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biccat wrote:Double the averange Chinese wage. Significantly less than the US minimum wage.

Why should that be a problem? Money is only worth what you can buy with it and it goes a hell of lot further in China.

Folks in Australia get paid approx double what you'd get in the UK for the same job? Does that mean they're better off? - Not really, because stuff is more expensive there.


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Grot 6 wrote:I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality".

Which painting services out of China do you have personal experience of?

I bought a painted army from a company that operates in Bangladesh. The quality was very good.

You can see some of the figures in my gallery -- it's the 6mm Napoleonic Russians.

I like the idea of supporting developing countries especially a Commonwealth nation.

Orangecoke wrote:
- sooo many photos across multiple auctions are identical ("sample photos"). I'm more a fan of listing something with an actual photo of what you are receiving

Also my main concern with that particular seller (I don't generally even look for painted stuff on e-bay to have noticed any others). When I see a picture of a painted model and it says that there's 10 available, I'm going to question the potential quality of what I'm going to get, no matter where the seller is from.

I don't get the negativity about chinese produce, if the quality control was so bad then why would nearly all major leading brands manufacture their products in China?

Painting services in the big cities are probably comparable to services found in other "rich" countries since in the cities like Shanghai, Hong Kong etc. are populated by a lot of wealthy people so things like model shops are quite popular (although probably the most popular modelling hobby is Gundam kits).

There are some painting services in HK which are incredibly good (they paint some incredibly realistic models in both scale model kits and in things like 40k etc.) but the prices they charge are ridiculous, about 600-900 HKD for a single 1:48 aircraft model.

Snarky wrote:I don't get the negativity about chinese produce, if the quality control was so bad then why would nearly all major leading brands manufacture their products in China?

Painting services in the big cities are probably comparable to services found in other "rich" countries since in the cities like Shanghai, Hong Kong etc. are populated by a lot of wealthy people so things like model shops are quite popular (although probably the most popular modelling hobby is Gundam kits).

There are some painting services in HK which are incredibly good (they paint some incredibly realistic models in both scale model kits and in things like 40k etc.) but the prices they charge are ridiculous, about 600-900 HKD for a single 1:48 aircraft model.

Because labor is cheaper, chinese steel is cheaper, they have a greater abundance of most resources that people require for many things. It's simple business economics. You buy from the cheapest and sell for the highest in the proper markets. Quality, in many instances, has little to do with it or can be checked at other places. Keep in mind, I'm bundling in many many different things that countries (especially the US) go to china for, not just miniature painting.

On to the topic at hand though, no one has actually mentioned any websites or painting services they've utilized. Only ebay links (which I can't view at work, personally) and that they've used them, but no names. So, can we get some actual recommendations up in here? I'm lazy and have some money to spend on getting my stuff painted.

Those ebay links say that the models aren't stock. Leads me to believe it's a group of miniature painters that want to sell their services. Rather than make a website, they use ebay listings.

I don't see how them being Chinese changes anything, they just want to reach customers in more affluent markets where wargaming is bigger.

The idea that out there, somewhere, is a mini painting sweatshop is python-esque.

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I don't care.

I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality". Keep your money local and support your own area painters.

If not, you have plenty of other choices for painting services.

Oh, I disagree; just check out this listing> http://cgi.ebay.com/25mm-DPS-painted-Tomb-Kings-Khemrian-Warsphinx-TK003-/160623224831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2565e3e7ff

That Warsphinx would seriously get a 8 out of 10, on the Dakka gallery. And it's cheap to. That's what get's me, I guess; I tend expect stuff that is cheap to be low quality.

_Tim?

How do you figure that's cheap? It's a painted $50 model selling for $160. To me that's nowhere near what I'd call cheap.

MagickalMemories wrote:One of the guys in my group ONLY buys minis from the Chinese sellers anymore. They're the only ones he's encountered that can handle the level of business he brings (typically a full army at a time) at a reasonable time frame and keep their promises.
All of the commission painters he's tried elsewhere -for large lots- have failed to deliver in a timely manner.

They do great commissions, too. Numerous times, he's bought a bunch of ForgeWorld, sent it off, and it's been returned to him as promised.

