypher's Journey.

- If the Alpha Legion are still loyal to the emperor or atleast if elements of the legion are still loyalist.

- If Ahriman discovers the Black Library and becomes a god.

- How many Black Templars there are, Like are they half the size of a space marine legion or more.

1hadhq wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:I'm not. That's their handicap. All races need one, all races have one. Be it the Imperiums size, and how slow it is, or the Orkz inability to coordinate for long periods, each race needs that balancing factor.

Why?

This is the fluff, not the game.

So youre advocating imbalance in the background?
No cons, just pros is a bit useless, uninteresting and most likely a breeding ground for the worst of fanbois.

What I'd like to see is:

- rise of the necrons. undead in space...
- the scale of the playground and the threat level balanced out.
- who pulls the strings behind the etherals?

What I actually advocated was that the Emporer should die, thus creating a wide open situation in which all sorts of exciting plot development would be possible.

Someone said they would like the Tau to get a good FTL drive. Someone else said that isn't possible because of something. I wrote a quick line showing how easy it would be.

Then people started to chip in with this "every race must have a balance" thing. I've never heard of it before and I don't see why it's necessary.

Not quite. Someone said the Tau should get better FTL, I disagree, they shouldn't, because its their disadvantage, not that it isn't possible. Then you simply said "Why?", no other reasons given, nothing else elaborated on.
It's necessary to create an interesting story. No one wants to fight an enemy with no weaknesses, that's mind numbingly boring. That's why I currently despise the Necrons. What the feth is their disadvantage, exactly?

iproxtaco wrote:That's why I currently despise the Necrons. What the feth is their disadvantage, exactly?

That they aren't all awake yet?

Pilau Rice wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's why I currently despise the Necrons. What the feth is their disadvantage, exactly?

That they aren't all awake yet?

And when they are?

iproxtaco wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's why I currently despise the Necrons. What the feth is their disadvantage, exactly?

That they aren't all awake yet?

And when they are?

Magnets

iproxtaco wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:That's why I currently despise the Necrons. What the feth is their disadvantage, exactly?

That they aren't all awake yet?

And when they are?

Nytol by the bucket load

Either that or the other half will be dead

iproxtaco wrote:Not quite. Someone said the Tau should get better FTL, I disagree, they shouldn't, because its their disadvantage, not that it isn't possible. Then you simply said "Why?", no other reasons given, nothing else elaborated on.
It's necessary to create an interesting story. No one wants to fight an enemy with no weaknesses, that's mind numbingly boring. That's why I currently despise the Necrons. What the feth is their disadvantage, exactly?

We are talking about the background, not the game.

I don't agree that every faction must have a disadvantage. Some of the most exciting stories are about a fight against huge odds.

You're also picking slow FTL travel as the sole weakness of the Tau, which isn't necessarily true, if they must have a weakness.

Kilkrazy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Not quite. Someone said the Tau should get better FTL, I disagree, they shouldn't, because its their disadvantage, not that it isn't possible. Then you simply said "Why?", no other reasons given, nothing else elaborated on.
It's necessary to create an interesting story. No one wants to fight an enemy with no weaknesses, that's mind numbingly boring. That's why I currently despise the Necrons. What the feth is their disadvantage, exactly?

We are talking about the background, not the game.

I don't agree that every faction must have a disadvantage. Some of the most exciting stories are about a fight against huge odds.

You're also picking slow FTL travel as the sole weakness of the Tau, which isn't necessarily true, if they must have a weakness.

Slow FTL is their "weakness" because it's also what protects them. The fact that they're restricted to the Eastern Fringe and its immediate environs is what keeps them shielded for the most part from the rest of the galaxy at large, but it's also what has stalemated their expansion beyond the Fringe.

Kilkrazy wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:Not quite. Someone said the Tau should get better FTL, I disagree, they shouldn't, because its their disadvantage, not that it isn't possible. Then you simply said "Why?", no other reasons given, nothing else elaborated on.
It's necessary to create an interesting story. No one wants to fight an enemy with no weaknesses, that's mind numbingly boring. That's why I currently despise the Necrons. What the feth is their disadvantage, exactly?

We are talking about the background, not the game.

I don't agree that every faction must have a disadvantage. Some of the most exciting stories are about a fight against huge odds.

You're also picking slow FTL travel as the sole weakness of the Tau, which isn't necessarily true, if they must have a weakness.

I'm fully aware that this is about the background.
Those fights against huge odds, did those who were fighting against such odds win? Or did they lose pointlessly? I'd find the latter needlessly boring. These battles are only interesting if the weaker side has some hope.
I never said sole weakness. It's simply the most prevalent one.

iproxtaco wrote:

Lizar7 wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I would wonder if the Tau's slow rate of expansion is really that big of a handicap, considering the only reason they've survived this long (fluff-wise) is because the Imperium had better things to do than exterminate them.

Another pro for the slow expansion is what they secure is very secured and they don't burn themselves out. Like in the Damonacles crusade the imperial crusade couldn't get past a single sept (Dal'yth) because they're all so fortified.

