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I've never seen bottom halves to Bert and Ernie, and they're clearly not human. Without any evidence of genitalia, how can we be sure? Do we fully understand what kind of creatures they are, and what kind of gender dynamic they exhibit?
Basically what I'm saying is, unless they get their gentleman bits out on TV, the whole thing is a massive cop-out.
Furthermore, based on earlier comments in this thread, I am wondering if the Count is based on legends that I believe are Eastern European in origin that portray vampires as obsessive compulsive, and forced to count anything the see. It just makes so much sense now!
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htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
I think they would be better off introducing new characters who are gay. Two men living together are not automatically gay, lots of men do that. Women share flats, they aren't all lesbians. In trying to show openness and equality, I think they risk stereotyping people's relationships. It is after all possible to have a platonic relationship and have very close relations with a person of either sex without being a in a sexual relationship.
Really I think the humour, for the adults at least, is the ambiguity. I prefer the knowing nature of it rather than having it spelt out either way.
Not serious. Lampooning for the effect of ridicule.
I feel that arbitrarily making them gay demeans the idea of close male friendship, which is demeaned enough these days. I'd love to see them add a gay couple to the show, but this seems like a ridiculous way to do it.
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htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
htj wrote:I'd love to see them add a gay couple to the show, but this seems like a ridiculous way to do it.
Really? Why? What would adding a gay couple to the show accomplish?
Sesame Street doesn't deal with human sexuality at all, the only male-female relationship I recall is that between Miss Piggy and Kermit, and that's really not played up very much.
Now, I'd see nothing wrong with a short showing a kid with "my two mommies" or "my two daddies," since I'm sure they occasionally show shorts with "mommy and daddy." But I don't see why there should be a gay couple on Sesame Street, it's simply a little too complex of an issue for a children's show.
edit: fixed quote
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/11 12:50:59
The show would be better served to have two human characters appear that could address the issue of gay/lesbian couplings.
The spin-off show of Arthur- Postcards from Buster depicted in one episode the concept of same sex couples having children.
It caused a conservative uproar of course, but it was brave enough to show the concept on TV and not have to deal with any of the sticky ways to define a same sex marriage. It was simply the person had two mommies.
In any event the plot was to find out how maple sugar was made.
htj wrote:I'd love to see them add a gay couple to the show, but this seems like a ridiculous way to do it.
Really? Why? What would adding a gay couple to the show accomplish?
Sesame Street doesn't deal with human sexuality at all, the only male-female relationship I recall is that between Miss Piggy and Kermit, and that's really not played up very much.
Now, I'd see nothing wrong with a short showing a kid with "my two mommies" or "my two daddies," since I'm sure they occasionally show shorts with "mommy and daddy." But I don't see why there should be a gay couple on Sesame Street, it's simply a little too complex of an issue for a children's show.
edit: fixed quote
Honestly? Because it would amuse me, and the anger it was cause in some hateful people would satisfy me greatly. But you're right, they'd be better off portraying homosexual relationships with humans rather than with puppets. It's not like the puppets have been spokesmen for social issues before, unless you count maths and letters.
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htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
^^ This is more like it. I'm pretty sure that kids watching Sesame Street aren't concerned with sexuality at all. If the show was to introduce a homosexual couple, I think it would be best to have them be "adults" or "Mommies and Daddies". I'll bet most kids would consider Bert and Ernie to be peers. Bringing Bert and Ernie together in ways they've never been together will most likely be confusing and will only hurt the show.
I'm all for awareness, but how many times has Elmo's or Big Bird's sexuality come up? Sexuality more or less doesn't exist in the Sesame Street universe.
First thought: Who the feth names their kid "Lair". Are they SURPRISED when they turn out becoming internet-famous for demanding stupid gak of PBS?
Second thought: If 40k nerds don't deal well with cannon breaking, just think about how people who grew up with Sesame Street will feel.
Third thought:
Avatar 720 wrote:This would go against a fair amount of what LGBT groups stand for, seeing as they're constantly arguing (quite rightly) that you don't just become gay all of a sudden, and it's not something you have much control over; pushing for two homosexual characters who have previously had no such ties, is just blatant contradiction for no purpose other than to introduce kids to homosexuality.
