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*I'm just writing this so I don't give away any spoilers within the thread preview thing-a-ma-bob*

Obviously this is going to contain some spoilers to a certain part of Prospero Burns, so if you haven't read it I would really advise you don't partake in this thread as I know I at least would rather avoid including loads of spoiler tags in every post...

-------

Anyways, onto my main question:
- Who/what is exactly is the figure from Kasper Hawsers dream?

I've just finished reading Prospero Burns (which is a great novel) for the 2nd time and I'm still unsure as to what the figure from the dream actually was; was it a Daemon? A (part of a) Chaos God? An Alpha Legionnaire?!
Obviously it disguises itself as several figures, including Horus, but I'm still left wondering what it actually was?
It wasn't Horus or Amon themselves obviously and it definitely appears to be a Daemon, in which case surely it's a very powerful Daemon. Then, also, if it's a Daemon, which (if any) god is it aligned to? The scheming and involvement with the Thousand Sons would suggest Tzeentch, but then again, there's a lot of flies emanating from it, which may suggest Nurgle or may simple be a result of the corruption of Chaos...
Judging by its power and influence, I wouldn't be surprised if it was a Chaos God (again, Tzeentch?) and/or a fragment of this Chaos God.

So, I ask again who/what exactly was the figure from Kasper Hawsers dream?

I had assumed that it was a Great Unclean One based on the description of the daemon.

As to why, it could have always been a case of Nurgle realizing that Tzeentch wanted the Thousand Sons for his own, and trying to ramp up the violence of the SW to wipe them out. Of course, in doing so, it played right into Tzeentch's plans.

*I'm just writing this so I don't give away any spoilers within the thread preview thing-a-ma-bob*

Oh, if people could put something like that (maybe even exactly that) at the beginning of their posts that'd be great too.

Personally, it never really struck me as a great unclean one, definitely more Tzeentchian IMHO. Then again, that's a pretty good theory as to why it could be a GuO...

I thought it actually said who it was....

Just some daemon servant.

That's not really very specific. That's akin to saying "Chaos did it." Well duh.

Omegus wrote:That's not really very specific. That's akin to saying "Chaos did it." Well duh.

Spoiler:

SickSix wrote:I thought it actually said who it was....
I thought it was the Primordial Annihilator?

DarknessEternal wrote:

Omegus wrote:That's not really very specific. That's akin to saying "Chaos did it." Well duh.

Spoiler:

SickSix wrote:I thought it actually said who it was....
I thought it was the Primordial Annihilator?

Spoiler:

Primordial Annihilator is a fancy name for Chaos. It isn't something new or singular.

This. Its a catch-all phrase used by humans of the heresy era that don't fully understand what chaos is and what daemons are, etc.

Heresy-era humans just thought of Warp denizens as funky xenos (and there are plenty of alien species as strange as daemons, so it's a fair assumption).

If anything, "Chaos" is the catch-all phrase du jour. I think PA was a term used by the Cabal? Don't recall exactly where I first saw it used.

either chaos undivided, or the changeling. The changeling is a special daemon of tzeentch that can assume any form perfectly. He's a 5 pt upgrade from a pink horror, with a really nifty ability!

I still think it was Horus because, Russ said that all of the primarchs used spies to spie on their brothers. What better way to truly turn Russ against Magnus then making him believe Magnus got one of his spies so close to Russ's wolves. While, it is actually Horus learning counter strategy on the wolves for the assault on Terra. Remember Horus was a tactician so he is going to make a back up plan for if the sons don't destroy the wolves and vice versa. This is my guess.

Nope, don't think so. Horus wasn't the architect of the Heresy, he was just the figurehead everyone rallied behind. He had very little direct influence over the events that transpired, everything that occurred was pretty much a result of circumstance or the machinations of the chaos gods and their servants. The only reason that Horus succeeded in forming a rebellion in the first place was because events were engineered to his advantage, he really was just another pawn to the gods.