Despite this I still think it would be nice if they controlled more space, maybe if they started farther east or south away from humanity, and made contact with humans later.

I'd advise you read Savage Scars for a more accurate summary of the events on Dal'yth.

Spoiler:

The Imperium was winning, until they were ordered to withdraw due to an incoming Tyranid Hive Fleet.

I Guess I'll have to read that now. I think it's Games Workshop's bias that has the imperium win all the time, until they have to pull out so that the tau product line can survive. That seems to happen a lot.

Lizar7 wrote:I Guess I'll have to read that now. I think it's Games Workshop's bias that has the imperium win all the time, until they have to pull out so that the tau product line can survive. That seems to happen a lot.

Most of the codexes have numerous Imperial defeats - its usually the codex race that wins most of the battles described -as you want to big up the race you are tlaking about!

Certainly not what happens in the Imperial Armour line - the Imperium is usually defeated or at best manages a very blood victory that defeats the oobject of the original war.

Lizar7 wrote:

iproxtaco wrote:

Lizar7 wrote:

Psienesis wrote:I would wonder if the Tau's slow rate of expansion is really that big of a handicap, considering the only reason they've survived this long (fluff-wise) is because the Imperium had better things to do than exterminate them.

Another pro for the slow expansion is what they secure is very secured and they don't burn themselves out. Like in the Damonacles crusade the imperial crusade couldn't get past a single sept (Dal'yth) because they're all so fortified.

Despite this I still think it would be nice if they controlled more space, maybe if they started farther east or south away from humanity, and made contact with humans later.

I'd advise you read Savage Scars for a more accurate summary of the events on Dal'yth.

Spoiler:

The Imperium was winning, until they were ordered to withdraw due to an incoming Tyranid Hive Fleet.

I Guess I'll have to read that now. I think it's Games Workshop's bias that has the imperium win all the time, until they have to pull out so that the tau product line can survive. That seems to happen a lot.

It's written by long-time Tau fanboy Andy Hoare.

Mr Morden wrote:

Lizar7 wrote:I Guess I'll have to read that now. I think it's Games Workshop's bias that has the imperium win all the time, until they have to pull out so that the tau product line can survive. That seems to happen a lot.

Most of the codexes have numerous Imperial defeats - its usually the codex race that wins most of the battles described -as you want to big up the race you are tlaking about!

Certainly not what happens in the Imperial Armour line - the Imperium is usually defeated or at best manages a very blood victory that defeats the oobject of the original war.

This is because the Imperium almost always wins in the long run. Besides, what would be the interest in these books if the Imperium ends up wining...

What is true is that the plot of the Imperium wining most of the time with pirric, bloody, senseless victories or losing badly is a little bit eroded to my taste. I would like to see a Macharius type victory for the imperials every once in a while. I agree the Imperium is declining but it is still massviely powerful and resourceful.

It's a bit difficult to preserve the dramatic tension of humanity teetering on the edge of extinction for 10,000 years if the IoM keeps winning all its battles.

That's why people want to move the story forwards. There's no point doing that by the IoM "winning" because it's been done once already, in the pre-HH era, and because when the IoM wins, history ends.

It would be fun if the IoM could get its act together and invade the EoT, but what really needs to happen is for the IoM to fracture into several pieces, creating a number of successor states, possibly organised around existing Imperial factions such as the Ultramarines, Sororitas, Space Wolves and so on.

The Emporer could return unseen, and start to organise a new Empire. There could also be false Emporers.

There would be huge potential for all sorts of local and galaxy spanning stories in such a situation.

I'd like to see the overall story advanced, but that will never happen because then they would have to re-name the game to 41K, since 999 M41 is the current year.

On a smaller scale, I'd like to see Cypher's journey conclude. Or at least be explained. All we have now is speculation on the Dark Angel's part that he's heading toward Earth, and that he wants to do something with the sword.

I'd also like to see rules for him, too.

I'd also like to see Abaddon removed as head of the Chaos Legions, and replaced with a more competant general (the pool of less competant generals being so small...) Perhaps one who is less like a Saturday Morning cartoon villain. I look at Abaddon, and all I see is Cobra Commander bitching to Destro about the G.I. Joes...

What some people don't realize about the novels is what happened before hand. Normally the Imperium has lost a few worlds before the heroics that are in the novel happened. It show that despite fighting a uphill battle humanity has the will and the courage to push through.

Something about Space Marines, I feel we hardly know anything about them.

Failing that, the Big E popping his clogs raises some interesting possibilities. A fractured Imperium would/could allow all sorts of progress/stagnation between seperate parts of the imperium, allow leaders to emerge (primarch's,falase and true emporer reborn or whatever).

It wouldn't necessarily realign the existing universe or the consituent races but changes it slightly and would allow the story to develop without changing the game (actual and figuratively) too much. Although this could easily turn into a rehash of the HH.

I mean who doesn't want more human factions?

squidhills wrote:I'd like to see the overall story advanced, but that will never happen because then they would have to re-name the game to 41K, since 999 M41 is the current year.

