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Hey guys I was wondering who you think would win in a fight between Horus juiced up with chaos powers and Valdor empowered by the Emperor (I imagine he could psychically improve his senses and strength and apply some form of force weapon esq effect to his weapon, i dont know if Valdor was a psyker but if so then I guess the Emperor could directly pour his juice into him). The reason I think this would actually make a close fight is if i recall correctly Valdor smacked pre heresy Horus down once before. Not to mention that the only reason the Emperor was mortally wounded by Horus was because of his compassion towards his son whereas Valdor would only see him as a threat to be expunged and go straight for the throat.
Ive just finished reading Horus rising for the first time and i still cant understand how Horus is the Emperors most favored scion, Valdor by all rights has been with him since his induction into the custodes, was presumably by his side for the majority of his time as a custodes being there chief and comparable or even superior to the Primarchs in terms of abilities.
Opinions appreciated as per usual.
C-3

Ok I dont think a Custodes is comparible to a Primarch the Primarchs are 20 beings of unique potency, Valdor is the equivelant of an extroadinarily hard Chapter master. Even unbuffed by chaos my money would be on Horus. Against a regular marine I would say valdor but a Primarch is out of his league, I would reckon even lorgar could survive long enough against him to kill him. The Custodes are superior to the astartes in most cases and yes valdor is the best of them but he's still got the same make up as a basic custodes.

With reguards to the son question well Valdor is a mortal man who has gone through a simillar process to the creation of the astartes, Horus and his brothers were created by the Emperor at the genetic level from his own genetic material, so while not natural and discounting the Sensei theory, are the Emperors closest thing to true offspring.

Ugly Green Trog wrote:Ok I dont think a Custodes is comparible to a Primarch the Primarchs are 20 beings of unique potency, Valdor is the equivelant of an extroadinarily hard Chapter master. Even unbuffed by chaos my money would be on Horus. Against a regular marine I would say valdor but a Primarch is out of his league, I would reckon even lorgar could survive long enough against him to kill him. The Custodes are superior to the astartes in most cases and yes valdor is the best of them but he's still got the same make up as a basic custodes.

With reguards to the son question well Valdor is a mortal man who has gone through a simillar process to the creation of the astartes, Horus and his brothers were created by the Emperor at the genetic level from his own genetic material, so while not natural and discounting the Sensei theory, are the Emperors closest thing to true offspring.

I cant remember which book it was in but Valdor did explicitly beet Horus in one on one combat, and arent the custodes rumored to be built on the Emperors geneseed ?. Plus being the personal guard of the Emperor for a ridiculously large amount of time im sure he picked up a few tips and tricks. But I agree with you that he wasnt specially bred to be as badass as the primarchs. I suppose a part of me wishes that the Custodes are the remainder of the forgotten loyalist legion with Valdor as there Primarch , Ultra cheese I know but a guy can dream right.

I've never heard of a time when Valdor ever fought Horus, but my bet's on Horus. Why?

Because he slapped down the Emperor. Seriously - a Custodes might be a little tougher than an Astartes, but even if he was 'powered' by the Emperor, he'd still be inferior to the Emperor himself. And even the Big E couldn't handle Horus at the height of Horus' power.

And the whole 'Custodes' being loyalists of one of the 2 forgotten legion... no. Someone would notice if Valdor happened to be a Primarch, since being a Demi-God is pretty freaking hard to miss. We're never given any supporting evidence in any of Valdor's appearances.

Astartes, and Custodes are still just Astartes, are mortals who have been upgraded. They still have limitations placed on them from what they once were. Primarchs were never mortal to begin with.

infinite_array wrote:I've never heard of a time when Valdor ever fought Horus, but my bet's on Horus. Why?

Because he slapped down the Emperor. Seriously - a Custodes might be a little tougher than an Astartes, but even if he was 'powered' by the Emperor, he'd still be inferior to the Emperor himself. And even the Big E couldn't handle Horus at the height of Horus' power.