If anything, kids will be more confused than if they hadn't seen it, as it'll have just taken a step towards saying that you can just become homosexual at any time.
Pretty much this.
I'm all for homosexual characters, but only when it's been thought through; this idea isn't even half-baked, it's just been shoved in the oven and expected to cook there and then.
This is where I argue though. This idea is more so just sitting there, uncooked out in the sun, left to rot.
This makes as much sense as if you spontaneously revised the Socrates's Alleory of the Cave to state that two of the prisoners chained to the wall were gay. Great. Guess what? It doesn't make sense, because the story's nothing to do with sexuality. You just shoehorned unrelated crap into it for the sake of pushing agenda.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/11 17:23:30
chaos0xomega wrote:If the people behind this campaign actually bothered to go back and read some Sesame Street history, I think they would find that Bert and Ernie (or at least Bert) is in fact, straight. He has had romantic interaction w/ female characters in the past, I think he even had a girlfriend at one point.
Are you making an argument about the continuity of Sesame Street?
Yes, yes I am.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
How did someone that is not related to the show making a suggestion of something he would like to see ruin someones childhood? I could undestand if a show actually made some radical changes, but this was a 3rd party talking about something they wanted that was never, and most likely never will be, implemented.
I'm a tranny, and what is this?
If you don't know what a tranny is, how can you claim to be one? Google it.
Amidst the mists and coldest frosts he thrusts his fists against the posts and still insists he sees the ghosts.
biccat wrote:
Sesame Street doesn't deal with human sexuality at all, the only male-female relationship I recall is that between Miss Piggy and Kermit, and that's really not played up very much.
Kermit the Frog and Miss Piggy live in the Muppets universe, which is a tad bit different than Sesame Street.
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sebster wrote:The Count's obsession actually comes from early vampire myths, which said if a vampire was chasing you the best thing you could do was throw a handful of beans to the ground - the vampire would have to count them before continuing to chase you. Which is kind of stupid, but lots of early myths were. In fact, it's kind of weird how many monster in old myths are basically showing elements of OCD.
I thought it was with grains of salt or something.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2011/08/11 19:44:15
Let's be honest here the idea is a not a good one and is only going to cause issues. I am all for gay marriage, but this is ridiculous. This campaign is over doing it. Gay marriage is legalized in NY. Be happy, but don't try to force the idea of gay marriage on others via a children's program.
If someone made a campaign for Bert or Ernie to meet a female muppet/puppet and get married people would be moaning about how Sesame Street only caters to a certain lifestyle or some other nonsense. Bert and Ernie are fine the way they are.
daedalus wrote:Second thought: If 40k nerds don't deal well with cannon breaking
Actually, 40K nerds LOVE Cannon breaking, as long as it belongs to the enemy army.
CANON breaking is a different story.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Howard A Treesong wrote:Women share flats, they aren't all lesbians.
I don't ruin your porn, so why are you trying to ruin mine?
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chaos0xomega wrote:Yes, yes I am.
Awesome.
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halonachos wrote:I thought it was with grains of salt or something.
Could be, when I wrote my post I actually changed between beans and seeds because I thought it was one of those two. Whatever it is, and it might have even changed from telling to telling, the whole thing is really very odd.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2011/08/11 23:58:18
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
Nothing to do with Bert and Ernie coming out of the closet...
But concerning the Vampire/bean counting thing...
According to vampire mythos, vampires will stop to count grains of salt, rice, poppy seeds and thorns (?) if they are spread about outside your home...this will "trap" them ( unless they count quickly) until the sun rises and destroys them...
..This little tid bit of vampire mythos has been brought to you by the letters V and M...and by the number 3.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
if they are not related, I would still say keep it in your mind MR, just because people live together and bicker dose not mean they are gay, are college students gay?
and if they were 'turned out that way' and they were not major figures to my inner child and my niece, I frankly would not care, but this is a kids program, thirdly, how would they deal with stuff like that on the show? I mean, them 'sleeping in the same bed' would be...implying something.
Though this is coming from a guy who's entire young life had sesame street in there, this would be screwing with my mind like hell, I mean, what? that's like saying spongebob is gay. (he is not and it has been repeatedly denied by the makers)
the main thing that pisses me off, is that these people grope desperately for 'examples in TV' that they make up and pretend are real. These characters are about as gay as Han Solo, which is to say: not very damn much at all.
