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I'd like to see the timeline advanced 1,000 years:

- The Golden Throne rapidly failing, Emp not dead but close to the edge - increase in daemonic incursion on the webway join, intermittent outages of the Astronomican, fractures in the structure of the IoM as various political and religious factions struggle to make sense of what is happening and assert their "point of view" (think Age of Apostasy MK2).

- Surge of Chaos - the religious and civil unrest in the IoM allows infiltration of Chaos cults and the launch of the 14+th Chaos crusades, retaking areas around the Eye before being driven back, though major Chaos fleets take sizable areas in surrounding sectors and launch constant attacks on the IoM and other races (and wipe out the Tau in one crushing attack - bwahaha! (joke - or is it )).

- Arrival of the SuperFleets - The 'Nids finally arrive in force with a single SuperFleet x10 as large as previous fleets and start kicking bottom and taking names.

- Alarms go off in the Tomb Worlds and Necrons stretch and yawn before teleporting out into the universe to find the nearest Starbucks via a good bit of KILL ALL HUMANS (and everything else).

- Orks sense it is party time with all the 'nids and Necrons and the IoM kicking the seven shades out of each other. They become even bigger and stronger as the weaker strains die off and wage even more unceasing war on everything (and themselves of course).

- Eldar have more or less retreated from the chaos unfolding and only come out of hiding to protect their few remaining interests in the material universe. Perhaps bringing out a few of the previously forbidden weapon systems to counter for their more desperate position.

nomotog wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

nomotog wrote:I don't get your original point then.

Saying that the Imperium fracturing to the point of a civil war will result in "a huge potential for all sorts of local and galaxy spanning situations" is a fallacy. There's already the potential for those stories, given the already fragmented nature of the Imperium and the fact that there is no instantaneous communication nor permanent authority.

There's also no room for more human empires, because we're aware of where they've all been at and they've either been brought into the fold or destroyed during the Great Crusade.

I think their is opportunity for for good stories and overall growth.

There's really not, any "opportunity for good stories and overall growth" would really come from a Great Crusade/Reunification era game. Multitudes of Xenos we've never seen, etc.

The SM will have to come to terms with the fact that their emperor isn't coming back

Where the heck did you get this stuff from? The Astartes are well aware of this fact, as is the Imperium at large. The only people spreading these rumors about "The Emperor coming back" are the fans. There was a small bit about it in RT/2nd edition but that's been gone for quite some time.

and that in spite of their "ultra cool badassery" they were in fact helpless.

You're aware that the Astartes recognize that they are not some kind of huge force, yes? There's a reason they don't operate as line troops.

The inquisition could be forced on the run after their government sanctioned psycho card runs out and they are just psycho, or they could take on a new role as freelance bounty hunters.

And you see this? This is why I say this "growth" is not necessary and in fact detrimental. Inquisitors as "freelance bounty hunters"? Really? REALLY?

Different fractions could be neat.

"Factions" not "fractions".

Maybe have SM mixed in with IG, so you would have something like a blood angels army that includes guardsmen and super heavy tanks.

Oh yes, that will end well.

Then, of course, it gives all the other sides a lot more breathing room.

It really doesn't. The other sides will still be warring with each other. Probably more, with the Imperium no longer being a threat for them to focus on.
Orks, for example, are relatively unconcerned with the Tau right now aside from a few Waaghs on the smaller side. If the Imperium no longer represents a great big fight on the Eastern Fringe...guess where they're going to Waagh! towards next?

Kanluwen wrote:The point was that fracturing the Imperium will do nothing for the background of the game. As much as I like the background, they're not going to go and do something like fracturing the Imperium which would radically alter the dynamic of the game.

Although I will say I would laugh so hard if they did do it. So many more Space Marine/Imperial armies, and all we'll see is whining probably from the same people who think that fracturing the Imperium is such a great idea.

Fracturing the IoM with a limited timeline jump would not lead to radically different army structures - you would have chapters and armies aligned with one or more faction, or going it on their own. From a fluff point of view it could be argued that there would be even less Space Marines as they would be fighting each other as well as everything else

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The point was that fracturing the Imperium will do nothing for the background of the game. As much as I like the background, they're not going to go and do something like fracturing the Imperium which would radically alter the dynamic of the game.

Although I will say I would laugh so hard if they did do it. So many more Space Marine/Imperial armies, and all we'll see is whining probably from the same people who think that fracturing the Imperium is such a great idea.

Fracturing the IoM with a limited timeline jump would not lead to radically different army structures - you would have chapters and armies aligned with one or more faction, or going it on their own.

...Which leads to "more Space Marines or Imperial armies". Depending on how the fracture is done, it would directly impact on how the army impact is done.

From a fluff point of view it could be argued that there would be even less Space Marines as they would be fighting each other as well as everything else

From a "fluff point of view", it's not going to happen. The Imperium has been focused on enduring. Everything about the Imperium right now is to ensure that it survives.