And the whole 'Custodes' being loyalists of one of the 2 forgotten legion... no. Someone would notice if Valdor happened to be a Primarch, since being a Demi-God is pretty freaking hard to miss. We're never given any supporting evidence in any of Valdor's appearances.

It was said that Big E was holding back for most of the fight, but I still think Horus would win against Valdor.

infinite_array wrote:

And the whole 'Custodes' being loyalists of one of the 2 forgotten legion... no. Someone would notice if Valdor happened to be a Primarch, since being a Demi-God is pretty freaking hard to miss. We're never given any supporting evidence in any of Valdor's appearances.

Alpharius wants a word with you.

Valdor already beat Horus in a one-on-one duel pre-heresy.

The Emporer would have obliterated Horus if not for feeling compassion towards his son.

So Valdor+Jesus Juice=possible victory.

ChronoCupcake wrote:arent the custodes rumored to be built on the Emperors geneseed ?

No they are not, Custodes are not space marines, the process to make a custode is completely different to that of making marines.

Soladrin wrote:

infinite_array wrote:

And the whole 'Custodes' being loyalists of one of the 2 forgotten legion... no. Someone would notice if Valdor happened to be a Primarch, since being a Demi-God is pretty freaking hard to miss. We're never given any supporting evidence in any of Valdor's appearances.

Alpharius wants a word with you.

+1


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TrollPie wrote:Valdor already beat Horus in a one-on-one duel pre-heresy.

The Emporer would have obliterated Horus if not for feeling compassion towards his son.

So Valdor+Jesus Juice=possible victory.

I hear a lot about this duel but when did it actually happen ? seriously ive tried looking for a source EVERYWHERE, I reference it but for the life of me i have no idea where its from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daveNYC wrote:Astartes, and Custodes are still just Astartes, are mortals who have been upgraded. They still have limitations placed on them from what they once were. Primarchs were never mortal to begin with.

Astartes are still immortal biologically speaking they dont age but theyll all die eventually in battle.

Astartes are still immortal biologically speaking they dont age but theyll all die eventually in battle.

Nope, they do age although ageing process is not so incapacitating as it is for humans. What is true is that no one knows how many years they can leave as almost all die in battle.

Raulmichile wrote:

Astartes are still immortal biologically speaking they dont age but theyll all die eventually in battle.

Nope, they do age although ageing process is not so incapacitating as it is for humans. What is true is that no one knows how many years they can leave as almost all die in battle.

As they get older they get that grizzeled veteran look with the tough skin and battle scars, but the age never gets to the point that it affects physical abilities or that they could die of it. Loken says it in Horus Rising and the only astartes that was shown as old and frail had been tortured and experimented on for years so we don't know what actually made him that way torture or time.

daveNYC wrote:Astartes, and Custodes are still just Astartes, are mortals who have been upgraded. They still have limitations placed on them from what they once were. Primarchs were never mortal to begin with.

Custodes aren't Astartes. We don't know how Custodes are created, they could be made via a method similar to Astartes or a method similar to the Primarchs. What we do know is that they are superior to Astartes in every way possible (I believe this is stated in Nemesis) but that they are not good enough to best a Primarch in combat (also stated in Nemesis).

For those of you who don't know what I am referring to, there is a portion of the story in Nemesis where Valdor or Dorn is sparring/practicing combat skills, while the other is observing. Valdor has an inner dialogue with himself, that he wants to try his skill in melee combat against the Primarch, but he states even though he is superior to the Astartes and he could possibly hold off a Primarch for a short time, the Primarch would inevitably defeat him.

As they get older they get that grizzeled veteran look with the tough skin and battle scars, but the age never gets to the point that it affects physical abilities or that they could die of it. Loken says it in Horus Rising and the only astartes that was shown as old and frail had been tortured and experimented on for years so we don't know what actually made him that way torture or time.

Again, no Astartes has ever survived long enough (outside the Warp) for anyone to know the lifespan of a Marine. The average lifespan is stated to be ~200 years, since most Space Marines don't survive for more than that in combat.

