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I've never really looked at it as your 30+ units were slaughtered as they ran from three guys. Not everything ends in death, perhaps 10 were killed and the other 20 ran from the battle field in terror. A lot is going on in these battles, the models can only represent so much of it.

Greek myth, Bible. It's all hocus pocus

DukeRustfield wrote:
Personally, I don't like a lot of the combat resolution stuff because IMHO it seems to favor mass models. But I don't have a solution and I understand why they do at least some of it.

The only things that favor mass models are:

1. Combat Resolution bonus for ranks, which caps at +3.

2. Steadfast


I can understand why some people have such problems with the way Steadfast is done, but I'm not really sure there's a viable alternative that doesn't invalidate infantry.

Well, there is a banner in the Empire book that doubles the rank bonus. It is expensive enough that only the BSB can take it. It is possible to get a static combat resolution of BSB+Banner+Warbanner+2x3 Ranks=9. However, taking this banner mean the unit cannot pursue enemies. So from the description of the match it doesn't seem like they were playing the rules right either way.

The downside is that this unit would cost almost 500 points and still have a very low damage output. Plus it's extremely reliant on the BSB, so if you can hang on long enough to kill him then the unit isn't nearly as dangerous.

WGMelchior wrote:Plus it's extremely reliant on the BSB, so if you can hang on long enough to kill him then the unit isn't nearly as dangerous.

Especially when you consider there are few character choices as killable as Empire Battle Standard Bearers. The Griffon banner is good, but at the end of the day it's basically adding 3 at most to CR, so it's hardly an overpowering strategy, especially in this edition where CR just doesn't matter as much as it used to.

I do not like "remove x model(s) from the game" rules that circumvent any protective measures. Never have and, I daresay, I never will.

Even if they allow a 'check' to avoid them.

It is lazy game design in an attempt to be "awesome".

I don't like "without any saves of any kind" either. Because it's just such a big paint brush.

Pit of Shades is the bane of my life!

Dont run rats 10 wide unless they have a bell/furnance.

/problem solved

EDIT: Nevermind me, I'm being stupid.

DukeRustfield wrote:I don't like "without any saves of any kind" either. Because it's just such a big paint brush.

I think there's a place for it, to represent a truly epic spell that just doesn't care how powerful your troops are. But presently there's a whole lot of spells like this, and with the present magic system they're not that hard to cast, and the end result is that these spells don't feel that special, it's just various kinds of protection end up feeling very weak.

Kurce wrote:Anyone else irked by some of the rules in this game? For example, I have 50 clanrats led by a Skaven Warlord on a Rat Ogre Bonebreaker. I get assaulted by a fat squad of Ogres and lose about 12 Clanrats. I only manage to do about 4 wounds back so I am down by 8. After it is all said and done, I lose combat by about 8 or 9 so I need double ones to stay and fight. I fail my Ld and now my rats break. I roll 2d6 for the Flee roll and he rols 2d6 for the Pursuit roll. I roll 7 and he rolls 8. My entire unit is dead. Barely a fifth of that entire unit died in combat and now the entire unit just dies along with the Warlord? Why is initiative not factored in? Movement value? Why it is just 100% pure random if your ENTIRE unit just automatically dies or not? I do not understand their logic when designing the rules in this regard.

Anyone else irked by this?

Not as irked as I would be by the complexity of doing it some other way. Here's the way I look at it:

Your initiative is factored in. It's factored in where you get to strike before the ogres. Thus, you have a chance (small in this case, but always a chance) to do more damage to the enemy than you take, thanks to your Initiative.

Your leadership is factored in to whether you break or not in the first place.

Your movement is, sort of, factored in. Skaven get +1 to run away. Dwarfs, which are slow, get -1. Units which are really fast get an extra d6. Also, if movement WAS factored in, Skaven move 5 and Ogres move 6, so you would be more, not less, likely to be caught. As your problem is with being caught by the ogres, factoring in movement wouldn't help.

So, while you think that breaking and being run down is 100% random, as part of the overall combat resolution, the weapon skill, strength, toughness, initiative, leadership, armor, and general movement and organizational capacities of the unit have all been consulted. After you determine who goes first, resolve attacks, resolve return attacks, and factor in ranks, formation, and some other considerations, and then factor in Leadership and movement (swift stride, army bonuses or penalties), then, it's random.

I don't think the problem is with the die roll for flee distance. Maybe one of the other factors should weigh a bit more somewhere in the entire combat phase before that, but I don't think its flee distance that is problematic.

You might as well claim that all Leadership tests are 100% random, because they are rolled on 2d6 too. There's a large amount of not-completely random stuff that gets factored in before you determine that final 2d6 flee roll.

I see a lot of people saying that running rats in a horde formation is pretty bad and that I should do a "schoolbus" formation. I played that earlier this week and my opponent's Hydras had a field day with them. Two templates damn near killed all of them. Killed about 30 or so Clan rats off of it.

EDIT:

You might as well claim that all Leadership tests are 100% random, because they are rolled on 2d6 too. There's a large amount of not-completely random stuff that gets factored in before you determine that final 2d6 flee roll.

Need to address this fallacy real quick:

You are trying to get a set number that is established before the game is started. In essence, I KNOW the value I need to beat before even starting the game. I know what my Skaven leadership is before the game starts and I know that there will be modifiers applied to it. It is in their statline. However, when rolling for Flee!, it is completely random. Your statline is 100% irrelevant. They get a random pursuit roll and you get a random flee roll. If his beats or exceeds yours, your units are toast.

Kurce wrote:Anyone else irked by some of the rules in this game? For example, I have 50 clanrats led by a Skaven Warlord on a Rat Ogre Bonebreaker. I get assaulted by a fat squad of Ogres and lose about 12 Clanrats. I only manage to do about 4 wounds back so I am down by 8. After it is all said and done, I lose combat by about 8 or 9 so I need double ones to stay and fight. I fail my Ld and now my rats break. I roll 2d6 for the Flee roll and he rols 2d6 for the Pursuit roll. I roll 7 and he rolls 8. My entire unit is dead. Barely a fifth of that entire unit died in combat and now the entire unit just dies along with the Warlord? Why is initiative not factored in? Movement value? Why it is just 100% pure random if your ENTIRE unit just automatically dies or not? I do not understand their logic when designing the rules in this regard.

Anyone else irked by this?

Yes this sounds correct

The same thing happened to my friend except he had a warlord and death master skinch in the same steadfast unit, and I had a warsphinx charged up into his rear.

Needless to say he doesn't like me using my warsphinx anymore.