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AchillesFTW wrote:Still AP- means very little. The Fire Prism sacrifices one point for STR for AP4 which imo is way better. Also the Fire Prism is BS4 whereas the Spinner is BS3. The Nightspinner isn't very versatile and it can ONLY take on gaunts and orks.

You´re forgetting that it has rending. Also its a barrage weapon, so you can get arround cover saves easier which equals out the ap4 thing imo. The spinner is only bs3, but its main turret is twin linked, so that equals out aswell. The chin cannon would suffer from bs3 but idk if you really wanted one on a nightspinner.

It can take on anything on foot. The more goons the merrier, but it can still threaten anything. Difficult and Dangerous, plus rending, and pinning.

Yes please.

No need for upgrades, holofields IF you have the points and NEED to spend them on something.

Khe-Loc wrote:You´re forgetting that it has rending. Also its a barrage weapon, so you can get arround cover saves easier which equals out the ap4 thing imo.

True, 4+ cover saves will render high AP ineffective.

Murenius wrote:

Necrontyr40k wrote:Is there anything else in the Eldar codex that can fulfill their role? As far as I can see, no. So, they are valuable, at least in specific cases where what they bring is useful.

A dark reaper exarch with tempest launcher and fast shot lays down 3 small blast markers with STR 4 AP 3, which cuts down gaunts, guards and the likes pretty well. But a night spinner is harder to take down and a lot more mobile. 3 War walkers with EML are not bad at all since they give 6 STR4 AP 4 blast markers with pinning. And they come for 150 pts, which is exactly the cost of a night spinner with holo field.

I was thinking more in line of the immobilization effect. That is hard to replicate. Besides, dark reapers have other problems, which make them undesirable.

Walkers are a great unit but need LOS, and while pinning, do not scare people from moving. In a list of fast vehicles with crappy AV, firing indirect is more attractive than usual.

In this edition, there is a ton of 4+ cover saves, so AP matters only if better than 4.

If I´m correct, the monofilament rule is something that has never been there before.

Also its the only option for indirect fire in the eldar codex. Very usefull for keeping the fragile AV 12 of the eldar tanks out of the way. Twin linked help greatly for accuracy even if firing indirect.

Your point nullifies itself. Its a barrage weapon therefore it ignores cover saves, but its AP- so they would get their NORMAL saves anyway. Besides you only are AP1 on a roll of 6. Str 5 Ap4 is still better. Like I said, its mostly and only effective against large groups of gaunts and orks, anything else will be better off being hit by the fire prism.

AchillesFTW wrote:Your point nullifies itself. Its a barrage weapon therefore it ignores cover saves, but its AP- so they would get their NORMAL saves anyway. Besides you only are AP1 on a roll of 6. Str 5 Ap4 is still better. Like I said, its mostly and only effective against large groups of gaunts and orks, anything else will be better off being hit by the fire prism.

But yours doesn´t?

In the case of the prism there is a 4+ cover save. In case of the nightspinner there is an armour save that could be anything from 6+ to 2+ which might be ignored due to rendiing.

Whatever tho... It´s ok if you like the prism better. I have to agree that the prism is a good vehicle, but he nightspinner is not bad eighter. Just a matter of opinions and the point of this thread is to get as many of these opinions as possible.

AchillesFTW wrote:Your point nullifies itself. Its a barrage weapon therefore it ignores cover saves, but its AP- so they would get their NORMAL saves anyway. Besides you only are AP1 on a roll of 6. Str 5 Ap4 is still better. Like I said, its mostly and only effective against large groups of gaunts and orks, anything else will be better off being hit by the fire prism.

Barrages ignore cover only if the cover is from intervening terrain, because the shrapnel comes from the center of the blast. But area cover still provides protection.

So, with walker missiles AP4, both types of cover are effective, and so they get 4+ cover saves. Against spinners, the intervening cover is not effective but spinners have AP-, so non-MEQ get their 4+ or 5+ armor, while area cover get 4+. So, for any non-MEQ spinners are equal or better. For MEQ, they will take armor saves anyway, so AP4 still does not matter. Like I said, AP4 is largely useless in 5th ed. due to cover rules.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

AchillesFTW wrote:Your point nullifies itself. Its a barrage weapon therefore it ignores cover saves, but its AP- so they would get their NORMAL saves anyway. Besides you only are AP1 on a roll of 6. Str 5 Ap4 is still better. Like I said, its mostly and only effective against large groups of gaunts and orks, anything else will be better off being hit by the fire prism.

Barrages ignore cover only if the cover is from intervening terrain, because the shrapnel comes from the center of the blast. But area cover still provides protection.