Nicholas wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Astartes are still immortal biologically speaking they dont age but theyll all die eventually in battle.

Nope, they do age although ageing process is not so incapacitating as it is for humans. What is true is that no one knows how many years they can leave as almost all die in battle.

As they get older they get that grizzeled veteran look with the tough skin and battle scars, but the age never gets to the point that it affects physical abilities or that they could die of it. Loken says it in Horus Rising and the only astartes that was shown as old and frail had been tortured and experimented on for years so we don't know what actually made him that way torture or time.

Loken says so because marines barely have 200 years being around kicking butts; nobody knew at that time if they were efectively immortal or just much more durable. The Grey Knights have marines that because of their age are considered not fit for battle and are asigned other tasks to continue their service to the chapter.

Raulmichile wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Astartes are still immortal biologically speaking they dont age but theyll all die eventually in battle.

Nope, they do age although ageing process is not so incapacitating as it is for humans. What is true is that no one knows how many years they can leave as almost all die in battle.

As they get older they get that grizzeled veteran look with the tough skin and battle scars, but the age never gets to the point that it affects physical abilities or that they could die of it. Loken says it in Horus Rising and the only astartes that was shown as old and frail had been tortured and experimented on for years so we don't know what actually made him that way torture or time.

Loken says so because marines barely have 200 years being around kicking butts; nobody knew at that time if they were efectively immortal or just much more durable. The Grey Knights have marines that because of their age are considered not fit for battle and are asigned other tasks to continue their service to the chapter.

Source?

infinite_array wrote:And even the Big E couldn't handle Horus at the height of Horus' power.

I dont recall the book, but I recall reading that the big E could handle him easy, but he didnt want to hurt his son cos he loved him. Only when he was mortally wounded did he realise what he had to do, and then he promptly erased the guy from existence with a thought.

The emprah was surely turbo nails. He had to have been loathe to knack the lad Horus, as opposed to he couldnt, because surely if he had the strength to blast him out of existence AFTER he was wounded with a terrible blow, he could do it piece of cake before hand!

mattyrm wrote:

infinite_array wrote:And even the Big E couldn't handle Horus at the height of Horus' power.

I dont recall the book, but I recall reading that the big E could handle him easy, but he didnt want to hurt his son cos he loved him. Only when he was mortally wounded did he realise what he had to do, and then he promptly erased the guy from existence with a thought.

The emprah was surely turbo nails. He had to have been loathe to knack the lad Horus, as opposed to he couldnt, because surely if he had the strength to blast him out of existence AFTER he was wounded with a terrible blow, he could do it piece of cake before hand!

Unless you subscribe to the Dragonball Z theory of strength where anger caused by being wounded = MOAR POWAH!!!!

I think the Emperor proved he was superior to the Primarchs several times when he found them. For example, in the contest with Vulkan (see Promethean Sun for the latest version of that tale) the Emperor shows up with a Salamander that makes Vulkans look like a joke, even Vulkan wonders if he would have been able to kill one that big, and then when Vulkan nearly falls to his death, the Emperor is able to haul him AND his catch out of the chasm, much to Vulkan's surprise (I believe Vulkan commented to himself that he would not have been able to do the same).

The Emprah's fight vs Horus, as described by the Bill King's story, was a serious fight between two more or less evenly matched opponents "Desperately the Emperor summons his power and lashes out. Lightning flicker between the combatants. The stench of ozone fills the air. The Emperor leaps forward, sword raised. Weapons clash as the battle is joined on every level: physical, spiritual, psychic".

What is often described as "holding back" from the Emprah seems to be some kind of psychological constraint, he is unable ( not unwilling!) to truly give 100% against his beloved son: "Somehow he cannot bring his full force to bear on the Warmaster. Horus shows no such restraint."

