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Slow and purposeful gives them relentless

BronzeJon wrote:Slow and purposeful gives them relentless

I know, but read the whoel thing. get rid of slow and purposful and add in relentless IE keep the rlentless part of slow and purposful but make emregular speed

I agree that FNP is grossly overused at this point. What about approaching the durability issue from a different angle? What if the enemy had to pass a leadership test to shoot or charge them, to overcome their fear/disbelief of the spectral apparitions? This would disproportionately affect infantry-heavy armies like IG or Tau and hopefully cut down on death due to small arms without making them overpowered.

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Damned Sergeant
WS: 5 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 W: 1 I: 4 A: 1 Ld: 10 Sv: 3++

Damned Legionnaire:
WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 W: 1 I: 4 A: 1 Ld: 10 Sv: 3++

Wargear: Bolt Pistol,CC Weapon, Bolter, Frag and Krak Grenades, Power Armor

Rules: Relentless, Fearless

Aid Unlooked For: The Legion of The Damned always start the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. They may re-roll the Deep Strike Scatter Dice and pick either result.

Unyielding Specters: The Legion has a 3+ Invulnerable Save

In The Darkest Hour: The Legion Of The Damned may be fielded as an Elites Choice in any Imperial Codex. Independent Characters may not join a Legion of The Damned Squad.

Spectral Warriors: The Legionnaires appear suddenly on the battlefield, wreathed in warp flame and flickering in and out of reality. Any unit that wishes to shoot or assault a Legion of the Damned unit must first pass a Leadership test to overcome the fear/confusion/disbelief caused by the ghostly apparitions assailing them. Fearless units and units without a leadership value are unaffected by this.

30 Points Per Model

35 For Sergeant

Squad Consists of: 1 Sergeant, 4-9 Legionnaires

Upgrades are as listed in Codex: Space Marines

You know your stuff, Pimp Hand. I would totally use those.

Hmmm.
I know it's overused, but FNP makes sense to me with LotD.
Either way, slow and purposeful needs to be replaced with relentless. Doing that would show them a lot more action.

Why not give them bolter ammo, but give it the equivalence of Dragonfire rounds (Str. 4, Ap 5, ignores cover). Maybe give them combi-flamers automatically, too (as they're all fiery and such).

So here's what I'd do:
[normal stats]


Legion of the Damned

Aid unlooked for: reserve, deepstrike, reroll scatter.

Unyielding specters: 3++

Flammis Acribus: The Legionnaires are wrath and flame. Their weapons are all combi-flamers and have the following profile (str. 4, Ap5, ignores cover).

Relentless; fearless

165 points for 5 (may have up to ten models, each additional model costs 30 points). The squad may not be upgraded.

That makes them more of a "special hero" unit than an elite unit, due to the lack of upgrade-ability.

Although it is a take to be considered.

I like that idea of that "Spectral Warriors" special rule; it really really makes them stand out as unique choices. Otherwise I think I'd still just use Sternguard.

The fluff in their entry specifically states that their bolters are better than normal, yet nothing is mentioned about that in their FOC entry. I agree that they should be at least AP4. SGT Telion's bolter already demonstrates a S5 AP4 weapon, and I'm not suggesting that the LoTD botlers should be heavy 2! I also think Relentless and FNP are totally appropriate for what these guys represent, remember they are NOT Sternguard OR Vanguard Vets, so making them better at shooty or CC would be wrong IMO...

Aasss to the cost per LoTD...well, I'm less certain about that.

Personally Pimphand, I still don't think that solves the problem. Leadership really isn't an issue with most forces in 40K, meaning that those LotD are still just as vulnerable to Termagaunts/Guardsmen/Small arms as they are atm and as they shouldn't be. I've said it before and I'll say it again; their problem is that for 35pts they're no tougher to small arms than an ordinary MeQ. Whilst it helps slightly, IMHO the Ld thing doesn't solve this.

Despite it's commonness, FNP does. And it suits them.

Personally, I'd keep them as they are and just add FNP and make their ordinary bolters slightly better; ignoring cover, Assault 3 or whatever are all options.