You'll also note that Russ was by no means turned against Magnus. The book makes it pretty clear that Russ cares very much for his brother, and that his demands for Magnus censure and the ban on sorcery was to protect him from messing with something he (and everyone else) didn't really comprehend. Russ was filling the role of protective older brother. Besides that, its made clear that every legion has its spies, why would Magnus spying on Russ turn Russ against Magnus if everyone, including Russ, is trying to do the same.

Omegus wrote: I think PA was a term used by the Cabal?

They did. That's what they called Chaos. The Eldar told them to call it that.

chaos0xomega wrote:You'll also note that Russ was by no means turned against Magnus. The book makes it pretty clear that Russ cares very much for his brother, and that his demands for Magnus censure and the ban on sorcery was to protect him from messing with something he (and everyone else) didn't really comprehend. Russ was filling the role of protective older brother. Besides that, its made clear that every legion has its spies, why would Magnus spying on Russ turn Russ against Magnus if everyone, including Russ, is trying to do the same.

This theory, of course, contradicts the events in A Thousand Sons, where Russ is shown to be extremely at odds with Magnus, at one point ready to physically assault him until Lorgar intervenes. Demanding censure is no way of protecting someone, considering the Emperor's censure == death (just see Lorgar's home planet for an example of the Emperor's style of reproach). And his little pity speech of "please magnus, just stand down" what really stupid considering they were still just assuming Kasper was a TS plant at that point. If he really wanted to give his brother a chance, he would have used more reliable channels. Of course, when he arrived at Prospero and did in fact find the planet undefended, it didn't stop him from unleashing his Legion to slaughter absolutely everything in sight. And at the end of the book, when he knows he's been manipulated, he shows no sign of regret or remorse. I guess the Wolves' oft-repeated adage of "I recognize my failing, and will strive to correct it" doesn't apply to Russ.

Omegus wrote: Of course, when he arrived at Prospero and did in fact find the planet undefended, it didn't stop him from unleashing his Legion to slaughter absolutely everything in sight. And at the end of the book, when he knows he's been manipulated, he shows no sign of regret or remorse. I guess the Wolves' oft-repeated adage of "I recognize my failing, and will strive to correct it" doesn't apply to Russ.

Ahh, this thread again.

The planet was defended, but did not attack. If Magnus had contacted the fleet at any time, instead of being all dark and tragic in his tower, things probably would have gone differently.

The fleets were sent away, the orbital defenses were shut down, the PDF forces were doing parade rounds, and the Thousand Sons were out of armor and in their private quarters.

There is a bit of discrepancy about what the initial attack was like between ATS and PB.
PB says all defenses were down and allowed a leisurely approach, ATS says they were destroyed almost immediately and that the fleet appeared out of nowhere. ATS says that no one knew until the bombs were falling that the SW were coming (because Magnus concealed it). PB says that the SW made it really obvious and that the spireguard were fighting as soon as they hit the ground.

I suspect that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

The Spireguard was fighting them, but the Space Wolves note that they don't seem to be wearing any armor (but rather parade uniforms), and are armed with only rudimentary lasrifles with no heavy weapons of any sort. Wolves rampage for a good bit before organized pockets of resistance begin to form.

Omegus wrote:The Spireguard was fighting them, but the Space Wolves note that they don't seem to be wearing any armor (but rather parade uniforms),

Citation needed? Most guard don't look like they are wearing armor. Check Mordians. Their parade uniforms are the same as their combat uniforms.
Whoops, found it quickly:

The Spireguard had ballistic armour woven into their distinctive red coats,

and are armed with only rudimentary lasrifles with no heavy weapons of any sort. Wolves rampage for a good bit before organized pockets of resistance begin to form.

Some carried displacer fields or riot shields,

Their gun-carriages and fighting vehicles were well plated and, in some cases, shielded,

For their part, the Spireguards’ lasguns and autoweapons barely scratched the marauding Rout. Minor injuries were taken. Only crewserved
weapons and fighting vehicles offered any genuine hazard.