.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's a bit difficult to preserve the dramatic tension of humanity teetering on the edge of extinction for 10,000 years if the IoM keeps winning all its battles.

It really doesn't though. Most of the battles the IoM "wins" are really not wins. They're stalemates or phyrric victories at best.

That's why people want to move the story forwards. There's no point doing that by the IoM "winning" because it's been done once already, in the pre-HH era, and because when the IoM wins, history ends.

When any of the major factions win, history ends. Hell if the Tau win, history ends.

It would be fun if the IoM could get its act together and invade the EoT, but what really needs to happen is for the IoM to fracture into several pieces, creating a number of successor states, possibly organised around existing Imperial factions such as the Ultramarines, Sororitas, Space Wolves and so on.

Why does that "need" to happen? You can't "invade" the Eye of Terror in any real way to affect the tide of filth from within it, in any case.
Why is it such a big deal that the IoM "fractures"? They're the only faction that we have right now which has come to the breaking point, and every time they pull back.

The Emperor could return unseen, and start to organise a new Empire. There could also be false Emperors.

Why is this the big sticking point?

There would be huge potential for all sorts of local and galaxy spanning stories in such a situation.

Stories that don't mean a damn to the tabletop, quite frankly. There's a ton of "potential for all sorts of local and galaxy spanning stories" without the Imperium fracturing.

squidhills wrote:I'd also like to see Abaddon removed as head of the Chaos Legions, and replaced with a more competant general (the pool of less competant generals being so small...) Perhaps one who is less like a Saturday Morning cartoon villain. I look at Abaddon, and all I see is Cobra Commander bitching to Destro about the G.I. Joes...

Yeah...Abaddon is far from a "Saturday Morning cartoon villain".

He accomplishes several of his goals more often than not, but cracking the Cadian Gate isn't going to happen without some very specific circumstances happening.

We're not talking about the tabletop. We're talking about the background.

Once again you cannot invade the Eye of Terror. This is as close as you can come: http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Nullships and it's considered a suicide mission.
When you send troops into the EoT you are basically giving Chaos more troops.

Kilkrazy wrote:We're not talking about the tabletop. We're talking about the background.

Gee, could have fooled me...

The point was that fracturing the Imperium will do nothing for the background of the game. As much as I like the background, they're not going to go and do something like fracturing the Imperium which would radically alter the dynamic of the game.

Although I will say I would laugh so hard if they did do it. So many more Space Marine/Imperial armies, and all we'll see is whining probably from the same people who think that fracturing the Imperium is such a great idea.

THE C'TAN WILL NEVER DIE

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:We're not talking about the tabletop. We're talking about the background.

Gee, could have fooled me...

The point was that fracturing the Imperium will do nothing for the background of the game. As much as I like the background, they're not going to go and do something like fracturing the Imperium which would radically alter the dynamic of the game.

Although I will say I would laugh so hard if they did do it. So many more Space Marine/Imperial armies, and all we'll see is whining probably from the same people who think that fracturing the Imperium is such a great idea.

Why would they make more SM chapters?

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:We're not talking about the tabletop. We're talking about the background.

Gee, could have fooled me...

The point was that fracturing the Imperium will do nothing for the background of the game. As much as I like the background, they're not going to go and do something like fracturing the Imperium which would radically alter the dynamic of the game.

Although I will say I would laugh so hard if they did do it. So many more Space Marine/Imperial armies, and all we'll see is whining probably from the same people who think that fracturing the Imperium is such a great idea.

Why would they make more SM chapters?

I didn't say they'd make more Space Marine Chapters.

I said there'd be more Space Marine/Imperial armies. If the Imperium fractured, there'd likely be a large amount of Astartes Chapters that go what would be deemed now as 'renegade'.

I don't get your original point then.

nomotog wrote:I don't get your original point then.

Saying that the Imperium fracturing to the point of a civil war will result in "a huge potential for all sorts of local and galaxy spanning situations" is a fallacy. There's already the potential for those stories, given the already fragmented nature of the Imperium and the fact that there is no instantaneous communication nor permanent authority.

There's also no room for more human empires, because we're aware of where they've all been at and they've either been brought into the fold or destroyed during the Great Crusade.

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't get your original point then.

Saying that the Imperium fracturing to the point of a civil war will result in "a huge potential for all sorts of local and galaxy spanning situations" is a fallacy. There's already the potential for those stories, given the already fragmented nature of the Imperium and the fact that there is no instantaneous communication nor permanent authority.

There's also no room for more human empires, because we're aware of where they've all been at and they've either been brought into the fold or destroyed during the Great Crusade.

I think their is opportunity for for good stories and overall growth. The SM will have to come to terms with the fact that their emperor isn't coming back and that in spite of their "ultra coll badassery" they where in fact helpless. The inquisition could be forced on the run after their government sanctioned psycho card runs out and they are just psycho, or they could take on a new role as freelance bounty hunters. Different fractions could be neat. Maybe have SM mixed in with IG, so you would have something like a blood angels army that includes guardsmen and super heavy tanks. Then, of course, it gives all the other sides a lot more breathing room.