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pretre wrote:

daveNYC wrote:Two points on the attack on Prospero:
1) ATS specifically says that the Wolves started an orbital bombardment of the city, and they were only saved because the of kine shield which was always maintained over the city.

Scroll up a couple posts. PB has a different account of the orbital bombardment and such.

2) The only attempt by Russ to communicate with Magnus that is recorded in either book is him talking to the main character in PB. I know that Russ is a primitive screwhead, but he was aware of this new 'vox' technology that all the cool kids had, right? Or maybe an astropath? How about seeing if one of his Rune Priests could get in touch? Anything?

It goes both ways. Magnus was too busy sitting there and moping to vox up to the fleet and say 'Hey, whatcha doinnnn?'

The blame falls on both of them for what happened.

We shouldn't argue over who nuked whose city from orbit, let's just agree that we're both wrong.

Just Dave wrote:I'm not denying his flaws in his character etc. (see my Primarch ranking thread for example), but his actions at Prospero are very reasonable I'd say from the surrounding circumstances.

It's not really the actual events on Prospero that annoy me (you can't stop the machinations of Tzeench, after all), but rather the aftermath. Russ discovers that he was tricked and manipulated, but doesn't seem to display any real understanding of it (other than covering up the evidence by forcing Kasper into cryo-sleep). It's this penchant for willful blind ignorance that grinds my gears.

Omegus wrote:

Just Dave wrote:I'm not denying his flaws in his character etc. (see my Primarch ranking thread for example), but his actions at Prospero are very reasonable I'd say from the surrounding circumstances.

It's not really the actual events on Prospero that annoy me (you can't stop the machinations of Tzeench, after all), but rather the aftermath. Russ discovers that he was tricked and manipulated, but doesn't seem to display any real understanding of it (other than covering up the evidence by forcing Kasper into cryo-sleep). It's this penchant for willful blind ignorance that grinds my gears.

Russ is the loyal Alpharius. They both made the wrong choice, and instead of trying to make up for that, they embraced it instead.

We still haven't found out what A/O's reaction to the end of the HH is. Maybe he goes loco, maybe he decides to try and fix things, maybe he says screw it Chaos 4 the win. Hasn't been covered, might not be covered.

By the end of PB, Russ should already have an inkling that something's up, and at the current point in the series (post Istvaan V) the next time we see him in a book, he should know that Magnus' warning was correct.

Ideally, the end of PB should have taken place post-Istvaan. That would have allowed some revelation from Russ as to his feelings about what he did (skald dude is being frozen, so Russ could open up without worrying about it getting out).

And the figure in the dream was a (weak) avatar of all four powers.

daveNYC wrote:We still haven't found out what A/O's reaction to the end of the HH is. Maybe he goes loco, maybe he decides to try and fix things, maybe he says screw it Chaos 4 the win. Hasn't been covered, might not be covered.

Exactly!

People seem to forget/overlook this ALL the time...

daveNYC wrote:

By the end of PB, Russ should already have an inkling that something's up, and at the current point in the series (post Istvaan V) the next time we see him in a book, he should know that Magnus' warning was correct.

Ideally, the end of PB should have taken place post-Istvaan. That would have allowed some revelation from Russ as to his feelings about what he did (skald dude is being frozen, so Russ could open up without worrying about it getting out).

That would have been nice...

daveNYC wrote:We still haven't found out what A/O's reaction to the end of the HH is. Maybe he goes loco, maybe he decides to try and fix things, maybe he says screw it Chaos 4 the win. Hasn't been covered, might not be covered.

By the end of PB, Russ should already have an inkling that something's up, and at the current point in the series (post Istvaan V) the next time we see him in a book, he should know that Magnus' warning was correct.

Ideally, the end of PB should have taken place post-Istvaan. That would have allowed some revelation from Russ as to his feelings about what he did (skald dude is being frozen, so Russ could open up without worrying about it getting out).

And the figure in the dream was a (weak) avatar of all four powers.