The only impact the Emperor has right now is as a tourist attraction(loyal devotees of the Imperial Cult make pilgrimages to Terra to hope to get to see the Golden Throne), a bogeyman("The Emperor watches us this day, so don't feth up!") and a lighthouse(Astronomicon).

Kanluwen wrote:...Which leads to "more Space Marines or Imperial armies". Depending on how the fracture is done, it would directly impact on how the army impact is done.

I'm not entirely certain where you are getting this idea from. During the Age of Apostasy, armies were simply aligned to one cause or another - they were more or less the same. Over 10,000 years of imperial rule, the Imperials have remained more or less the same organisationally, with armies conforming to the same basic FOC, SM chapters adhering to the Codex, etc. Various religious and political factions would not change that remarkably.

Some of the old guard (various famous regiments and chapters) will have fallen by the wayside in the wars that followed, some new ones will have arisen. I think of the factions akin to the factions and alignments in D&D - simply fluff to play against as a background to make things more interesting, rather than radically different forces that require their own codexes. Kind of like how many different types of IG army can be built from the IG codex - you can put any of your own fluff behind your army - you don't need to have your own Codex to represent it.

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:...Which leads to "more Space Marines or Imperial armies". Depending on how the fracture is done, it would directly impact on how the army impact is done.

I'm not entirely certain where you are getting this idea from. During the Age of Apostasy, armies were simply aligned to one cause or another - they were more or less the same. Over 10,000 years of imperial rule, the Imperials have remained more or less the same organisationally, with armies conforming to the same basic FOC, SM chapters adhering to the Codex, etc. Various religious and political factions would not change that remarkably.

"If the Emperor dies, then there's no Imperium", that's the fracture that keeps getting proposed here. With that happening, there would be a huge change in religious and political factions. We'd see more Vraks styled Cardinals who suddenly proclaim themselves the Emperor's Chosen. We'd have Guard Commanders seizing Navy assets in transit, Inquisitors grabbing power "for protecting the people" and Astartes basically doing everything they can to stop people from doing whatever the hell they want in this pandemonium.
Advancing the timeline is not helpful if the entire freaking predication is "THE EMPRAH'S DED!".


The Age of Apostasy was, quite frankly, relatively tame.

Some of the old guard (various famous regiments and chapters) will have fallen by the wayside in the wars that followed, some new ones will have arisen. I think of the factions akin to the factions and alignments in D&D - simply fluff to play against as a background to make things more interesting, rather than radically different forces that require their own codexes. Kind of like how many different types of IG army can be built from the IG codex - you can put any of your own fluff behind your army - you don't need to have your own Codex to represent it.

What "factions" are you talking about here?
There's no real play of "factions" in 40k outside of the races proper. It doesn't matter if you field an Amalathian Inquisitor led Grey Knight force. It's still a Grey Knight force.

Kanluwen wrote:"If the Emperor dies, then there's no Imperium", that's the fracture that keeps getting proposed here. With that happening, there would be a huge change in religious and political factions. We'd see more Vraks styled Cardinals who suddenly proclaim themselves the Emperor's Chosen. We'd have Guard Commanders seizing Navy assets in transit, Inquisitors grabbing power "for protecting the people" and Astartes basically doing everything they can to stop people from doing whatever the hell they want in this pandemonium.
Advancing the timeline is not helpful if the entire freaking predication is "THE EMPRAH'S DED!".

*points to the bit where the Emp is on his last legs in his timeline advance, not actually dead*

I would suggest various religious factions would split off as they see the signs of the end of times. Political units cut off from the throne decide they would do better looking after themselves, political forces closer to the Throne attempt to guard their powerbase and others attempt to grab what they can. The faltering of the GT perhaps leads to a split in the Ad Mech as some decide that the Emp can't be Om as his machine is failing, etc.

This, along with all the other threats heightening leads to a lot more fun.

This timeline also leaves room for the Emp to make a comeback tour

The Age of Apostasy was, quite frankly, relatively tame.

Pft, I was just using it as an example of strife within the IoM that was not quite as severe as the HH.

What "factions" are you talking about here?
There's no real play of "factions" in 40k outside of the races proper. It doesn't matter if you field an Amalathian Inquisitor led Grey Knight force. It's still a Grey Knight force.

I mentioned some possible factions above - maybe a couple of Ad Mech (pro and anti Emp being Om), maybe the High Lords ruling the "old Imperium", perhaps one of the Lords broke off and formed their own powerbase. Then various independent mini-empires which have decided that the Imperium can no longer look after them, as well as worlds/empires caught up with the Ad Mech struggle. Then of course there will be various religious factions struggling against each other as well.

And that was kind of my point - the armies are more or less the same - we are simply taking about the background behind it being advanced. That is why I don't get your comments about there being more SM/IG armies.

I would like to see more info about Old Ones and the evolution of Men.

Ghoul stars are also important factor in this. And I wish to see an inside of the Black Library and the home of all 4 Chaos Gods.