I recall in the past that at least ONE of those guys (China, Sri Lanka or something) was profiled and interviewed on a podcast. Essentially, he's paying his painters more than (I want to say double?) the current average salary there.

Also, if you keep using those guys, you know everything you get will be of the same quality and match everything else in the army.

I used to really razz him for it, but I can't really blame him anymore.
Personally, I will continue to use BTown advertisers, but I won't knock others for doing it anymore.

Eric

Enlightening.

Any chance you could ID this service?

DragonPainting has let down quite a few guys that I know... sometimes even sending pics of the miniatures which differ from the actual end result received.

AvatarForm wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:One of the guys in my group ONLY buys minis from the Chinese sellers anymore. They're the only ones he's encountered that can handle the level of business he brings (typically a full army at a time) at a reasonable time frame and keep their promises.

<SNIP>

Eric

Enlightening.

Any chance you could ID this service?

DragonPainting has let down quite a few guys that I know... sometimes even sending pics of the miniatures which differ from the actual end result received.

LOL
Another buddy used DragonPainting. He ordered a Daemon army. Got a crappy result. Looked NOTHING like the pics.
He emailed them and said he wanted a refund. They basically begged him not to report them & said they'd repaint... well, almost everything... and he could keep the first lot.
What arrived was as bad as the first group.
The models wouldn't have been too bad at a slightly lower price point, *if* they had been advertised honestly.

The service they use successfully is Wardragon (WDS)
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p5197.m570.l1313&_nkw=40k+painted+wds&_sacat=See-All-Categories

"All of our models had painted , not example . Really what you see what you get !"
(Direct quote from their auctions)

It's GOT to be true, too. Because what is in the auction looks exactly like what arrives.

Eric

damienhell wrote:Well, its no different from the mexican working in the Usa.
A friend of mine bought alot of stuff from that hongkong seller. Compared from the painting service from where I am from, the works is really good and CHEAP (which probably why people buy from them). An honest work is still an honest work, beats from them becoming a robber.

I'd hardly call it honest as it completely undercuts the north american painters to the point where trying to compete with them is insanity. Currently charging less then $20 a model on something that can win best painted at most tournaments is masochism.

Ravenous D wrote:

damienhell wrote:Well, its no different from the mexican working in the Usa.
A friend of mine bought alot of stuff from that hongkong seller. Compared from the painting service from where I am from, the works is really good and CHEAP (which probably why people buy from them). An honest work is still an honest work, beats from them becoming a robber.

I'd hardly call it honest as it completely undercuts the north american painters to the point where trying to compete with them is insanity. Currently charging less then $20 a model on something that can win best painted at most tournaments is masochism.

As an Admin on Bartertown, I make it a point to ONLY do business with Bartertown supporting advertisers whenever possible. I thank them for supporting the site by supporting them with my purchases. Often, that means I pay a little more.
Currently, the only advertising painters we have are in the US. I've used one with positive results and, the next time I need a painter, I'm going to give the other a try.

If they were outside of the US, I'd treat them the same.

I have not always had luck in supporting American painters (1 in Canada and 2 in the US went poorly). Only Blue Table Painting and Garden Ninja (Odin's Grandson on Dakka) have done well for me.
So, barring them and presuming I was not only supporting BTown advertisers, why should I waste money on subpar products, or RISK money and models on untried painters, when I know I can get a nice product at a nice price WHEN it is promised?

I'm all for "Buy American" and supporting my fellow Americans, but there's a point when you've got to draw a line.

Eric

I agree, there is alot of painters out there that probably shouldnt be in the commission field.

I got to the point where I only take local jobs because its simply not worth my time to paint models for people unless they put some serious money in my wallet. For example, I airbrush helmets for $500 to $1500 and it takes me about a week to finish, so why would I take a commission from something that will take me a month for $500 or less?

Painting minis is a hard time consuming job that requires skill, but for some reason people seem to think that should be worth $5 a model? Forget that.

My point is that if the chinese painters takes off it will cheapen the field even more, undercutting is already rampant as is, the last thing we need is a guy that will paint well for peanuts.

Scott-S6 wrote:

biccat wrote:Double the averange Chinese wage. Significantly less than the US minimum wage.