So, with walker missiles AP4, both types of cover are effective, and so they get 4+ cover saves. Against spinners, the intervening cover is not effective but spinners have AP-, so non-MEQ get their 4+ or 5+ armor, while area cover get 4+. So, for any non-MEQ spinners are equal or better. For MEQ, they will take armor saves anyway, so AP4 still does not matter. Like I said, AP4 is largely useless in 5th ed. due to cover rules.

And with rending you´re still ignoring at least some of those 3+ armor saves that the prism wouldn´t even scratch...

Rending shot weapons are AP2 on a to-wound roll of 6. Not AP1, but still better than AP- versus vehicles if you can manage to turn up the 6s on your penetration rolls.

Still, it could be such a good counterbattery weapon if it were just str7 or 8 and AP6 or better. That's what the Eldar list needs--something that can fire back at psyfleman dreads, IG mobile artillery and vendettas. Not yet another str6 anti-horde weapon.

Unfortunarly the rend does not count as AP2 for armor penetration. Unless they changed something of course.

All those "what ifs" won´t help us eldar players sadly... But at least the nightspinner is something unique isn´t it?

I never leave home without a Night Spinner and would have 2 if GW didn't make you sever an arm to buy one. I could go on and on about it but I'll post that much

Great for slicing and dicing anything except non AV10-11 side vehicles.

Eh, Fire Prisms can TL to get a Str6 Ap3 Blast. Still It's lacking on Anti-Tank and if those firedragons ever get shot down and your kinda screwed over.

Besides I've been saying the whole time that Night Spinners are good against Gaunts and Orks anyway.

AchillesFTW wrote:Eh, Fire Prisms can TL to get a Str6 Ap3 Blast. Still It's lacking on Anti-Tank and if those firedragons ever get shot down and your kinda screwed over.

Besides I've been saying the whole time that Night Spinners are good against Gaunts and Orks anyway.

I feel like they are not only effective against hordes. I mean if I hit 5 terminators with the spinner, chances are I get a rending of and actually might take one down. In addition to that the opponent will think about moving that terminator squad, because chances are he will roll a one and loose another 40p model to the monofilament rule.

If you were playing a DoA Blood Angels army, you could hit 2 or maybe even 3 assault squads( lucky case I know). You might not kill that many with the atual blast(maybe 2 or 3) but your opponent will think about moving his marines, because he WILL loose more and with 20 - 30 guys moving, 5 or 6 are going down for sure.

After all its this psychological edge it gives you, that makes the nightpinner so attractive imho.

BTW would those jump pack guys have to test twice due to their jumppacks or are they only in diff/dang terrain at the start of their movement?

Hm. Pity that those who have some actuall game experience with/against Nightspinner posts less than our mighty theoreticians.

I am a marine player and one of our local eldars, who is also a decent player, fields one frequently along with 2 falcons and three wave serpents (+/- other toys depending on point level) in his pure mech.

Few things which I saw here posted which I think are really not true at all:

Psychological weapon -
If you get intimidated by Nightspinner and play accordingly to that, youre doing something wrong and Eldar player profits. There are things in Eldar list which you should take into consideration and deploy + play to counter them more effectively - Fire dragons, Warwalkers, Any Eldrad mini deathstar... Nightspinner is very mobile and his rules give him freedom to cover pretty much any spot on the table. He will hit you, you cant change that and if you will try to evade it instead of real damage dealers you are helping your oponnent. Also there is nothing to consider about movement, it is not for one turn - it lasts unil you actually move - so there is no much of a point for cc infantry to consider whether move or not.

NOT effective against mech
Ever played against static gunline? Or razor spam? Typical deployment usually looks like two lines of razorbacks, Leman russes each near other, dreadnoughts/speeders/rhinos/predators covering behind each other...Large blasts in these situations usually hits something from 2 - 4 vehicles and twin-linked actually helps more when you try it to be "less" acurate and scatter from the centre of vehicle to give better chance at covering 4 vehicles - this gives you about 50/50 chance to imobilise one vehicle (in most cases) which could potentionaly ruin next movement phase for hundred of points of other stuff - this is way more scary then some extra 5 dead orks. Even static tanks sitting near each other will need to move when you spread your grav tanks because they wont be able to pivot on the spot. Star engines can be real pain here.

Effective only against hordes
Casualties by point value are often pretty similiar when you hit spreaded tacticals squad, boyz or non SS terminators - one elite infantry with failed dangerous terrain test is worthy of several orks and even on squads form 5 - 10 one or two rending wounds usually shows up.

When playing against Nightspinner there are few things you should take into consideration to diminish its effects at minimum, so you could keep on ignoring it, which is IMHO best tactics:

Pivoting vehicles at one spot makes your vehicle count as moving, but is NOT described as moving in BRB at all, so it odes not trigger terrain test.

