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Anyone else irked by some of the rules in this game? For example, I have 50 clanrats led by a Skaven Warlord on a Rat Ogre Bonebreaker. I get assaulted by a fat squad of Ogres and lose about 12 Clanrats. I only manage to do about 4 wounds back so I am down by 8. After it is all said and done, I lose combat by about 8 or 9 so I need double ones to stay and fight. I fail my Ld and now my rats break. I roll 2d6 for the Flee roll and he rols 2d6 for the Pursuit roll. I roll 7 and he rolls 8. My entire unit is dead. Barely a fifth of that entire unit died in combat and now the entire unit just dies along with the Warlord? Why is initiative not factored in? Movement value? Why it is just 100% pure random if your ENTIRE unit just automatically dies or not? I do not understand their logic when designing the rules in this regard.

Anyone else irked by this?

How big was his Ogre unit and what formation were you running your rats in?

The ogre unit that slammed into his right flank was a horde of 12 Ogres (only 2 ranks deep at the time because I had lost 6 previously due to other combats). 1 was my Tyrant, 1 was my Bruiser BSB, and another was my Slaughtermaster. Between impact hits, my Tyrant Overkilling his Warlock Engineer, and a ton of attacks from other Ogres and ~17 Gnoblars in the front of his rank, I did a lot of wounds, had the Charge, had Bloodgorge and Toothcraker on, and 2 Standards (regular Standard and Battle Standard).

The issue he is trying to present is that while he lost combat, he is wondering why my I2 (or Mv6, but that is some of the highest or highest in the game) isn't a factor in the combat for catching him. He is wondering why make a rule for losing combat almost basically a toss up for losing the unit?

Ogres are Movement 6, Skaven are Movement 5. Not a big difference there. Besides, it isn't like you're disengaging into a clean sprint. Your formation is collapsing inwards, scattering and then running in a blind panic away from your opponent. Based upon which sources you consult, there's evidence that historical ranked infantry suffered more combat casualties from the chaos of fleeing than they did from actual fighting. If you don't want your unit to get run down to a "random dice roll" then preserve your Steadfast bonus, stay within range of your Battle Standard Bearer or don't let yourself get maneuvered into greatly unfavorable combats.

Should have left the Bonebreaker at home. "Scurry Away!" would have saved your ass

In terms of rules that are dumb, I hate the fact that poison can affect everything including reanimated corpses without a functioning circulation system.

Kurce wrote:After it is all said and done, I lose combat by about 8 or 9 so I need double ones to stay and fight.

Don't your rats get the Strength in Numbers rule based on the Warlord's leadership like my rats do? You do run your 50 rat unit in a schoobus formation, five wide, right?

You were playing Skaven, and you lost to Ogres, and you're going to complain that it has something to do with the rules being stupid?

Yeah...ok. -.-

I think its a fair rule and this post wouldn't exist if the ogres had lost combat and fled. Games based on statistics and dice are not easy to balance and be kept interesting. Dwarfs catching anyone seems unlikely but the games would be flawed if they never even had the chance.

50 clanrats (30ish after casulaties) were outranked by 12 Ogres in 2 ranks?

The problem isn't the rules, it's the tactics.

I'm sure the OP is aware you shouldn't get done in this way. This isn't what his post is about. The post is about if the break and flee part of the game could be more realistic. I think this is one rule GW has got right imo a realistic version would be more complicated and harder to resolve which is not what fantasy needs.

Vulcan wrote:50 clanrats (30ish after casulaties) were outranked by 12 Ogres in 2 ranks?

The problem isn't the rules, it's the tactics.

I never out ranked him initially, but after combat, I killed so many rats that I lowered them down to 2 ranks (or 2 ranks and an uncomplete rank). And like stated by me and others, the complaint is based on "How can Ogres catch Rats with higher Initiative?". Honestly, I think they should have just added the Mv component to the equation to reflect how far they can flee/pursue (and not allow flying, only land based movement) to match how charging works. Of course, this would not change the situation as I have +1 Mv over Skaven.