P351 in my version. Basically the first pages describing the beginning of the assault and the spireguard response.

Two points on the attack on Prospero:
1) ATS specifically says that the Wolves started an orbital bombardment of the city, and they were only saved because the of kine shield which was always maintained over the city.
2) The only attempt by Russ to communicate with Magnus that is recorded in either book is him talking to the main character in PB. I know that Russ is a primitive screwhead, but he was aware of this new 'vox' technology that all the cool kids had, right? Or maybe an astropath? How about seeing if one of his Rune Priests could get in touch? Anything?

daveNYC wrote:Two points on the attack on Prospero:
1) ATS specifically says that the Wolves started an orbital bombardment of the city, and they were only saved because the of kine shield which was always maintained over the city.

Scroll up a couple posts. PB has a different account of the orbital bombardment and such.

2) The only attempt by Russ to communicate with Magnus that is recorded in either book is him talking to the main character in PB. I know that Russ is a primitive screwhead, but he was aware of this new 'vox' technology that all the cool kids had, right? Or maybe an astropath? How about seeing if one of his Rune Priests could get in touch? Anything?

It goes both ways. Magnus was too busy sitting there and moping to vox up to the fleet and say 'Hey, whatcha doinnnn?'

The blame falls on both of them for what happened.

daveNYC wrote:
2) The only attempt by Russ to communicate with Magnus that is recorded in either book is him talking to the main character in PB. I know that Russ is a primitive screwhead, but he was aware of this new 'vox' technology that all the cool kids had, right? Or maybe an astropath? How about seeing if one of his Rune Priests could get in touch? Anything?

ATS very specifically gives us an accounting Magnus cutting himself off from all outside communications; outside being anything outside the room he was actually standing in.

Omegus wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:You'll also note that Russ was by no means turned against Magnus. The book makes it pretty clear that Russ cares very much for his brother, and that his demands for Magnus censure and the ban on sorcery was to protect him from messing with something he (and everyone else) didn't really comprehend. Russ was filling the role of protective older brother. Besides that, its made clear that every legion has its spies, why would Magnus spying on Russ turn Russ against Magnus if everyone, including Russ, is trying to do the same.

This theory, of course, contradicts the events in A Thousand Sons, where Russ is shown to be extremely at odds with Magnus, at one point ready to physically assault him until Lorgar intervenes. Demanding censure is no way of protecting someone, considering the Emperor's censure == death (just see Lorgar's home planet for an example of the Emperor's style of reproach). And his little pity speech of "please magnus, just stand down" what really stupid considering they were still just assuming Kasper was a TS plant at that point. If he really wanted to give his brother a chance, he would have used more reliable channels. Of course, when he arrived at Prospero and did in fact find the planet undefended, it didn't stop him from unleashing his Legion to slaughter absolutely everything in sight. And at the end of the book, when he knows he's been manipulated, he shows no sign of regret or remorse. I guess the Wolves' oft-repeated adage of "I recognize my failing, and will strive to correct it" doesn't apply to Russ.

There is very clear bias in both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. What we see of the wolves in Prospero Burns is largely at odds with what we see in A Thousand Sons, but that makes sense, given that much of the story of A Thousand Sons is told from the perspective of a Thousand Son marine or someone that shows them some sort of favor, and likewise Prospero Burns is told from the perspective of a Space Wolf or someone loyal to them. Also, the Emperor's censure =/= death. A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns both describe the Council of Nikaea as being a censure of Magnus and the Thousand Sons. Censure = a formal reprimand, I have no idea what definition you're working with, but it seems a bit extreme. As for Hauser being a plant, IIRC it didn't help the Wolves/Russ that Hauser himself came to believe he was a TS plant, particularly after the events on Nikaea. I agree that he should have gone with a more reliable sort of communication, but we also have to remember that he was under orders from Horus, who spoke with the authority of the Emperor, to destroy the Thousand Sons. His decision to use what he believed to be a direct link to Magnus very well could have been made in the hopes of covertly saving Magnus from death and circumventing Horus by placing Magnus in the Emperor's custody. We know that Russ said that he had no wish to destroy Magnus, so this makes sense, and Horus would have undoubtedly caught wind from his own spies within the Thousand Sons and/or Wolves if Russ did something so overt as to broadcast a plea for surrender to Magnus openly. Besides that, I believe its mentioned that standard communications with Prospero were impossible, due to the fact that no replies were coming to the messages being sent.