When he finaly realises his mistake it still takes everything he has to destroy Horus: "He gathers every particle of his power, focuses it into a mighty bolt of pure force, more coherent than a laser, more destructive than an exploding sun. He aims it at Horus, a lance of power destined for the madman's heart. Horus senses the upsurge of energy and turns to face the Emperor, a look of horror on his face."

I believe Valdor was training Horus when he beat him... remember Horus was raised by the Emperor and his attendants, not on some random planet like the other Primarchs.

Lobukia wrote:I believe Valdor was training Horus when he beat him... remember Horus was raised by the Emperor and his attendants, not on some random planet like the other Primarchs.

Horus was scattered just like his brothers. He ended up closer though, and was the first to be discovered. That doesn't mean that he wasn't raised in part by Cthonian's, all we know for sure is that he was solo with the Emperor for about 30 years after his discovery.

Nicholas wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Astartes are still immortal biologically speaking they dont age but theyll all die eventually in battle.

Nope, they do age although ageing process is not so incapacitating as it is for humans. What is true is that no one knows how many years they can leave as almost all die in battle.

As they get older they get that grizzeled veteran look with the tough skin and battle scars, but the age never gets to the point that it affects physical abilities or that they could die of it. Loken says it in Horus Rising and the only astartes that was shown as old and frail had been tortured and experimented on for years so we don't know what actually made him that way torture or time.

Loken says so because marines barely have 200 years being around kicking butts; nobody knew at that time if they were efectively immortal or just much more durable. The Grey Knights have marines that because of their age are considered not fit for battle and are asigned other tasks to continue their service to the chapter.

Source?

Grey Knights Codex page 24:

"A small few Librarians are fortunate enough to reach an age when their bodies can no longer meet the rigours of campaign. Such warriors are removed from the Chapter's fighting roster entirely, and retire to the labyrinthine corridors of the Sanctum Sanctorum to take up guardianship of its musty crypts"

That is, marines do retire due to age. That not many of them reach such an age is another matter...

infinite_array wrote:my bet's on Horus. Why?
Because he slapped down the Emperor. And even the Big E couldn't handle Horus at the height of Horus' power.

yes, the Emperor couldn't handle Horus, that's why he annihilated Horus...

Raulmichile wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

Raulmichile wrote:

Astartes are still immortal biologically speaking they dont age but theyll all die eventually in battle.

Nope, they do age although ageing process is not so incapacitating as it is for humans. What is true is that no one knows how many years they can leave as almost all die in battle.

As they get older they get that grizzeled veteran look with the tough skin and battle scars, but the age never gets to the point that it affects physical abilities or that they could die of it. Loken says it in Horus Rising and the only astartes that was shown as old and frail had been tortured and experimented on for years so we don't know what actually made him that way torture or time.

Loken says so because marines barely have 200 years being around kicking butts; nobody knew at that time if they were efectively immortal or just much more durable. The Grey Knights have marines that because of their age are considered not fit for battle and are asigned other tasks to continue their service to the chapter.

Source?

Grey Knights Codex page 24:

"A small few Librarians are fortunate enough to reach an age when their bodies can no longer meet the rigours of campaign. Such warriors are removed from the Chapter's fighting roster entirely, and retire to the labyrinthine corridors of the Sanctum Sanctorum to take up guardianship of its musty crypts"

That is, marines do retire due to age. That not many of them reach such an age is another matter...

Fair enough. Codex fluff is over Black Library so unless anyone can refute this I concede.

chaos0xomega wrote:
For those of you who don't know what I am referring to, there is a portion of the story in Nemesis where Valdor or Dorn is sparring/practicing combat skills, while the other is observing. Valdor has an inner dialogue with himself, that he wants to try his skill in melee combat against the Primarch, but he states even though he is superior to the Astartes and he could possibly hold off a Primarch for a short time, the Primarch would inevitably defeat him.

Isn't that the part where Valdor knocks Horus silly and says something like "I don't fancy my chances" when Dorn wants to spar with him?

b1soul wrote:

infinite_array wrote:my bet's on Horus. Why?
Because he slapped down the Emperor. And even the Big E couldn't handle Horus at the height of Horus' power.

yes, the Emperor couldn't handle Horus, that's why he annihilated Horus...