It was a horde of rats. 5 ranks 10 models wide. And my complaint isn't about his Ogres smashing me. I have no problem with that at all. My complaint is how the fleeing part of the game works in that it is 100% random and does not factor in anything else at all. The initiative of your models. The movement of your models. What TYPE of models they are. It. Is. 100. Percent. Random. I don't understand why they made the rules like that. Just seems dumb to me.

EDIT:

I would have been perfectly fine with d6 + Movement. Now that I think about it, why the hell is it NOT like that?

So that Dwarves get the same chance to catch someone as Elves. Rolling against initiative in 40k works because you don't normally get much difference in initative between two combat-worthy units, and all infantry moves the same distance, as cavalry moves the same distance etc. A low I Tau Fire Warrior doesn't stand much of a chance of catching anyone or running away, and for good reason; they're not combat troops.

In WHFB, however, there is a good difference between the initiative of a lot of combat units. Saurus are slower than men who are slower than elves who are faster than ogres who are faster than dwarves, but each army has combat-worthy troops. Saurus don't suck at combat because they're slower than Humans or Elves, and Elves aren't better at combat than dwarves just because they're faster.

Then you have to factor in movement speed. Dwarves are slower than humans who are slower than Elves who are slower than Ogres. Should Humans be punished for wining combat against Ogres by not being fast enough to chase them down? No.

We don't assume that each individual model is caught and killed, we simply assume that they wander off in seperate directions as they run, or the winning unit throws their weapons at the fleeing enemies, or they surround the enemy before they escape.

If you try and make it more complex than that, you'll soon end up with a game where faster armies win more games due to being able to chase down fleeing units, whereas slower armies cannot and the fleeing unit regroups. Dwarves won't be able to do a whole lot, both being easier to catch and not being able to catch anything themselves.

Currently, each army has an generally equal chance of catching the same unit type of another army. Ogres can catch Dwarves, but Dwarves can also catch Ogres and so on and so forth.

Also, fleeing does take into account model type. Fliers, cavalry, monsterous beasts etc. have swiftstride, allowing them a better chance of getting away from a slower enemy.

It's not completely random.

Cavalry and Flyers both pursue and retreat farther then other units.

I kind of like that it's largely random. That way you can't use fleeing as a get out of jail free card. If I loose combat to movement 3 dwarves, with my movement 9 cavalry, fail my leadership and not have to worry, there's no way they could roll high enough to be my minimum of 10.

Eloquently Ninja'd

Thatguyoverthere wrote:It's not completely random.

Cavalry and Flyers both pursue and retreat farther then other units.

I kind of like that it's largely random. That way you can't use fleeing as a get out of jail free card. If I loose combat to movement 3 dwarves, with my movement 9 cavalry, fail my leadership and not have to worry, there's no way they could roll high enough to be my minimum of 10.

Sounds legit to me. Rules are rules I suppose.

Pretty sure you were steadfast btw.

50 Clan Rank with 5 Ranks versus a 2(even perhaps 3 rank) Ogre Unit only killing 12 rats still causes you to have 4 Ranks. A rank is incomplete if there is less than 5 models in that rank.

My point was, 50 clanrats vs. ogres should have had 10 ranks, not 5. Clanrats aren't going to kill enough of them to win no matter what, so it becomes all about preserving your ranks long enough for something else to hit the Ogres in the flank.

But yeah, I have noticed that there is a tipping point where one casualty takes you from 'almost certain to hold' to 'nearly certain to break' in a most... ungentlemanly fashion. But then, WFB unit routinely take casualties that would leave real-world units tattered and running long before their tabletop equivalents do.

Case in point: a unit that is 'decimated in combat' is usually considered no longer combat-effective. "Decimated" comes from an ancient Roman punishment for a unit that broke and ran. The unit was formed into ranks after the battle... and the officers would kill every tenth man randomly. And, of course, 'decimal' is a Latin word for ten (or is that tenth? Latin class was a looooooooonnnng time ago...).