As for discrepancies regarding the defenses, I believe that is also explained by the lack of communication. Magnus lowered the defenses, but A Thousand Sons also made it clear (I thought) that he used his psychic abilities to block the Space Wolves approach in order to prevent the Thousand Sons from being able to effectively fight back against the Wolves. In order to prevent Prospero from learning of what was coming, he would have had to cut off all outside communication, otherwise someone would no doubt learn about what was coming. I believe his reasoning was something to the effect of he didn't want to deprive his father of another son and another legion of marines which he would need in the future (to fight the Heresy). None of the people of Prospero knew of the coming of the wolves, that is why the TS and the Spire Guard were not prepared to resist the Wolves, not because they were expecting to be offered a chance to surrender.

chaos0xomega wrote:There is very clear bias in both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns. What we see of the wolves in Prospero Burns is largely at odds with what we see in A Thousand Sons, but that makes sense, given that much of the story of A Thousand Sons is told from the perspective of a Thousand Son marine or someone that shows them some sort of favor, and likewise Prospero Burns is told from the perspective of a Space Wolf or someone loyal to them.

Yes, much of the story, the bulk being character development, but we see plenty of events occur from an omniscient, third-party perspective, as well as often delving including the characters' inner thoughts. Unfortunately, the only major character we never get real insight on is Leman Russ. We never see what he's thinking or how he's reacting to the events that transpire. Through the eyes of the Thousand Sons, we see him as an asshat; through the eyes of Kasper, we see him... as a moody asshat.

Of course, we see plenty of Magnus' inner thoughts, and what it amounts to is that he's so smart, he's slowed (hence the whole, one eye/no perspective thing).

Also, the Emperor's censure =/= death. A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns both describe the Council of Nikaea as being a censure of Magnus and the Thousand Sons. Censure = a formal reprimand, I have no idea what definition you're working with, but it seems a bit extreme.

To quote the Emperor: "Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord." One example of a "formal reprimand" we see from the Emperor is when he "formally reprimands" Lorgar by "formally reprimanding" the cities of his home planet with orbital bombardment. "Formally".

As for Hauser being a plant, IIRC it didn't help the Wolves/Russ that Hauser himself came to believe he was a TS plant, particularly after the events on Nikaea. I agree that he should have gone with a more reliable sort of communication, but we also have to remember that he was under orders from Horus, who spoke with the authority of the Emperor, to destroy the Thousand Sons.

Hauser was not convinced at all, even when speaking with Russ directly he voiced that he wasn't quite buying the idea. As for Horus' orders, Russ was ready to attack Magnus over a library (and the Rout did attack the Sons, they just got owned) long before the Council.

Saying something does not mean its true. If you punched me in the face, I could tell you that I don't hate you for doing it, even though I do. Several places have described the events at Nikaea as a 'censure of the Thousand Sons'.

In this case, I would also have to say I suppose Russ actions speak much louder than his words, but then again the side of him we see in Prospero Burns is completely at odds with his character in A Thousand Sons. My understanding (and IIRC its even described as such in the book) is that its all an act, a facade put on to frighten others rather than an intent to actually cause harm.

As for Hauser, I recall that he became rather convinced in the second half of the story that he was in fact planted with the Wolves, in part due to the recurring nightmare.

But then again, my reading comprehension, or lack there of is... well, it just is...

