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BeefCakeSoup wrote:
The Emperor had his eye burned out, his face boiled off, his arm ripped out of its socket, his throat slit and felt utter despair as Horus dominated his Palace and mind upon his warship.

That was before he started fighting back.

After the Emperor decided to attack Horus, he needed only one attack.

Commissar Typhus wrote:

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Commissar Typhus wrote:

b1soul wrote:

infinite_array wrote:my bet's on Horus. Why?
Because he slapped down the Emperor. And even the Big E couldn't handle Horus at the height of Horus' power.

yes, the Emperor couldn't handle Horus, that's why he annihilated Horus...

+1

-5

The Emperor had his eye burned out, his face boiled off, his arm ripped out of its socket, his throat slit and felt utter despair as Horus dominated his Palace and mind upon his warship.

In a last ditch effort of focused power, the Emperor literally spent his life force to kill Horus in a blast so powerful that all 4 Chaos Gods recoiled from Horus. In a total display of how powerless the Emperor truly was against Chaos, they left Horus totally before the Emperor killed him, turning the once vile Warmaster into his former self to be brutally slaughtered by his own father. It was then, that a limp pitiful husk that was once the Emperor was taken by his son to sit on a throne of damnation, a shrine dedicated to the one thing he fought so long to abolish, religion.

The Emperor didn't win s***

He lost half his sons and watched his empire fall into abyss before succumbing to his wounds. The Imperium that exists now is a sickly mutation of what was intended.

Good point...

But a win is a win, the Imperium still stands (if not a little crookedly), and we all know Chaos would never destroy humanity or the universe because the Gods would have nothing left.

No skulls for the Skull Throne
No pawns in the Grand Scheme
No carriers for the diseases of Nurgle
No seduction for Slaanesh

Which clearly shows who actually won the conflict.

The IoM stands as a feeding pool lead by its husk Emperor against a tide of foes it can't hope to win against. The goal of Chaos was never to destroy the IoM, it was to break a non-feeding atheist lead empire into a religious buffet of twisted emotions to eternally feed upon. At least, this is what is largely suggested.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:The goal of Chaos was never to destroy the IoM, it was to break a non-feeding atheist lead empire into a religious buffet of twisted emotions to eternally feed upon. At least, this is what is largely suggested.

Surely humanity worshipping the Chaos Gods and seeking to please them would benefit them more than having a humanity that is trying to stop them? Horus winning wouldn't necessarily (the Cabal's crackpot theory aside) result in mankind mysteriously dying. Horus wanted to rule, not exterminate.

From our point of view, no, the Emperor didn't win anything in the long run (as far as we know). But he did defeat Horus infused with power from all the chaos gods. Not only defeating him, but obliterating him so that not even his soul survived. Did this act alone reduce the Emperor? Or was it the need for the act that caused it... maybe the Emperor just said eff-it and let humanity fall to ruin after that.

We'll never know.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Home Brew Nuke wrote:The Emperor could've beaten Horus more or less instantly if he'd given it his all. At least that's my take on it.

Quickly summoning all of you power, every last scrap of energy from your soul and focusing into the most angered, betrayed, hateful wrath the galaxy has ever seen isn't something you flip on or off during a fight.

There is no other single creature or entity in 40K existence that would of required 100% of the Emperor's power to be killed. Let alone one that could actually slay the Emperor.

The fight was brutal and close, had the Emperor acted a moment later Horus would of likely taken his head off.

Yes, but if he can use this energy on the brink of death he could have done it in his prime easily. It was clearly stated that he was holding back.

Anyone who thinks the Emperor could have "easily" destroyed Horus at any time has quite frankly never been within 20 feet of any codex detailing the event.

Furthermore, something no one else talks about, is that Horus had the chance to kill the Emperor once and for all... And hesitated, the Chaos Marines codex suggesting that this is because somwhere deep down, he still could not bring himself to kill his father.

The Emperor was fighting Horus both physically and psychically, Horus empowered by Chaos was on par with the Emperor, not laughably weaker as you all seem to think, if he were, then the Emperor could have used his allegedly vast powers to restrain Horus, but he couldn't. Because the difference in power was not that great.

And when the Emperor destroyed Horus' soul, the Chaos Gods had already left him, and the attack is still the main reason he has been confined to a chair for 10,000 years.

I actually disagree with Beef's assessment that only Horus could force the Emperor to exert his full power, if he were that powerful, he wouldn't need armies.

Nicholas wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Astartes are still immortal biologically speaking they dont age but theyll all die eventually in battle.

Nope, they do age although ageing process is not so incapacitating as it is for humans. What is true is that no one knows how many years they can leave as almost all die in battle.

As they get older they get that grizzeled veteran look with the tough skin and battle scars, but the age never gets to the point that it affects physical abilities or that they could die of it. Loken says it in Horus Rising and the only astartes that was shown as old and frail had been tortured and experimented on for years so we don't know what actually made him that way torture or time.

Loken says so because marines barely have 200 years being around kicking butts; nobody knew at that time if they were efectively immortal or just much more durable. The Grey Knights have marines that because of their age are considered not fit for battle and are asigned other tasks to continue their service to the chapter.

Source?

Grey Knights Codex page 24:

"A small few Librarians are fortunate enough to reach an age when their bodies can no longer meet the rigours of campaign. Such warriors are removed from the Chapter's fighting roster entirely, and retire to the labyrinthine corridors of the Sanctum Sanctorum to take up guardianship of its musty crypts"

That is, marines do retire due to age. That not many of them reach such an age is another matter...

Fair enough. Codex fluff is over Black Library so unless anyone can refute this I concede.

Keep in mind this is a codex written by Matt Ward who cooked up things like Kaldor Draigo

Keep in mind this is a codex written by Matt Ward who cooked up things like Kaldor Draigo

Yes but there are other older sources (I don't remember where , could some of the old ones here help me with this?) when it is specified that marines are affected by age. Let me do some research in my older books.

Matt Ward or not a codex is a codex in my opinion

Valdor would win, he is a better warrior than horus.

Of course thats within a scope of only a few books that i have read.

KingDeath wrote:The Emprah's fight vs Horus, as described by the Bill King's story, was a serious fight between two more or less evenly matched opponents "Desperately the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flicker between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as the battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual, psychic".

What is often described as "holding back" from the Emprah seems to be some kind of psychological constraint, he is unable ( not unwilling!) to truly give 100% against his beloved son: "Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster. Horus shows no such restraint."

When he finaly realises his mistake it still takes everything he has to destroy Horus: "He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He aims it at Horus, a lance of power destined for the madman's heart. Horus senses the upsurge of energy and turns to face the Emperor, a look of horror on his face."

Wasn't this when the Guardsman/Imperial Fist/Custodian ran into the room to get slaughtered by Horus, finally driving home for the Emperor the true depth of Horus' corruption? That's when he finally put aside his compassion (Star Child?) and punked Horus.

It's basically the Superman vs. Doomsday scenario. Superman has his whole mental block about killing people getting in his way, so they exchange blows back and forth, until he finally lets go and wtfpwns him with one punch.