Why should that be a problem? Money is only worth what you can buy with it and it goes a hell of lot further in China.

Folks in Australia get paid approx double what you'd get in the UK for the same job? Does that mean they're better off? - Not really, because stuff is more expensive there.


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Grot 6 wrote:I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality".

Which painting services out of China do you have personal experience of?

You mistake me for someone else. I am the one who says he wouldn't use these services from china. I paint my own, or go to one of the three or four golden demon winners I know that will paint it for whatever they want to charge, and can go see in person if I so chose.

Hey, for you- and the rest of you that want to go space case on me-

I didn't have anything to do with the OP's and subsiquent rants. All I wrote was that I don't support this sort of service from there. A internet full of subpar services, shoddy materials, and the already full of news economy as to the question of these so called "Quality" goods is all there to be read.

There are no other examples, no references, yet I'm supposed to say " Oh heck yeah! those chinese goods are the best! whoo hoo!"?

I didn't give or will give any comments to the contrary, and I didn't even deserve the negativity offered by johnny on the spot telling me his life story wrapped in a rant.

Then to get the oncoming negativity masqurading as serious discussion?

I'll turn it around on you=
Why would I use a site, when it to me is paramount to "Goldfarming?"

WHY should I support a site, when you can't even point into a serious website, or "painting service" that has a legitimate website? All I saw was a tomb king sphinx, which I DON'T PLAY TOMB KINGS!" You have one of these? Painted by them? seriously?

Your basicly saying to me- Send 120+ bucks overseas to someone for something, even though you have yet to provide hands on examples for serious discussion to the product in question?

That you draw me into your BS was one thing, then to get involved with some sort of crazy was quite something else.

As to the site in question?

Your seriously telling me that that stuff looks like anything special? No one here has even said anything GOOD about them, yet? And I'm the bad guy? Thanks.

Even with the other pictures, you don't see the real work there- those are generic pictures that could have been downloaded, or even taken from some other source.
Thats Feebay, by the way. Theres more then enough examples of feebays steller performance, and overcharge for subquality.

If I'm going to get jacked off of E bey like I have been in the past for it?- HEY then I'll go with the mindless zombie hordes then...

Go buy that stuff.... it's the cat's meow!!! whoo hoo!!!

Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:

Grot 6 wrote:I don't care.

I wouldn't buy them from china either, !@#$ "quality". Keep your money local and support your own area painters.

If not, you have plenty of other choices for painting services.

Oh, I disagree; just check out this listing> http://cgi.ebay.com/25mm-DPS-painted-Tomb-Kings-Khemrian-Warsphinx-TK003-/160623224831?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2565e3e7ff

That Warsphinx would seriously get a 8 out of 10, on the Dakka gallery. And it's cheap to. That's what get's me, I guess; I tend expect stuff that is cheap to be low quality.

_Tim?

The Game store I go to has their business card, as one of their reps or whatever frequents in, adds stuff to display cases for sale and what not. He also gives some nice tips on painting if you chance to ask him.

Grot 6 wrote: A internet full of subpar services, shoddy materials, and the already full of news economy as to the question of these so called "Quality" goods is all there to be read.

plenty of that in NA too. i've spent a fair amount of time in china, and the painted models i've seen there are on the level that you'd see in a display case at your FLGS. your assumption that the work is going to be poor because it is chinese is baseless and fallacious.

Grot 6 wrote:There are no other examples, no references, yet I'm supposed to say " Oh heck yeah! those chinese goods are the best! whoo hoo!"?

knock that straw man down! nobody is telling you what to say, dude. the argument is that if one is to use a painting service, and if the best painting for the dollar is a chinese painting service, then there's no reason not to use it.

Grot 6 wrote:I'll turn it around on you=
Why would I use a site, when it to me is paramount to "Goldfarming?"

i can only assume that you don't know what the difference between providing a service for compensation and goldfarming is. you mean people in china are trying to make a living? shame on them.

Re Ebay and buying from China, though not models in this case:
Last year I bought my son a cello, ebay, local collect, cheap but in good condition. But no case nor bow.

Back to ebay, and the price of cello cases made me think about a second mortgage, until I found a Chinese manufacturer offering brand new cases, made to order, at an amazingly good price compared to UK sellers.