Embarking OR disembarking again makes yor infantry count like if they moved, but does NOT count as actuall moving. So if your disembarked squad gets hit by web, you can embark safely, ride somewhere, disembark and blast stuff and embark again - all without triggering dangerous terrain test - unless you get assaulted or tankshocked (what is exactly what should decent eldar do unless its melta squad ).

Invunerable saves can be taken against wounds from dangerous terrain tests - people seem to forget about this one sometimes.

Independent characters on bikes have skilled rider - so they can all reroll failed dangerous terrain tests.

Jolrael wrote:Hm. Pity that those who have some actuall game experience with/against Nightspinner posts less than our mighty theoreticians.

I am a marine player and one of our local eldars, who is also a decent player, fields one frequently along with 2 falcons and three wave serpents (+/- other toys depending on point level) in his pure mech.

Few things which I saw here posted which I think are really not true at all:

Psychological weapon -
If you get intimidated by Nightspinner and play accordingly to that, youre doing something wrong and Eldar player profits. There are things in Eldar list which you should take into consideration and deploy + play to counter them more effectively - Fire dragons, Warwalkers, Any Eldrad mini deathstar... Nightspinner is very mobile and his rules give him freedom to cover pretty much any spot on the table. He will hit you, you cant change that and if you will try to evade it instead of real damage dealers you are helping your oponnent. Also there is nothing to consider about movement, it is not for one turn - it lasts unil you actually move - so there is no much of a point for cc infantry to consider whether move or not.

I have to agree with everything other than the psychological point. It´s true, that there is not much point in trying to avoid the spinner, but who wouldn´t be stressed if his guys he wants to move are in dangerous terrain.

If you have to take your tests, and you loose something like a powerfist sergeant or your meltergunner, it´s going to piss you of and you WILL think about killing the nightspinner because you are afraid it might happen again.

Khe-Loc wrote:
I have to agree with everything other than the psychological point. It´s true, that there is not much point in trying to avoid the spinner, but who wouldn´t be stressed if his guys he wants to move are in dangerous terrain.

If you have to take your tests, and you loose something like a powerfist sergeant or your meltergunner, it´s going to piss you of and you WILL think about killing the nightspinner because you are afraid it might happen again.

Then this is one of those moments when powerful eldar witch entered mind war with you and you have failed your leadership test. This is a war soldier! And while I will be sending in the next wave to their deaths be a good sergeant and bring me cooled beer.

Jolrael wrote:

Khe-Loc wrote:
I have to agree with everything other than the psychological point. It´s true, that there is not much point in trying to avoid the spinner, but who wouldn´t be stressed if his guys he wants to move are in dangerous terrain.

If you have to take your tests, and you loose something like a powerfist sergeant or your meltergunner, it´s going to piss you of and you WILL think about killing the nightspinner because you are afraid it might happen again.

Then this is one of those moments when powerful eldar witch entered mind war with you and you have failed your leadership test. This is a war soldier! And while I will be sending in the next wave to their deaths be a good sergeant and bring me cooled beer.

Thats what Ursakar Creed said, before my seer counil chopped down his command squad last game^^

Jolrael wrote:
Thats what Ursakar Creed said, before my seer counil chopped down his command squad last game^^

Damn those pesky eldar scattering with psychic powers off-board on players again. But I wont be fooled by your trickery witch. It was your council which did resolute blow, not a nighspinner. Besides mighty Creed obviously lacked "Send in the next wave!" so he could "For the honour of the Cadia!" your council into the Slaaneshs palace of infinite eldar entertainment.

But hey, the proxied spinner didn´t do bad that game. I posted the results in this thread. Even a basilisk got torn apart by the webs^^ Anyway you still haven´t said weather you like spinner or prisms more... or in your case, which one you dislike to play against since you´re marines.

AchillesFTW wrote:Still AP- means very little. The Fire Prism sacrifices one point for STR for AP4 which imo is way better. Also the Fire Prism is BS4 whereas the Spinner is BS3. The Nightspinner isn't very versatile and it can ONLY take on gaunts and orks.

Respectfully, you are incorrect. Not on your first comment -- your opinion is always your own. On the other 2 points though, you are off base.

BS Difference
The BS difference between the prism and spinner is minimal -- as both use the scatter dice. Since the spinner is naturally twin-linked, its much more accurate. There is a 55% the spinner will get a 'HIT' value under 2 rolls of the dice. The spinner has 2 chances to roll low enough to stay on target, which gives a better chance of hitting than one dice with a BS of 4. If your target is a land raider, for example, the spinner has a ~85% of getting the center of the template on the raider, where the prism has a much lower chance.