I think that's very well said, including regarding Alpharius/Omegon and certainly I would also like to see Russ' reaction to the truth of Magnus' reaction...
Personally, I imagine being Russ he would still willingly serve the Emperor, but would have second thoughts about who he's actually serving and how omniscient the Emperor really is; maybe that links to the Space Wolves now serve humanity rather than the Emperor/Imperium?
That's a really cool thought though, I've never thought about how Russ would deal with the aftermath - great idea other-Dave.

Whilst it wouldn't surprise me if it was true, I'm wondering what your evidence is for that statement, particularly considering it's the crux of this thread.

Nothing really solid, just bits and pieces that manage to hang together, and nothing that really says that it's not the case.


1) It is a daemon, because the Sister weakens it. So at least there's no worry that it was the Deceiver.
2) It calls itself the Primordial Annihilator. Obviously a tie into ATK and Legion, but a bit of an unusual name or title for a daemon. Most of them are something like G'Rerrs't the Tricky/Bloody/Sexy/Yucky (depending on patron).
3) Don't have the book in front of me, but I don't remember it gloating about how it's master will be pleased.
4) It was also remarkably well behaved for a daemon. Spoke in complete sentences, didn't drool, vomit blood, light things on fire, get naked, or track filth all over the place. My personal opinion is that single aspect daemons have a harder time from preventing the innate corruption of their patron from showing.
5) The HH period is unique in that it is one of the few times in existance when all four powers were pulling together as a team.
6) Narratively, haveing it be a Chaos Voltron helps make the Wolves v. Sons death match more interesting. Having the conflict be the result of some very minor (relative to the outcome) Tzeentch string pulling is kind of weak. Far sexier is if it required the full efforts of all the powers. Khorne to increase the Russ and the Wolves' battle lust and hate of psykers, Slaanesh to increase the Sons' pride in their powers, Tzeentch for the long term planning and misdirection, and Nurgle for, um, style? It's not a party if Nurgle isn't there.

Like I said, no real evidence for, but not much against either, so I figure it's as good a hypothesis as any. And really, you've got two loyal legions cutting each other's throats. You really want a big bad to be behind it.

daveNYC wrote:Nothing really solid, just bits and pieces that manage to hang together, and nothing that really says that it's not the case.


1) It is a daemon, because the Sister weakens it. So at least there's no worry that it was the Deceiver.
2) It calls itself the Primordial Annihilator. Obviously a tie into ATK and Legion, but a bit of an unusual name or title for a daemon. Most of them are something like G'Rerrs't the Tricky/Bloody/Sexy/Yucky (depending on patron).
3) Don't have the book in front of me, but I don't remember it gloating about how it's master will be pleased.
4) It was also remarkably well behaved for a daemon. Spoke in complete sentences, didn't drool, vomit blood, light things on fire, get naked, or track filth all over the place. My personal opinion is that single aspect daemons have a harder time from preventing the innate corruption of their patron from showing.
5) The HH period is unique in that it is one of the few times in existance when all four powers were pulling together as a team.
6) Narratively, haveing it be a Chaos Voltron helps make the Wolves v. Sons death match more interesting. Having the conflict be the result of some very minor (relative to the outcome) Tzeentch string pulling is kind of weak. Far sexier is if it required the full efforts of all the powers. Khorne to increase the Russ and the Wolves' battle lust and hate of psykers, Slaanesh to increase the Sons' pride in their powers, Tzeentch for the long term planning and misdirection, and Nurgle for, um, style? It's not a party if Nurgle isn't there.

Like I said, no real evidence for, but not much against either, so I figure it's as good a hypothesis as any. And really, you've got two loyal legions cutting each other's throats. You really want a big bad to be behind it.