Case duly ordered, paid for etc. Their customer service was excellent: emails saying order received/ payment accepted/ item completed/ item shipped/ satisfaction feedback request. It turned up on time, at the price quoted, in perfect condition, and fitted the cello like a glove.

The bow, I ordered in a similar fashion from Mongolia, of all places, with exactly the same result: top quality product, right price, great service.

Bear in mind that these examples are one-off buys, the sellers are unlikely to get repeat business, yet they still provide great service.

I'd imagine, then, that things which could expect regular repeat business would try that bit harder.

So, Grot 6, do you have me blocked?

Because, numerous times in this thread, I've given my personal experiences with them. Granted, I have not bought from them myself, but every member of my group (including me) has at least one entire army painted by them (I received mine [almost a whole DEldar army] as a gift).
What you see in the auction is what you get - either it's the exact item, or you get one of identical quality (I don't know for sure which). The shipping time isn't too horrible for an items coming from China.

If you want, I can provide images of models -models in my collection- that were painted by WarDragon.
To be fair, they charge more than *I* am willing to pay. That's a matter of preference, though. Because, while it's more than I want to pay for a model, they're damned nice quality models.

Eric

Hemmingway is being really abrasive, so I'm just done discussing this.

Buy what you want from who you want. I never told you not to, but the old Grotster won't be sending anything to any unknown off of E bey or anywhere else.


have fun with that random act of crazy.

MagickalMemories wrote:So, Grot 6, do you have me blocked?

Because, numerous times in this thread, I've given my personal experiences with them. Granted, I have not bought from them myself, but every member of my group (including me) has at least one entire army painted by them (I received mine [almost a whole DEldar army] as a gift).
What you see in the auction is what you get - either it's the exact item, or you get one of identical quality (I don't know for sure which). The shipping time isn't too horrible for an items coming from China.

If you want, I can provide images of models -models in my collection- that were painted by WarDragon.
To be fair, they charge more than *I* am willing to pay. That's a matter of preference, though. Because, while it's more than I want to pay for a model, they're damned nice quality models.

Eric

I don't have you blocked, it is just that I really just don't care. Great you had a bang up experience from them. I hope you continue to do so, and I really have nothing to discuss if you have such a great deal with them. I hope it continues for you, gratz.


Me though? I just don't feel that going through feebay for something like army painting that would be worth my hit or miss experience with feebay on a good day.
I don't support chinese painters, I don't care if they are trying to make a living, have happy thoughts or any of the other 1001 BS random acts of crazy that I am being subjected to just because I put it to opinion that I do not want to do business with them.

Why is it so important, anyway? What, because I say support your local painters, that is bad? HOW?

I don't care to buy from them. I just don't see them as all that great a deal, not to mention NOT worth the money to even waste on hit or miss.


Someone else vouch for them? One of my pals tries them and they start showing anyplace other then feebay? Yeah, sure. maybe?
Why would you just out of the blue think I just trust anyone out there on E bay for anything? Where does that process come from?

What, they're chinese, so they have to be good? How do you figure?

No-one is making you out to be the bad guy. The guy you just quoted made valid points, then you attacked him.

You don't want to buy Chinese stuff then that's fine, but by not appreciating the merits of a cheaper service and claiming that the quality is utter @#*! while pictures show that the painting is anything but, you are making yourself look like the bad guy.

Grot 6 wrote:Whatever. Your just posting to get a rise out of me, so run on along. You have nothing to add but to attack me because I have a difference of opinion, so go run on along back to chhina and live the life of a ricefarmer.

How have I attacked you? What I've done is point out inconsistencies in your argument, not attacked you personally. You can have whatever opinion you want. Your opinion can also be wrong and based off pigheaded ignorance.

Grot 6 wrote:I posted that I wouldn't buy from china. Your a canadian, you probibly live there, so what.

what does that even mean? are you suggesting that canada and china are the same place? how does that follow or even begin to make sense? have you been to either place? they're about 8k km apart. are you fifteen? honestly, i don't see a grown person making statements like that seriously.