SilverMk2 wrote:And that was kind of my point - the armies are more or less the same - we are simply taking about the background behind it being advanced. That is why I don't get your comments about there being more SM/IG armies.

Jeezum Silver, I'm gonna have to stick you next time we play Reach.

The point was that there WILL be more SM/IG armies being fleshed out. People whine too much about it now, when we get details on smaller factions--we're going to get even MORE whining.

I don't want the timeline to advance however. They're backed into a corner now, and anything they do now is going to be impacted by that.

Hrud. I'm pretty sure that they're the most commonly mentioned non-playable race in the game, yet we know virtually nothing about them other than they generate entropic fields, they migrate, and they're ugly.

Someone write a good Ordo Xenos vs. the Hrud story.

I will have to bitchslap you with my mighty robo palm

I was thinking you meant "official" codex style armies, rather than tabletop stuff.

I think the point of this thread is more about fluff (which is all I am talking about) rather than tabletop.

Though I do think that bringing in some "ogres" style super ork strains would be interesting (see my suggestion list).

SilverMK2 wrote:I will have to bitchslap you with my mighty robo palm

I was thinking you meant "official" codex style armies, rather than tabletop stuff.

I think the point of this thread is more about fluff (which is all I am talking about) rather than tabletop.

Which still doesn't negate the fact that all we get is whines whenever the Imperium gets something about them. For feth's sake, people cry about Imperial Armour featuring the Imperium.

Though I do think that bringing in some "ogres" style super ork strains would be interesting (see my suggestion list).

The "ogres" style super-ork strains are supposed to be Black Orks.

Kanluwen wrote:Which still doesn't negate the fact that all we get is whines whenever the Imperium gets something about them. For feth's sake, people cry about Imperial Armour featuring the Imperium.

Check out all the other fluff I talk about - the IoM is a small part of the overall shake up

The "ogres" style super-ork strains are supposed to be Black Orks.

Black Orks will be like grots to the Mighty Silver(MK2)back Orks

SilverMK2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Which still doesn't negate the fact that all we get is whines whenever the Imperium gets something about them. For feth's sake, people cry about Imperial Armour featuring the Imperium.

Check out all the other fluff I talk about - the IoM is a small part of the overall shake up

Again: I get that. But there's still going to be Imperial related fluff. We can't have that. It's either the Imperium shatters into a gajillion pieces(because they're jerks, naturally) or Chaos wins to some people's eyes.

The "ogres" style super-ork strains are supposed to be Black Orks.

Black Orks will be like grots to the Mighty Silver(MK2)back Orks

Shall we just call them Brutes? Maybe Lawrence?

Well, the fall of the Roman Empire lead to about 1,000 years of snoozeville, historically speaking, so I suppose the nay-sayers are right.

Kilkrazy wrote:Well, the fall of the Roman Empire lead to about 1,000 years of snoozeville, historically speaking, so I suppose the nay-sayers are right.

I didn't say it wouldn't lead to "snoozeville".

What I said amounts to "it would lead to too much change in the game proper, and be a silly thing for GW to do".

I thought we were talking about the background, not the game.

They're integrally tied when it comes to things like breaking one of the biggest factions.

It would be great to know more about the Adeptus Custodes. I know their mystery helps to make them seem more powerfull and that they are mainly only in the Emperor's Throne Room anyway (so not much to tell) but they are probably the most individually powerfull people in the Imperium and we know that not all of them are in the Throne Room. Where are these custodians? They're too big to go missing!

Kilkrazy wrote:I thought we were talking about the background, not the game.

The Bloodbearer wrote:It would be great to know more about the Adeptus Custodes. I know their mystery helps to make them seem more powerfull and that they are mainly only in the Emperor's Throne Room anyway (so not much to tell) but they are probably the most individually powerful people in the Imperium and we know that not all of them are in the Throne Room. Where are these custodians? They're too big to go missing!

They don't leave Terra. So there's nothing to tell.

Like I said though. I don't see why the background expanding requires a timeline advance. There's hundreds upon thousands of events in the timeline, right now that could be expanded upon. This idea of the "Imperium teetering on the edge" makes for a boring story is ridiculous. The whole point of the Imperium "teetering on the edge" is to reinforce the idea that there is only war.

It's a setting, not an ongoing story.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:It's a setting, not an ongoing story.

This is also a very good point.

I don't want GW White Wolfing it up.

Yes.....we don't want them doing what you just said....what are you talking about?

I don't know anymore. I've been channeling Nunchuck Nimoy for too long.

Thanks for clearing that up.

It also could be that your question was vague. Were you asking what "White Wolfing it up" means?

Because if you were, I'd suggest you look into how they took their RPG series. They wrote themselves into the same bind that GW did, which then led to a massive apocalyptic reboot.

Meh, I'll just get the jist of it from what you just said.

Too drastic of changes all at once is bad.

If we were to progressively have led up to where we are now? That'd be a different story. But 40k has pretty much always been at this specific point in time.