3+ inv with FNP will turn them almost into SS terminators without any drawbacks of terminator armour..

You mean without the close combat potential for only 5pts more? I'd say that's quite fair IMHO; they're slower, weaker and arguably less tough so it'd make sense for only 5pts IMHO. That is only at a glance however, I haven't really thought about it that much.

I think T5, FNP, ccw + bp and S4 AP3 bolters would make them more the undying spectral soldiers that they are.

But it would also make them crazy awesome. They're the only non-bike unit in Nilla Dex that are T5. And there bolt guns are str 4, ap 3. They can even deal with MEQ.

If they were that awesome, for that cheap, I'd grab them all the time.

You can get thousand sons with a 4+ invul and S4 AP3 bolters for 26p per model in CSM. Combine that with nurgle T5 and fnp that they also get in their dex, and ??? not to mention most cult troops have bolter and bp + ccw, I don't see the issue with them being 35p each. They're a durable ranged unit that is a decent tarpit for MEQ and up melee crap.

But the invuln + fnp makes them, essentially, 2+/3++. Couple that with T5, which is higher than all other SM units. A bolter that has AP3 is incredible. for an SM, it really is. It makes them equivalent/better than termies for 5 points less.

I mean, agaisnt MEQ, having a 33% chance to kill with your ranged weapon, and being 2+/3++ is kinda crazy good. like uber sternguard that are suddenly tougher than all other marine units. You'd have to up their cost.

Hashbeth wrote:But the invuln + fnp makes them, essentially, 2+/3++. Couple that with T5, which is higher than all other SM units. A bolter that has AP3 is incredible. for an SM, it really is. It makes them equivalent/better than termies for 5 points less.

I mean, agaisnt MEQ, having a 33% chance to kill with your ranged weapon, and being 2+/3++ is kinda crazy good. like uber sternguard that are suddenly tougher than all other marine units. You'd have to up their cost.

40 Points? Make them a Terminator Alternative...

3+ with FNP against non ID or power weapon wounds doesn't sound too op to me, termies get 2+ armor and it's better for a reason.

The invuln is nothing special combined with FNP. Essentially, against wounds that you can take FNP saves against, it's power armor with 4+ FNP, thats it. It's invuln to ID and power weapon wounds yes, but keep in mind I'm not saying you should be able to FNP las/plas/melta wounds. That's just silly.

The issue is the bolter, too. 4, ap3 is what is also ridiculous with marines.
Sternguard may get it, but they do with a 9" rapid fire range and the 'gets hot' probability.

Hashbeth wrote:The issue is the bolter, too. 4, ap3 is what is also ridiculous with marines.
Sternguard may get it, but they do with a 9" rapid fire range and the 'gets hot' probability.

Of course these guys wouldn't have the options for Dragonfire, Hellfire, and Kraken bolts.

Really, I see LotD as a mixed choice; good at both shooting and CC, but worse at CC than Vanguards, and worse at shooting than Sternguards

The issue is the bolter, too. 4, ap3 is what is also ridiculous with marines.

Having an AP3 bolter isn't as great as it sounds; there's a reason why very few people use Thousand Sons, and that's because there's a large abundance of cover that acts to pretty much negate the increased AP. Simply put, Berserkers and Plague Marines are preferred because cover doesn't reduce their strengths, and that is combat and resillience respectively, even though TSons have a 4+ invul.

I say keep the AP3 bolter.

They need it to fit their fluff anyhow.

But again the issue is points balance and roll. They need to fill in a roll that Sternguard and Vanguard don't fill.

And first off, the T5, Str 4, Ap3, 3++ invuln, and fnp is way too much benefit for the point cost.

. T5 is only available to marines via bikes, but even without, most marine players would pay 5-10 points for T5 (let's assume 5). That's 22 points. Str 4, AP3 ammo could easily be bought for 3-5 more points. Let's say 3. An invuln save normally costs 15 points (Storm shield), let's say 10 for this instance. FNP is another 5 points (conservatively...I think many would agree with me.)