"The young and foolish seek glory and recognition for their deeds, brother, the experienced and old know that recognition and medals are precisely the same worth as ork gak."
-Avarian Pentus--Deathwatch Apothecary
ineptus astartes wrote:aren't they brothers? so incest is OK now? WTF?
if they are not related, I would still say keep it in your mind MR, just because people live together and bicker dose not mean they are gay, are college students gay?
and if they were 'turned out that way' and they were not major figures to my inner child and my niece, I frankly would not care, but this is a kids program, thirdly, how would they deal with stuff like that on the show? I mean, them 'sleeping in the same bed' would be...implying something.
Though this is coming from a guy who's entire young life had sesame street in there, this would be screwing with my mind like hell, I mean, what? that's like saying spongebob is gay. (he is not and it has been repeatedly denied by the makers)
the main thing that pisses me off, is that these people grope desperately for 'examples in TV' that they make up and pretend are real. These characters are about as gay as Han Solo, which is to say: not very damn much at all.
This is a terrible post. Aside from the general state of the writing, use of the term 'these people' and 'turned out that way' and the comment on not caring if it didn't affect your niece smack of homophobia to me. I'm mystified at the comment about Han Solo, I supposed he's something of a ladies man in the expanded universe? Or is it an implication that he's 'too manly' to be gay? To be perfectly honest, I find your post offends me somewhat. And before you ask, no, I am not one of 'those people.' Please, correct me if I have misinterpreted you.
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htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
so? I had said I would not have cared one way or the other if it did not confuse children, I am perfectly fine with someone asking that they include a gay character, but not with someone demanding that they change characters that were a major facet in my childhood to gay muppets on a whim, the thing is, what pisses me off is that people automatically assume that two males living in the same house, sharing the same bed are gay, maybe it's just the fact that I live in a country where sharing your bed is considered the norm if you don't have another bed, but I find this offensive to people who come from cultures like that and would be branded as gay.
again, maybe it is just that I feel a bit annoyed with someone demanding that characters be turned homosexual/bisexual, or maybe I am just stupid huh? that's what you seem to be implying, I was pointing out that I feel that if a gay character is put in the show, that they should not make it bert and ernie, it would just be to weird.
and about 'quality of writing' next time, pick on someone without on/off dyslexia.
"The young and foolish seek glory and recognition for their deeds, brother, the experienced and old know that recognition and medals are precisely the same worth as ork gak."
-Avarian Pentus--Deathwatch Apothecary
ineptus astartes wrote:so? I had said I would not have cared one way or the other if it did not confuse children, I am perfectly fine with someone asking that they include a gay character, but not with someone demanding that they change characters that were a major facet in my childhood to gay muppets on a whim, the thing is, what pisses me off is that people automatically assume that two males living in the same house, sharing the same bed are gay, maybe it's just the fact that I live in a country where sharing your bed is considered the norm if you don't have another bed, but I find this offensive to people who come from cultures like that and would be branded as gay.
again, maybe it is just that I feel a bit annoyed with someone demanding that characters be turned homosexual/bisexual, or maybe I am just stupid huh? that's what you seem to be implying, I was pointing out that I feel that if a gay character is put in the show, that they should not make it bert and ernie, it would just be to weird.
and about 'quality of writing' next time, pick on someone without on/off dyslexia.
I never said that you were stupid, I said that your post came across homophobic. I take no issue with your disapproval of making Bert and Ernie gay, in fact I agree with you. I don't think they should do that. What angered me was the way you worded your complaint, which felt like textbook homophobia. This is something that I detest, and cannot let lie.
I am not 'picking on you' and do not think me unsympathetic to those with dyslexia. It runs in my family, and I showed signs of dyslexia when I was very young. It does not affect your ability to use proper punctuation and to follow basic grammatical structure. I have known some people with extreme dyslexia in my time, and whilst it showed in their handwriting and they would be more prone to spelling mistakes, their typed grammar and sentence structure was immaculate. Please do not use your disability as an 'I win' button in a discussion. It does not make your position any stronger.
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htj wrote:You can always trust a man who quotes himself in his signature.