But yeah, 10% casualties = combat ineffective. Really hard, elite units might make it to 25%. Then they run and get chopped down in the mop-up.

This is an interesting topic. While it is stated some units have special rules ie swiftstride. Some armies have thier own rules like scurry away +1 to flee. So the OP did have a better chance to escape.

Dwarfs get -1 to flee and purse.

Id like to see more armies get their own rules like this. Perhaps as ogres are huge and have a long stride, maybe they should get swiftstride rule only on pursuit. Not to flee as they are dimwitted and likely to get cut down.

The scurry away is awesome as the rats can tell their losing badly and pre-empt and get out asap, hence +1. And dwarfs -1 to compensate their slowness.

So really, its not 'that' random, there are modifiers.

The whole game is random, but the modifiers make it that so much better

Keep in mind please that losing entire units is just part of the way the game flows now. Since you can't get half points for units, running an enemy off the board has been made more likely.

Kurce wrote:It was a horde of rats. 5 ranks 10 models wide.

Never do this with rats. You need steadfast not horde.

I also have to add, that if your in a phalanx, fighting an enemy and you lose heart, it is not always easy to run away. You, in the front rank, is scared sh!!tless by the carnage right in front of your face but the guys in the back rank is just pushing forward to help you with momentum as they can't properly see what is happening. Now you want to run away, so your shouting at the guys to turn tail. But your enemy is also shouting as well as the guys in the back rank! As your attention is no longer on the battle but on fleeing, you get skewered. The guy behind you sees this and starts to panic. Repeat until back rank hears or sees what is happening. Now, being in a phalanx with most probably a shield and a weapon, its no easy feat to turn around without accidently decapitating your fellows. Initiative and movement are really small factors in this scenario and it reflects in the rules. As stated above, not everyone is killed. The unit is just combat innefective.

The reason why I value is added in 40k is because of the loose squads they fight in makes it easier to use your own initiative and flee. No one is standing literally shoulder to shoulder with you.

I was playing against my friends empire. I had about 8 warriors with a bsb exalted hero charge his big block of swordsmen, about 6 wide and +6 long with a warrior priest and a captain bsb. I challenge and win the exalted hero get 4 overkill and kill 3 swordsmen with the rest warriors. He kills one warrior. My combat res is 8, while his is 10 for getting one kill, 3 ranks, +3 ranks for crown of command, bsb, banner, and some other stuff. I lose combat even though I won a challenge, got bunch of overkill, and clearly did more wounds and his 1. I fail both tests and get chased down. Lamest way to lose combat, all because of ranks and that crown of command.

Your 8 warriors charged his 36+ unit, and you are surprised you lost? Really?

Was that using current Empire book? What you are describing sounds like the Griffon Standard. If so, the outcome should have been totally different.

UltraPrime wrote:Your 8 warriors charged his 36+ unit, and you are surprised you lost? Really?

No I was expecting to win beacause I caused more wounds, I would of won if he did not get +3 extra for combat res for his ranks for something he had. I just got started in fantsy and it confuses me that I can do a ton of wounds than my opponent and still lose combat.

If we are discussing rules that seem dumb. Mine is that the standard bearer(or BSB) is killed when the unit flees from combat. I could understand if the flag was lost and you place the bearer with a bannerless model, but apparently carrying a flag makes you prone to suicide. I know the rules say the bearer heroically defends the flag to the last, but why doesn't he leave it and book it with everyone else? Why, in this apparently heroic fight over the flag, does he not take anyone with him?

Obviously, everyone in the Warhammer world has this urge to impale himself on a banner and does so at the first opportunity(when everyone else runs away from the enemy).

It especially sucks for Ogres. Their banners are not cheap, let alone the guy carrying it!