Let's add that up. 17 + 5 + 3 + 10 + 5 = 40 points per model, at an extremely conservative price comparison. Add in other bonuses and slow and purposeful (as both bonus and penalty) and you'd have something like 37 points each (excluding the ccw and what not).

That's 6 points above cost, which is an incredible value for the unit.

Yes, those are abstractions. But really, it's too many benefits for the units.
I recommend something like what calgar's pimphand said:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:I agree that FNP is grossly overused at this point. What about approaching the durability issue from a different angle? What if the enemy had to pass a leadership test to shoot or charge them, to overcome their fear/disbelief of the spectral apparitions? This would disproportionately affect infantry-heavy armies like IG or Tau and hopefully cut down on death due to small arms without making them overpowered.

-------------------

Damned Sergeant
WS: 5 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 W: 1 I: 4 A: 1 Ld: 10 Sv: 3++

Damned Legionnaire:
WS: 4 BS: 4 S: 4 T: 4 W: 1 I: 4 A: 1 Ld: 10 Sv: 3++

Wargear: Bolt Pistol,CC Weapon, Bolter, Frag and Krak Grenades, Power Armor

Rules: Relentless, Fearless

Aid Unlooked For: The Legion of The Damned always start the game in reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike. They may re-roll the Deep Strike Scatter Dice and pick either result.

Unyielding Specters: The Legion has a 3+ Invulnerable Save

In The Darkest Hour: The Legion Of The Damned may be fielded as an Elites Choice in any Imperial Codex. Independent Characters may not join a Legion of The Damned Squad.

Spectral Warriors: The Legionnaires appear suddenly on the battlefield, wreathed in warp flame and flickering in and out of reality. Any unit that wishes to shoot or assault a Legion of the Damned unit must first pass a Leadership test to overcome the fear/confusion/disbelief caused by the ghostly apparitions assailing them. Fearless units and units without a leadership value are unaffected by this.

30 Points Per Model

35 For Sergeant

Squad Consists of: 1 Sergeant, 4-9 Legionnaires

Upgrades are as listed in Codex: Space Marines

This gives them an interesting and different place in the codex. Just making them "better" and them throwing them abilities is not the right answer, imo.

Hashbeth wrote:

This gives them an interesting and different place in the codex. Just making them "better" and them throwing them abilities is not the right answer, imo.

Otherwise we could just make an overpowered Codex: LotD, just like Blood Angels Because Marines should be more versatile, not just default "better".

G00fy has hit the nail on the head. Slow and purposeful sucks. I was thinking of fielding a counts as unit with my marines and am a bit out off because of this. Get rid of sliw and purposeful and add in relentless and fnp and legion units would be far more competitive.

Looks good, but the 2 wound thing is kinda iffy. Cut that out, and its good.

It is actually, but basically the feel is that they need to last longer. Either the two wounds OR the fnp/relentless, but both will indeed make them OP.

I'd give them two wounds and Relentless, just because I don't like FNP being everywhere.

I'm going back into the shadowy depths of my mind here, but back in 3rd ed I have a vague memory of them being just fearless Marines with 2w but I could be imagining this, especially as this is the best option in my eyes.

Hashbeth wrote:The issue is the bolter, too. 4, ap3 is what is also ridiculous with marines.
Sternguard may get it, but they do with a 9" rapid fire range and the 'gets hot' probability.

No, they have a 12" Rapid Fire range. Just as anything with Rapid Fire...

That said, T5, FnP and 3++ is way too much really. With T5 you get FnP vs Battle cannons, Missiles ect.

Currently SM have a unit close to that. A Command Squad on bikes will have T4(5) and FnP. With a Stormshield they cost 53/pts each (assuming the Apot costs the same). They lose FnP if the Apot dies and does not get FnP vs missiles and Battle cannons ect...granted, they move 12" and fall back 3d6

The test vs ld to attack them is a neat and much "better" ability to give them. Maybe ad a -1 mod to make it a little better but thats not really necessary