Wow. Really well said and analysed man.
Completely agree with all of that except for the latter part of #6 possibly.
Regarding #3, having recently re-read the book, I don't recall that either, so spot on man.
Regarding #2, that could link with A Thousand Sons I guess in that the Daemon that contacts Magnus there does refer to itself with a name; whether that suggests its Tzeentch itself or a daemon I dunno though; so that may or may not support your theory depending on if the one from A Thousand Sons was a Daemon or Tzeentch itself. Then again, if it was an amalgamation of the 4 gods, that would also explain how it can't have a name as it's not one entity...

Great theory other-Dave, definitely convinced me.

daveNYC wrote:We still haven't found out what A/O's reaction to the end of the HH is. Maybe he goes loco, maybe he decides to try and fix things, maybe he says screw it Chaos 4 the win.

Who cares what he was thinking right after the Heresy ended. 10 thousand years later, he's drinking chaos milkshakes made out of ground-up babies while surfing to work on a daemon while twirling his mustache.

DarknessEternal wrote:Who cares what he was thinking right after the Heresy ended. 10 thousand years later, he's drinking chaos milkshakes made out of ground-up babies while surfing to work on a daemon while twirling his mustache.

Umm, maybe his legion is but we're not even entirely sure of that. Current fluff says 10k years later, Alph is dead.

pretre wrote:Current fluff says 10k years later, Alph is dead.

Not exactly. Current fluff says Guilliman shot someone from across the battlefield that he thought might have been Alpharius. He wasn't even sure himself.

DarknessEternal wrote:

pretre wrote:Current fluff says 10k years later, Alph is dead.

Not exactly. Current fluff says Guilliman shot someone from across the battlefield that he thought might have been Alpharius. He wasn't even sure himself.

Sure, we can say that. There's nothing currently that shows A or O 'chaosing' it up though. Their legion may be a little deviant, but word of them has been lacking. Certainly no baby milkshakes.

DarknessEternal wrote:

daveNYC wrote:We still haven't found out what A/O's reaction to the end of the HH is. Maybe he goes loco, maybe he decides to try and fix things, maybe he says screw it Chaos 4 the win.

Who cares what he was thinking right after the Heresy ended. 10 thousand years later, he's drinking chaos milkshakes made out of ground-up babies while surfing to work on a daemon while twirling his mustache.

Huh? Of course we care. Or at least are interested. Or are interested in pretending to care. Look, 10,000 years later, none of the characters in any of the books are still around in any meaningful way. The loyal primarchs are all lost or dead, the traitor ones are either chilling in the eye, dead or whatever it is that A/O is up to, and Bjorn is the only marine still around and he sleeps for a century and then gets woken up to watch the Wolves drink for a night.*

We already know how the Horus Heresy ends. The reason we care enough to read these books is because, hopefully, there is some connection to the setting and/or characters involved. Because of that, we should find what A/O, Russ and the rest of that highly disfunctional family were thinking and doing at the time. Just to show how wrong your statement is, you say that A/O went full dark side. But because we know something of his motives for backing Horus, it's not cut and dried that he's drinking fetus-shakes on his morning commute. Indeed, given what we were told about the Alpha Legion all their actions are now open to all sorts of interesting analysis. What did they choose to do after the Heresy? Did they make the same choice? Sexy fun theory: Did Alpharius and Omegon choose to go different ways, one backing Chaos for real, the other sticking with the super-sekret pro-Imperium black ops route? And if that was the case, which one did Guilliman fight and kill?


* - Think about it, every time you wake up, you have to go to a frat party where you can't drink and then tell a story about how your best friend left you.

Damn it, now I really want a baby milkshake.

pretre wrote:

DarknessEternal wrote:

pretre wrote:Current fluff says 10k years later, Alph is dead.

Not exactly. Current fluff says Guilliman shot someone from across the battlefield that he thought might have been Alpharius. He wasn't even sure himself.

Sure, we can say that. There's nothing currently that shows A or O 'chaosing' it up though. Their legion may be a little deviant, but word of them has been lacking. Certainly no baby milkshakes.

That's probably because they operate in secret. Operating in secret usually means no one knows. The fact that There's no confirmed kill on Alpharius or Omegon in the fluff means they aren't dead yet.