Its hard to really tell, but I think most of the clues point to Tzeentch or a Tzeentch influenced daemon. Does not really appear to be Nurgle's style to shape shift. I do not think Horus did it directly, because we know Horus was influenced and guided by the ruinous powers. I cannot remember where it was, but I once read that in the last few seconds of Horus' life the Emperor detected his old son again, and Horus was very sorry for what he did.

Definitely Tzeentch who probably also influenced the entire Heresy to displace the only being in the universe as powerful, if not more, than he.

Bongfu wrote:Its hard to really tell, but I think most of the clues point to Tzeentch or a Tzeentch influenced daemon. Does not really appear to be Nurgle's style to shape shift. I do not think Horus did it directly, because we know Horus was influenced and guided by the ruinous powers. I cannot remember where it was, but I once read that in the last few seconds of Horus' life the Emperor detected his old son again, and Horus was very sorry for what he did.

Definitely Tzeentch who probably also influenced the entire Heresy to displace the only being in the universe as powerful, if not more, than he.

That's the old fluff just like when Magnus storms in on the big E when he goes into the throne room, one of those "Dang dad your right all along I'm such an idiot!"

Omegus wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:Also, the Emperor's censure =/= death. A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns both describe the Council of Nikaea as being a censure of Magnus and the Thousand Sons. Censure = a formal reprimand, I have no idea what definition you're working with, but it seems a bit extreme.

To quote the Emperor: "Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord." One example of a "formal reprimand" we see from the Emperor is when he "formally reprimands" Lorgar by "formally reprimanding" the cities of his home planet with orbital bombardment. "Formally".

As for Hauser being a plant, IIRC it didn't help the Wolves/Russ that Hauser himself came to believe he was a TS plant, particularly after the events on Nikaea. I agree that he should have gone with a more reliable sort of communication, but we also have to remember that he was under orders from Horus, who spoke with the authority of the Emperor, to destroy the Thousand Sons.

Omegus, you appear to have (conveniently?) also failed to quote the Emperors closing statement which basically said if anyone disobeyed his decree at Nikaea they would feel the full force of his wrath etc. The blurb at the back of Prospero Burns sums up the Emperors anger; his son had disobeyed him, destroyed his "greatest work", caused his life and that of those within the Imperial Palace to be threatened and Magnus displayed to the Emperor that he had used the Powers of Chaos to A) contact the Emperor and B) save his Legion. It's been made clear in several places (Grammaticus/Legion, First Heretic/Lorgar, Last Church etc. etc.) that the Emperor is pretty heavy handed and not averse to Bloodshed, hence how he ordered his 'executioner' to reprimand Magnus, knowing how Magnus had disobeyed his decree despite being warned against it and how Magnus had used the Powers of Chaos which the Emperor had set out to destroy.
So we've got Russ, the Emperors executioner and arguably most dangerous Legion and Primarch (who appear to have had to turn arms against a Legion (missing?) before), a Legion that hates the use of Sorcery, ordered by a VERY pissed off and heavy-handed Emperor to reprimand Magnus, encouraged by Valdor, further encouraged by Horus and with (falsified) evidence that the Thousand Sons had planted a spy within the Space Wolves and used Powers of Sorcery (Amon/Wyrdmake) to attack the Space Wolves (Nikaea/Amon)...
I don't know about you, but I'm not surprised by the lengths and extent Russ went to when he attacked Prospero.
And lets be fair Omegus, you've never really hidden your dislike of Russ and the Wolves from what I've seen in previous discussions and that you think he's an "asshat"...
I'm not denying his flaws in his character etc. (see my Primarch ranking thread for example), but his actions at Prospero are very reasonable I'd say from the surrounding circumstances.

Anyways, BACK ON TOPIC...
Primordial Annihilator was the term used by the daemon/thing itself when it showed its identity in the dream IIRC, which I would think suggests its a bit more than a "catch-all phrase used by humans of the heresy era" IMHO...
So most of us think it's a Daemon of Tzeentch or part of Tzeentch itself? Possibly even an amalgamation of the 4 gods themselves then?