Spinner Uses
The problem with an absolute statement like the one you made is they are easy to refute -- as any debater will tell you. Let me give you some other examples of what a spinner can 'take on'.
* Slowing down thunderwolf calvary
* Immobilizing a stormraven before it deploys its cargo
* Slowing down Shrike's infiltrating terminators
* Slowing down BA assault marines
* Slowing down/killing MM attack bikes
* Slowing down seer squads/ork nob squads
All of those uses can be very critical to stop an enemy from getting where they want to be.
As Jolrael mentioned, its not a tool to use against gunline armies -- but not all mech armies are gunline armies.

Summary
The value of a unit cannot always be defined as 'how much it kills' or 'if it gets it points back'. It should instead be measured on its overall effect to the game, and in this sense one spinner is great for the eldar game.

The Night spinner is probably more reliable than the Fire Prism overall. that's how I feel anyway because my prisms never manage to hit or damage anything. the TL on the nightspinner changes that.

And as labmouse said above, BS is irrelevant when using blast weapons.

Because I am afraid of neither.

It really comes to the point of how much terrain you do use and which terrain it is. We play most often on table with ruins from imperial sector, that means that brutalities like battle canon or earthstaker can be easily avoided by splitting infantry squads in 2 - 3 floors and therefore making even humble combat squads highly resistant to those "instasquadrape" large blasts. That means I have little fear for anti-infantry capabilities of Fire Prism, since I can handle their better equivalents fairly well.

And as far anti-tank goes, those 2 squads of fire dragons is what gives me creeps, not single blast from fire prism/s. On current damage table quantity often beats quality, so I have much more respect from 3 guided str 8 shots from falcon for wrecking my transports (altought that sucks too for the points).

My list contains Librarian riding with assault termies in LR covered by shooty dreads, speeders and predators with some troops hanging around and providing any support which they can.

So to sum things I dont like in eldar army up :

Outlflanking Warwalkers taking out my firesupport.

Runes of warding.

Fire dragons.

Holofields - since I rely more on kraks, lascanons and autocanons for anti-tank and obviously lack in melta department.


But if I have to choose between fire prism and nightspinner, then I say I am more afraid of a nightspinner, because if even one of my marines gets hit - all get the web (which isnt great, but its still much better than hitting 1-2 marines with prism in cover) usually along with rhino and something riding/flying behind it with cover. Because 1/6 chance of immobilising land raider suck along with small chance for sucsessfull rend (and yes I like to ride with rhinos / speeders behind the landraider) and also because my standart deployment consists of speeders gaining cover behind rhinos or dreadnoughts allowing easy multihits with web.

Main problem of a nighspinner is that it usually works something around 50/50 and althought its not that expensive point wise, meaning you can afford it without problems in larger point games, I think I could quote you while trying to say that eldar does not actually need something which works in 50% cases that much...

Jolrael wrote:Main problem of a nighspinner is that it usually works something around 50/50 and althought its not that expensive point wise, meaning you can afford it without problems in larger point games, I think I could quote you while trying to say that eldar does not actually need something which works in 50% cases that much...

Those two statements are why it finds a home in my 1750 and greater point lists. I don't give it a holo-field and keep it out of as much LOS as possible. For just over 100 points its cheap for what it does.

In tourneys like 'ard boys, not bringing one would be foolish IMHO.

labmouse42 wrote:

Jolrael wrote:Main problem of a nighspinner is that it usually works something around 50/50 and althought its not that expensive point wise, meaning you can afford it without problems in larger point games, I think I could quote you while trying to say that eldar does not actually need something which works in 50% cases that much...

Those two statements are why it finds a home in my 1750 and greater point lists. I don't give it a holo-field and keep it out of as much LOS as possible. For just over 100 points its cheap for what it does.

In tourneys like 'ard boys, not bringing one would be foolish IMHO.

Yes I must admit that even if it is only heavy support slot choice without holofield I still prefer to shoot at holo-falcons / serpents carrying dragons / eldrad + something, so its a nice cheap toy to play with.

Id still would not call it foolish to not take one...

I feel like a nightspinner would be a nice addiion to my warhost. So I decided to get one. Or two?

What do you guys think? One or two? Which is better?

I field 2 falcons and 1 spinner. I find that gives me the best bang for my buck.

* Edit, sorry I ment to say prisms. I did not get much sleep last night

labmouse42 wrote:I field 2 falcons and 1 spinner. I find that gives me the best bang for my buck.

Not a huge fan of falcons. They are very very expensive.

Master Melta wrote:The PDG has Large waaaaaay over on the left of the line with blast.

it's funky they way it's constructed but it's there.

Chiggity check it out.

In fact, the term 'Large' is found on the left - its just a formating error.