+1

Commissar Typhus wrote:

b1soul wrote:

infinite_array wrote:my bet's on Horus. Why?
Because he slapped down the Emperor. And even the Big E couldn't handle Horus at the height of Horus' power.

yes, the Emperor couldn't handle Horus, that's why he annihilated Horus...

+1

-5

The Emperor had his eye burned out, his face boiled off, his arm ripped out of its socket, his throat slit and felt utter despair as Horus dominated his Palace and mind upon his warship.

In a last ditch effort of focused power, the Emperor literally spent his life force to kill Horus in a blast so powerful that all 4 Chaos Gods recoiled from Horus. In a total display of how powerless the Emperor truly was against Chaos, they left Horus totally before the Emperor killed him, turning the once vile Warmaster into his former self to be brutally slaughtered by his own father. It was then, that a limp pitiful husk that was once the Emperor was taken by his son to sit on a throne of damnation, a shrine dedicated to the one thing he fought so long to abolish, religion.

The Emperor didn't win s***

He lost half his sons and watched his empire fall into abyss before succumbing to his wounds. The Imperium that exists now is a sickly mutation of what was intended.

The Emperor could've beaten Horus more or less instantly if he'd given it his all. At least that's my take on it.

BeefCakeSoup wrote:

Commissar Typhus wrote:

b1soul wrote:

infinite_array wrote:my bet's on Horus. Why?
Because he slapped down the Emperor. And even the Big E couldn't handle Horus at the height of Horus' power.

yes, the Emperor couldn't handle Horus, that's why he annihilated Horus...

+1

-5

The Emperor had his eye burned out, his face boiled off, his arm ripped out of its socket, his throat slit and felt utter despair as Horus dominated his Palace and mind upon his warship.

In a last ditch effort of focused power, the Emperor literally spent his life force to kill Horus in a blast so powerful that all 4 Chaos Gods recoiled from Horus. In a total display of how powerless the Emperor truly was against Chaos, they left Horus totally before the Emperor killed him, turning the once vile Warmaster into his former self to be brutally slaughtered by his own father. It was then, that a limp pitiful husk that was once the Emperor was taken by his son to sit on a throne of damnation, a shrine dedicated to the one thing he fought so long to abolish, religion.

The Emperor didn't win s***

He lost half his sons and watched his empire fall into abyss before succumbing to his wounds. The Imperium that exists now is a sickly mutation of what was intended.

Good point...

But a win is a win, the Imperium still stands (if not a little crookedly), and we all know Choas would never destroy humanity or the universe because the Gods would have nothing left.

No skulls for the Skull Throne
No pawns in the Grand Scheme
No carriers for the diseases of Nurgle
No seduction for Slaanesh

The Emperor did defeat Horus.

Why the Emperor did not destroy him immediately is because he tried to reach the remnants of Horus' humanity. He tested Horus by allowing himself to be mauled, to see if Horus would not only try and defeat him, but destroy him, willingly. Once the battle got to this point the Emperor realized Horus was beyond hope and the Emperor obliterated him.

Remember as well, Horus was also infused with the power of all the chaos gods as their chosen warrior at the time of the battle. Yet the Emperor came out on top.

The chaos gods fear the Emperor's power in our reality.

It appears even the Emperor is all too human and causing the death of yet another son might have been the last straw... my opinion, but food for thought.

Home Brew Nuke wrote:The Emperor could've beaten Horus more or less instantly if he'd given it his all. At least that's my take on it.

Quickly summoning all of you power, every last scrap of energy from your soul and focusing into the most angered, betrayed, hateful wrath the galaxy has ever seen isn't something you flip on or off during a fight.

There is no other single creature or entity in 40K existence that would of required 100% of the Emperor's power to be killed. Let alone one that could actually slay the Emperor.

The fight was brutal and close, had the Emperor acted a moment later Horus would of likely taken his head off.