Tzeentchling9 wrote:If we are discussing rules that seem dumb. Mine is that the standard bearer(or BSB) is killed when the unit flees from combat. I could understand if the flag was lost and you place the bearer with a bannerless model, but apparently carrying a flag makes you prone to suicide. I know the rules say the bearer heroically defends the flag to the last, but why doesn't he leave it and book it with everyone else? Why, in this apparently heroic fight over the flag, does he not take anyone with him?

Obviously, everyone in the Warhammer world has this urge to impale himself on a banner and does so at the first opportunity(when everyone else runs away from the enemy).

It especially sucks for Ogres. Their banners are not cheap, let alone the guy carrying it!

Well, you have to remember that the flag is more than just a simple flag; it represents the spirit of the unit. It's something to rally around when things are looking grim. It's something to inspire you as you see it surge forward towards the enemy. Why do you think people make such a big deal about not letting a flag touch the ground or to hang it upside down or to desecrate it, disrespect it, etc? It's a symbol for people.

So, naturally, if you're going to have someone carry this symbol, you want to have the most dedicated person carry it, right? How do you think everyone is going to feel if they see that flag running backwards, away from the enemy? They'll probably be thinking that all is lost and that they too should get the heck out of there. But if they see that flag standfast and hold out before the enemy? Well, maybe things aren't too bad and they should stick around and gut it out too.

That's my take on it.

EDIT: Oh wait, I just re-read your post and I missed some things. Why doesn't he take out anyone else as he goes down fighting? Yeah, that's probably just to simplify the rules then.

Ultrafool wrote:I was playing against my friends empire. I had about 8 warriors with a bsb exalted hero charge his big block of swordsmen, about 6 wide and +6 long with a warrior priest and a captain bsb. I challenge and win the exalted hero get 4 overkill and kill 3 swordsmen with the rest warriors. He kills one warrior. My combat res is 8, while his is 10 for getting one kill, 3 ranks, +3 ranks for crown of command, bsb, banner, and some other stuff. I lose combat even though I won a challenge, got bunch of overkill, and clearly did more wounds and his 1. I fail both tests and get chased down. Lamest way to lose combat, all because of ranks and that crown of command.

Wait, what? How does the Crown of Command give an extra +3 CR for ranks? All it does is make the character (and thus the unit) Stubborn, which only comes into play if he looses combat!

He lost by two by my count, mate. You got suckered.


(I'll concede the point that he almost certainly would have held with Stubborn 9 rerollable. But then the exalted would have taken out either the Priest or the BSB next round, and once both those are gone they are on Steadfast 8s without rerolls. The 8 Warriors plus Exalted very well could pull this one off; Chaos Warriors really are that nasty!)

Movement was clearly designed to get you into combat and move you around the table. When you took the random aspect out of charges and such, movement was MUCH more powerful and you saw slow races simply have to rely on gunlines and war machines.

It's one thing I like that's different than 40K. A single Skaven Slave CAN, armed only with a slice of cheese, defeat 10000 Bloodletters and Khorne himself (although damn unlikely). Because nearly every aspect of the game is random. In 40K there are matchups that are literally impossible--you can't hurt them, you don't get to roll. Which is why you see a lot more fluff questions here, because it's much harder to absolutely gimp your army.

Whether it's realisitc or not that a guy with a stick can take out a tank doesn't matter so much to me as the fact that you're not completely screwed because you don't have the right type of troops or gear for your enemy.

By that same token, you're going to run into situations where Jason beats Goliath. If you were placing odds on that happening, you'd always bet for Goliath, but it doesn't change the fact it's POSSIBLE for Jason to win.


Personally, I don't like a lot of the combat resolution stuff because IMHO it seems to favor mass models. But I don't have a solution and I understand why they do at least some of it.

DukeRustfield wrote:By that same token, you're going to run into situations where Jason beats Goliath. If you were placing odds on that happening, you'd always bet for Goliath, but it doesn't change the fact it's POSSIBLE for Jason to win.

I wouldn't have bet against Goliath either, given that it was David, not Jason who killed him.