Grot 6 wrote: It isn't a friggin strawman when I am getting temperary bans because I don't run with the lemmings, and uncle woo's sob story is supposed to be a reply because I have a difference of opinion.

the strawman is that you think people are telling you what to say. in fact, what is happening is you are making patronizing and ignorant comments about peoples and nations you clearly know nothing about ('uncle woo's sobstory'? on what planet is a comment like that appropriate?) and being busted on the embarrassingly obvious logical inconsistencies that look to me like poorly-veiled bigotry. not surprised to hear about you being banned before. let me guess: for posting racist and demeaning remarks?

Grot 6 wrote:You know what they say about ASS U ME ing?

that when people give you overwhelming evidence to support a position, ie: your comments revealing you don't know what goldfarming is as opposed to providing a service in a service economy, that they are correct to do so? it's really more of a deduction than an assumption.

Grot 6 wrote:Why are you making me out to be the bad guy here

don't need any help from me, partner. you're laying your own brickwork.

Lukus83 wrote:No-one is making you out to be the bad guy. The guy you just quoted made valid points, then you attacked him.

You don't want to buy Chinese stuff then that's fine, but by not appreciating the merits of a cheaper service and claiming that the quality is utter @#*! while pictures show that the painting is anything but, you are making yourself look like the bad guy.

Says the guy from CHINA. LOL


There is nothing to appreciate when they are unknown, and the so called "Quality" is lacking there when they are charging 4 X as much for the friggin basic model.

How do you figure it worth 120 bucks? Is that real gold inlaid in there?


As for the issues of "Cheaper, and me "appreciating"? Those pictures don't say anything other then they are on feebay, which is not worth even discussing?

You really want to go on ahead and tell me more about "Pro painted?" On E bey? are you joking?

It doesn't work that way. I'd tell you to get off the high horse as well, but I'm already seeing the favoritism running rampent around here to even bother after this.

I'm done with this subject.

Buy what you want, from who you want. I'm done even discussing this, seeing it is such a sore spot to comment on an unknown. One guy vouches for them, so I guess thats enough to blow a couple of thousand on. Have fun with that, by the way.

They're from china, so they must be spot on!! whoo-hoo!!!


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Once again, Hemmingway wants to take it to the next level, and wants to spend his time cutting and pasting for no other reason then to bait me.


And all of this because I don't want to use an unknown painting service, from china? Off of E Bey? and they are... Pro Painted? Worth 4X the amount of the model themselves?

Whatever dude. Keep on throwing those insults, they are so very clever.

Next time why don't you repost the whole thought, instead of nit-picking my reply to your rantings to make yourself look like you have something to say.

Grot 6 wrote:Once again, Hemmingway wants to take it to the next level, and wants to spend his time cutting and pasting for no other reason then to bait me.

you think questioning what appear to be ridiculous statements is baiting? it couldn't be because you're making ridiculous claims and conclusions, and that someone is busting you on them, could it?

Grot 6 wrote:And all of this because I don't want to use an unknown painting service, from china?

it's more because people are explaining to you that there are good reasons to use those services. take it or leave it.

Grot 6 wrote:Whatever dude. Keep on throwing those insults, they are so very clever.

i haven't insulted you; you can't claim the same, however: demeaning my country and cultural heritage by suggesting that canada and china are the same place, and that during my time in china i was a ricefarmer.

Grot 6 wrote:Next time why don't you repost the whole thought, instead of nit-picking my reply to your rantings to make yourself look like you have something to say.

because point-by-point is typically the best way to deal with a series of egregious claims.

Grot 6 wrote:Once again, Hemmingway wants to take it to the next level, and wants to spend his time cutting and pasting for no other reason then to bait me.

Asking you to explain your position (a position that started out hostile and has grown increasingly strident along the way for no apparent reasin) is not 'baiting you'... It's how discussion works.


But if you find yourself unable to discuss the issue in a rational and civil manner, than yes, leaving the thread alone would be a very good idea. You're entitled to your opinion. Nobody is forcing you to change it, and the fact that some other posters do not share your apparent distrust of Chinese painters is in no way a personal attack or a sign of anybody trying to violate your right to believe whatever the hell you want to believe.

Just for the record I want to point out I'm from England...I live in China.

I have removed several posts that served no purpose other than to escalate the silliness.

I think it's time to lock this thread for a while to give people time to calm down a little...